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  #221  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:14
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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*sigh*
I got you- it's just that, you know, people are different, you know? Lots of people don't want kids. Lots of people don't want to marry. Lots don't want a girlfriend or boyfriend. Lots do want all of the above. Lots frown upon pornography (and then look at it anyway ), lots frown upon prostitution.

Ya dig? So it becomes tricky to say something is wrong. Universally fundamentally wrong. Thus the handy visual aids with the burning car. Save man from fire= good. Put man in fire= bad. Hurt children= bad (memories of the 16 year age limit for hookering thread...). Tell people they are not allowed to do something with their body that they choose to... this camper says: bad.
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  #222  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:17
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I guess that my biggest problem with politics is that I see so many men (even still today) base thier identities prmarily upon thier power (regardless of whether or not they are politicians (or lawyers or bankers)). And so I feel like politics only perpetuates this warped sense of male identity. Of course, I have no problem with men "embracing their power," but when they exploit their own power in lieu of their intelligence or integrity, then as a man, I am rather offended.

Sadly, though, many of these men probably come from societies in which the women already expect that of them (according to thier power). And so they are just victims of thier own culutre (as perhaps we all are).

But then I guess understanding that allows us to raise above it.
Well, I certainly won't deny that there seems to be a correlation between politics and "prostitution" (especially when considering campaign funds...)
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  #223  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:23
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I realize that the tl;dr effect is great on posts over a few lines and without pics.



The above is right. I think we all agree.



The above is wrong. I think we all agree.


But, is walking past a burning car and not helping the bloke underneath right or wrong? Probably wrong? If paying for sex is wrong, is it not also wrong to not actively save the girls on the corner? How much distance is needed to justify inaction?
I would say personal choice. I personally would be directing rescue efforts from a safe distance because I just can't risk my loved ones ending up without me. I commend the people on their bravery though.
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  #224  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:30
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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This is a globally relevant discussion, no? No need to be anal here. I used an example from a westernized nation because that's best case.
Uh? Your failure to cite a case relevant to Zürich would seem to support my argument that Zürich police do take it seriously. The fact that your example doesn't come from anywhere remotely near Zürich but had to come from Canada would suggest an extreme paucity of better examples and hence strengthen my argument rather than yours.

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Sure. It's why abusers, pedophiles, thieves, serial killers and the like are so easy to spot. Riiiight.
Statistically speaking and percentage-wise, there are extremely few people in those categories (except thieves, but I don't don't see how they are relevant here). That is why they hit the news in such a big way when they do. When a paedophile gets caught the press can go on for weeks. If a burglar gets caught it probably won't make the newspapers at all. It's the extreme rarity of the event that makes the newsworthiness. But apart from that, my original statement was that prostitutes get abuse becuase they deal with absuve and primitive people. I don't know how your diversion here proves me wrong. So I really don't know where this argument is taking you.
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  #225  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:35
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I would say personal choice. I personally would be directing rescue efforts from a safe distance because I just can't risk my loved ones ending up without me. I commend the people on their bravery though.
ah, a politician.
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  #226  
Old 22.09.2011, 13:02
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

Visiting a prostitute is wrong for the same reason that shagging a hopelessly drunk woman is wrong: you cannot be sure that any consent given is informed consent, freely given.
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  #227  
Old 22.09.2011, 13:11
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Visiting a prostitute is wrong for the same reason that shagging a hopelessly drunk woman is wrong: you cannot be sure that any consent given is informed consent, freely given.
All you need to know...

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  #228  
Old 22.09.2011, 13:28
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Visiting a prostitute is wrong for the same reason that shagging a hopelessly drunk woman is wrong: you cannot be sure that any consent given is informed consent, freely given.
What about :
  • disrespect for your own partner and their trust in you
  • consequences of supporting a trade which has destroyed and continues to destroy the lives of many many people men , women & children
  • spreading STDs - especially herpes
I have total respect for the person who does several low paying menial labour jobs rather than engage in this practice. My Mum helps the kids of prostitutes and a more abused and neglected bunch of souls I've yet to encounter.
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  #229  
Old 23.09.2011, 11:29
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

Sorry but this bites right back to that thread you started on Religion, commerce.... Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

In which you stated "if there is a demand for something, someone will offer it. It doesn't matter what the product is..."

So, here again we have a legal industry, as I pointed out in the other thread even with underage prostitution (16-17 years), and people bring out morals, religion, or whatever to counteract it. On the other hand, rape, I believe is illegal.


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I've just noticed this, and feel obliged to comment.

Many years ago, when working in a rough part of Wolverhampton, I was approached by a prostitute looking for 'business'. I was neither broke nor engaged. I politely refused.

