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  #101  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:28
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Fascinating.

What has that got to do with their clients being exploitative, selfish bastards?
Stop wearing your nike shoes, stop using your computer.
You may not know but you are indirectly "exploiting" someone somehere who built your item for 2 francs working in some dark room with no break and lunch.
_
Selfish? i don't get this part.
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  #102  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:32
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Stop wearing your nike shoes, stop using your computer.
You may not know but you are indirectly "exploiting" someone somehere who built your item for 2 francs working in some dark room with no break and lunch.
Yeah, because that's comparable to the humiliation of being buggered by a businessman in the backstreets of Zurich, isn't it?
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  #103  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:32
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

I don't get how you don't get it - really.
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  #104  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:37
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Yeah, because that's comparable to the humiliation of being buggered by a businessman in the backstreets of Zurich, isn't it?
Seriously... it's not like this..
I have spoken to plenty of them. Whilst they don't like their job and are ashamed about what they do, they don't have your background and don't come from where you come(don't underestimate this part).
_
You don't get that i don't get it? Give permit to Nigerian prostitutes and they will be the first to open some small business.
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  #105  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:38
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Yeah, because that's comparable to the humiliation of being buggered by a businessman in the backstreets of Zurich, isn't it?
Is this some new form of gay prostitution. I've seen all the bankers in Armani suits but didn't realise that was their trade.
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  #106  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:42
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Seriously... it's not like this..
Seriously, it is.

I can't believe you are excusing the clients' behaviour because the prostitutes are poor... next you'll be justifying the transatlantic slave trade because, well, we was saving them negroes from gettin' eaten by their neighbours in Africa...
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  #107  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:43
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I don't get how you don't get it - really.
I thought we were talking about the 'selfish' part here.
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  #108  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:48
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Seriously, it is.

I can't believe you are excusing the clients' behaviour because the prostitutes are poor... next you'll be justifying the transatlantic slave trade because, well, we was saving them negroes from gettin' eaten by their neighbours in Africa...
You are talking stupid things and being offensive now.
Slaves were "forced" and i don't know or recall any volunteer between them.
_
Don't confuse things, i am against prostitute slaves and i have said it in all my posts.
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  #109  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:51
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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You are talking stupid things and being offensive now.
It would be delightful if you could explain how the fact that many of these women are poor excuses the clients from being selfish and exploitative.

Your argument is directly comparable to some of the risible arguments made for slavery in the 19th century, whether these girls are "willing" or not.
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  #110  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:51
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

Women don't grow up wanting to be prostitutes. Fathers don't raise their daughters to be prostitutes. And with good reason.

In every thread like this, you'll see attempts to justify prostitution that use the powerful, confident prostitute who rest assured is surely not being exploited. No, she is a career woman who knows what she wants and gets it. But do you really think this kind of woman represents the average prostitute? No.

And why would it? It's a system of disadvantage that leads most women into prostitution in the first place. Poverty, abuse, lack of education and the sense that there are no other options all pit prostitution as the way out. Rarely is prostitution a first resort - as I said, women don't grow up with the ambition to be prostitutes. Rather, it's a last resort when no other option seemingly exists. As a crisis volunteer, I saw what welfare and budget cuts did to women who relied on government support. They felt prostitution was the only way to prevent homelessness.

People like to buy stuff that makes them feel good. They buy a dinner out, they buy a new car or they buy a holiday. So too do they buy sex. But where the dinner, car and holiday don't harm the seller, sex does. Now comes the response citing sweatshops in developing nations. And sure enough, we as a society acknowledge the problems here and have many organizations and movements to eradicate child labor and so forth. Why do we accept prostitution and harm that comes from this commodity though? Should we care less where those prostitutes are adults? In no other profession do we see so many men attempt to justify a type of labor that can clearly cause harm.

I had a flatmate in his early 30s and married, with a 5-year-old daughter at home. He lives in Zurich weekdays and goes home to Germany on weekends. Little does his wife know he regularly visits prostitutes. It's easy sex. He'd be horrified for his daughter to prostitute herself. But herein lies the crux of otherwise 'moral' men visiting prostitutes. It's pure selfishness. Prostitutes are necessary but my daughter should never be one of them. Let someone else's daughter satisfy the needs of men.

We talk about the body as though it's so insignificant to the soul. So let's for argument's sake agree that it is. But here's the thing. A prostitute is treated as though she is only her body. She is treated as though she has no soul. And this makes it easier for a pimp or a customer to rationalize violence and abuse of a prostitute.