I refused because paying for sex with strangers who may be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees is wrong - to some extent because most of those strangers are not enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees - but mainly because it's just plain wrong. But absolute morals are a bit unfashionable these days, so I'll leave that argument for a while.

So... returning to the notion that some of these women might be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees, could we not argue that, by extension, rape is fine, too? After all, many women, supposedly, fantasise about it, enjoy it, want it.

Never mind that most of them don't, surely it must be ok, going by the logic used in support of prostitution presented by some people in this thread, no?

As Odile observed above: if you visit a prostitute, do you interview her first to establish that she's one of these mythical creatures who are enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay her college fees, or do you just get down to it without regard for the irritating and inconvenient facts of prostitution?

I eagerly await your responses.
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  #230  
Old 23.09.2011, 11:55
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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What about :
  • disrespect for your own partner and their trust in you
  • consequences of supporting a trade which has destroyed and continues to destroy the lives of many many people men , women & children
  • spreading STDs - especially herpes
I have total respect for the person who does several low paying menial labour jobs rather than engage in this practice. My Mum helps the kids of prostitutes and a more abused and neglected bunch of souls I've yet to encounter.
What about the handicapped and people who otherwise have liitle to zero chance of ever getting casual sex or starting a relationship. Aren't prostitutes providing a service there? In Holland health insurance will even contribute towards the costs of the service in certain situations.

I would say it's morally wrong for people in a relationship to visit a prostitute. But for others the argument is weaker. Just because some or many are slaves, does this mean that it must be that way. Isn't this a problem for the law and the police to sort out? Slaves used to pick cotton but cotton wasn't outlawed because of it.
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  #231  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:04
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Sorry but this bites right back to that thread you started on Religion, commerce....
That is excellently observed, but I don't think we can really compare kosher chocolate to an industry which is founded on the abuse of women, can we?
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  #232  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:14
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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That is excellently observed, but I don't think we can really compare kosher chocolate to an industry which is founded on the abuse of women, can we?
Here we go again.....
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  #233  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:14
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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That is excellently observed, but I don't think we can really compare kosher chocolate to an industry which is founded on the abuse of women, can we?
DB, you should know EF is like the Red Queen, and we have barely passed breakfast...
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  #234  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:16
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

Some of us were hoping (yes I know - how naive) that in the 21st Century commerce would be about 'things and services' not about 'people'. Yes I know, many will consider prostitution a service - but for me primarily it is about people - and just another form of slavery. Slavery to drugs too, or even for some who choose to do so, slavery to label consumerism (Gucci bags and luxury goods).
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  #235  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:20
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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slavery to label consumerism (Gucci bags and luxury goods).
Isn't the whole concept of consumer capitalism about being enslaved to desires that somebody else is putting into your head?

That's why I don't have a TV.
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  #236  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:31
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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That is excellently observed, but I don't think we can really compare kosher chocolate to an industry which is founded on the abuse of women, can we?
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Here we go again.....
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Old 23.09.2011, 12:34
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Isn't the whole concept of consumer capitalism about being enslaved to desires that somebody else is putting into your head?
Isn't the whole concept of religion about being enslaved to ideals that somebody else is putting in your head?

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That is excellently observed, but I don't think we can really compare kosher chocolate to an industry which is founded on the abuse of women, can we?
Some people could also say that making woman wear a full headscarf in public is the abuse of women as well.
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  #238  
Old 23.09.2011, 12:50
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Isn't the whole concept of religion about being enslaved to ideals that somebody else is putting in your head?
and therefore consumerism is a religion?
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  #239  
Old 23.09.2011, 13:05
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Some people could also say that making woman wear a full headscarf in public is the abuse of women as well.
... because having to wear a bit of cloth on your head is comparable to being buggered by a businessman in the backstreets of Zurich, isn't it?
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Old 23.09.2011, 13:23
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

Isn't this what the movie the Whistleblower was all about in Bosnia? (trafficking) with alleged UN complicity via their outsourced employees?

One issue is the local attitudes where they come from and prospects.

Another is the legality in Kt. ZH for 16 year olds to sell themselves here legally. (But let's focus on muslim buildings eh?)

Additionally the fact that rates for "tricks" here are high, and there's a lot of "repeat business" amongst the local population, therefore a business case.

Also the lack of enforcement of existing laws on the street vs. legal studios.

Finally the credit given for the new boxes like in Holland in the area just socializes it all.

I guess the Swiss are happy for the market to decide. Morality is personal, if you have a choice/employment alternatives.

Would it be effective for frequent roundups to check on trafficking? Or is the flood too great?
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