I started this with a few thoughts and now it feels like a thesis. In fact, I sound like some sort of feminist even. I dunno - I think my experience supporting prostitutes or women considering the profession has made this subject feel really personal.
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  #111  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:51
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I thought we were talking about the 'selfish' part here.
Explain why you think they are selfish because i don't understand it sorry..
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  #112  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:56
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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It would be delightful if you could explain how the fact that many of these women are poor excuses the clients from being selfish and exploitative.

Your argument is directly comparable to some of the risible arguments made for slavery in the 19th century, whether these girls are "willing" or not.
Please,don't even dare to compare them.
Many Afroamerican don't know their origin because of slavery and how it was done.
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  #113  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:59
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

I know of no little girl and neither do you who grows up wanting to be a prostitute. Everything's relative and there's exploitation everywhere but as a global society I think we need to make a decision about where relative exploitation stops and where absolute exploitation begins. We also need to make a decision about where freedom of choice stops and where freedom of choice in the context of absolute desperation from deprivation begins. Switzerland has so much money, perhaps they should stop making life so comfortable for the pimps who make all this money and start taking care of some of Europe's most vulnerable people.
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  #114  
Old 21.09.2011, 10:59
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Please,don't even dare to compare them.
Many Afroamerican don't know their origin because of slavery and how it was done.
You're determined to avoid the question, aren't you?

I'll try again: please explain how the fact that many of these women are poor excuses the clients from being selfish and exploitative.
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  #115  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:00
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Please,don't even dare to compare them.
Many Afroamerican don't know their origin because of slavery and how it was done.
Of course it's comparable. Show me a prostitute who's rolling in cash. Prostitution is done out of desperation, and many prostitutes would be killed if they fled.
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  #116  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:00
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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We talk about the body as though it's so insignificant to the soul. So let's for argument's sake agree that it is. But here's the thing. A prostitute is treated as though she is only her body. She is treated as though she has no soul. And this makes it easier for a pimp or a customer to rationalize violence and abuse of a prostitute.
Well, I would say that having prostitution legal is aimed at getting rid of pimps and violence. To actually recognise that prostitutes are human beings, equal to the same protections as anyone else under law.
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  #117  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:04
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Well, I would say that having prostitution legal is aimed at getting rid of pimps and violence. To actually recognise that prostitutes are human beings, equal to the same protections as anyone else under law.
The very act of prostitution constitutes evidence of failed state protection of the vulnerable. Protection of prostitution is a nonsense. There should be absolutely zero tolerance of prostitution in the same way as there's zero tolerance of child labour.
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  #118  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:06
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

Popular culture glamourizes prostitution, while in fact it is mostly human trafficking and modern-day slavery. This is a sad fact and a dark shadow of humanity.
The social order which allows certain things to happen is a reflection of the human nature in general. Are we, humans, inherently violent? A number of influential thinkers have answered positively to this question.
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  #119  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:06
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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People like to buy stuff that makes them feel good. They buy a dinner out, they buy a new car or they buy a holiday. So too do they buy sex. But where the dinner, car and holiday don't harm the seller, sex does. Now comes the response citing sweatshops in developing nations. And sure enough, we as a society acknowledge the problems here and have many organizations and movements to eradicate child labor and so forth. Why do we accept prostitution and harm that comes from this commodity though? Should we care less where those prostitutes are adults? In no other profession do we see so many men attempt to justify a type of labor that can clearly cause harm.
But isn't this about the visisble versus the invisible.
Every time we go to Langstrasse to get a kebab or shop in the ethnic stores there we see prostitutes, and usually they are the same ones in the same places so after a while we get to recognise them and ask ourselves, who are they? why are they here? what terrible things must have happened to them that they have to do this? are they trafficked or are they here of their own will? will they ever get away and have a normal life? Nobody with a heart can pass them by without thinking such things. They affect us because we see them and know they are for real.

Now the kids in China and India how make your Adidas shoes and Dolce and Gabana handbags and iPods are not visible in the same way. You may have heard about them but they're distant and more theoretical. It's more difficult to feel emotional about them because you haven't seen them.

But just because you can't see them, that doesn't affect the right or wrong of it. It's not difficult to not use a prostitute. But it is more difficult to not buy clothes or electronics. There are alternatives, such as fair trade products etc, but these are more expensive. How many people let the budget decide what they buy and ignore the suffering they are supporting?
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  #120  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:09
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Well, I would say that having prostitution legal is aimed at getting rid of pimps and violence. To actually recognise that prostitutes are human beings, equal to the same protections as anyone else under law.
Legally, maybe. Reality, doubtful. It doesn't change that a man is using a woman for her body and nothing else. If he knows her job is legal and there are police involved, he may be less likely to show violence. But that's out of fear, not because he sees her as a human being. Don't assume that less violence stems from a changed perception.
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