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  #121  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:09
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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But just because you can't see them, that doesn't affect the right or wrong of it. It's not difficult to not use a prostitute. But it is more difficult to not buy clothes or electronics. There are alterbatives, such as fair trade products etc, but these are more expensive. How many people let the budget decide what they buy and ignore the suffering they are supporting?
Too many. But you point really isn't relevant. Saying that exploitation happens everywhere doesn't excuse exploitation happening anywhere. Some of the worst exploitation imaginable is happening in our own neighbourhoods. We'll get to China when we get to China, but let's start right here by accepting what's unacceptable.
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  #122  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:10
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I know of no little girl and neither do you who grows up wanting to be a prostitute. Everything's relative and there's exploitation everywhere but as a global society I think we need to make a decision about where relative exploitation stops and where absolute exploitation begins. We also need to make a decision about where freedom of choice stops and where freedom of choice in the context of absolute desperation from deprivation begins. Switzerland has so much money, perhaps they should stop making life so comfortable for the pimps who make all this money and start taking care of some of Europe's most vulnerable people.

Many children don't want to grow up to clean toilets either, many, many people don't grow up to be what they want to be as kids. While prostitution has a massive seedy underside that needs to be tackled severely, it's never going to be done by pretending prostitution will go away. There are women who see it as a quick and easy buck, despite what their fathers might think about it.
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  #123  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:10
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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You're determined to avoid the question, aren't you?

I'll try again: please explain how the fact that many of these women are poor excuses the clients from being selfish and exploitative.
You are not interested to contribute to this thread but only to be "right".
I know a LOT about this world more than you do(i'm 100% sure) and really some of the prostitutes are "exploiting" the rich men, not the other way round.
They are not all exploited. This was my point.
_
Don't bring slavery in this thread because it's different. My poor English unfortunately don't allow me to write 20000 words papyrus about it.
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  #124  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:11
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Nobody with a heart can pass them by without thinking such things.
Seems many folk today don't have a heart then...
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  #125  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:11
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Many children don't want to grow up to clean toilets either, many, many people don't grow up to be what they want to be as kids. While prostitution has a massive seedy underside that needs to be tackled severely, it's never going to be done by pretending prostitution will go away. There are women who see it as a quick and easy buck, despite what their fathers might think about it.
Child labour went away, so could prostitution, if the people that made the laws weren't 60 year old white men who dream of sleeping with 18 year old Eastern European women.
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  #126  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:12
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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The very act of prostitution constitutes evidence of failed state protection of the vulnerable. Protection of prostitution is a nonsense. There should be absolutely zero tolerance of prostitution in the same way as there's zero tolerance of child labour.
What, because all women are vulnerable in the same way as children?
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  #127  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:12
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Of course it's comparable. Show me a prostitute who's rolling in cash. Prostitution is done out of desperation, and many prostitutes would be killed if they fled.
Come in Milan and i will show you an ex prostitue who now have many businesses in Brazil.

p.s: Do you know some men became "trans" because the market is BIG?
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  #128  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:13
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I know a LOT about this world more than you do
Well, there we are, then.

Argument won because you know more about the world than what I do.

Now, how about answering the question?

Please explain how the fact that many of these women are poor excuses the clients from being selfish and exploitative.
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  #129  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:14
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Legally, maybe. Reality, doubtful. It doesn't change that a man is using a woman for her body and nothing else. If he knows her job is legal and there are police involved, he may be less likely to show violence. But that's out of fear, not because he sees her as a human being. Don't assume that less violence stems from a changed perception.
Doesn't any job redce us to one aspect of ourselves.

Isn't a cashier in a supermarket reduced to her ability to scan codes and handle cash? Does anybody care for her poetry or her philosphical vision?

Isn't a bus driver reduced to his ability to drive a bus? Does anybody care about the person behind the man behind the wheel?

Isn't a fund manager reduced to his ability to understand economics and the stock excahnge and to deliver the ebst benefits for his customers? Does anybody care about the other sides of his soul or want to know who he really is?
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  #130  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:15
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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You are not interested to contribute to this thread but only to be "right".
I know a LOT about this world more than you do(i'm 100% sure)
Wait... are we now playing "I Know more about the underworld than you because I'm from.. X"?

Coz I'm from Tj, and I tell you those donkeys don't seem happy at all....
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  #131  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:16
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Many children don't want to grow up to clean toilets either, many, many people don't grow up to be what they want to be as kids.
Cleaning toilets doesn't put a woman and her family at risk the way prostitution does. It doesn't put a woman in a vulnerable position that strongly exposes her to disease, violence and financial exploitation (I can only wait for someone to compare it to a crisis worker in Zimbabwe or a nurse now). It's precisely why arguments trying to rationalize prostitution by attempting to draw comparisons with hated jobs such as cleaning toilets just don't work imho.
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  #132  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:16
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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What, because all women are vulnerable in the same way as children?
A 20 year old woman who has sex with people for money is more vulnerable than most children, especially those from supportive families. Your narrow, naive logic is making you blind.
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  #133  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:18
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

On a side note taken form a quality newspaper-

Not such a Pretty Woman: Mother dresses girl aged THREE as prostitute in Toddlers and Tiaras pageant Read more:
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  #134  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:18
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

I see the word 'exploitation' used a lot in these posts. I also see a common and somewhat fashionable wealthy western view of these women as being 'slaves' or human traffic. The reality is many of these women consciously decide to come and solicit business in Zurich and other wealthy cities - just as almost all of us on this forum do. Perceptions vary hugely depending on life experience, background, personal morality and geography.

I am aware that there are parts of the world and of society which regard working in the current financial sector, pharmaceuticals industry, tobacco trade etc. as being less morally acceptable, and the employees of such as no less 'exploited' than prostitutes. Yes there is generally a huge stigma in western society surrounding paid sex - but how about turning some of the moral scrutiny on ourselves and our aquaintances and the way we earn our livings? The reality is a lot of it is far from pretty - I would argue that morally dubious undertakings occur on the Bahnhofstrasse as well as Sihlquai.

As far as the women go I find it easier understanding and empathising with their life decisions and motivations for following this trade than I do trying to understand the thinking (lack of?) of many of their clients.

Porsitution is not known as the oldest profession for nothing. Make it illegal and it certainly won't cease. At least the way Zurich handles it, if I understand correctly, there are non-profit organisations who offer support to these women which just would not be there if the activity was forced underground.
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  #135  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:21
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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A 20 year old woman who has sex with people for money is more vulnerable than most children, especially those from supportive families. Your narrow, naive logic is making you blind.
You view is also very narrow. Why don't you pick a career for her? Making prostituion illegal is not going to make her any less vulnerable.
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  #136  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:21
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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A 20 year old woman who has sex with people for money is more vulnerable than most children, especially those from supportive families. Your narrow, naive logic is making you blind.
Not sure about that. Both are vulnerable but a child is vulnerable on a much greater level I would say.
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  #137  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:21
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Well, there we are, then.

Argument won because you know more about the world than what I do.

Now, how about answering the question?

Please explain how the fact that many of these women are poor excuses the clients from being selfish and exploitative.
exploitative and selfish? i asked you to explain the "selfish" part since english is not my first language.
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  #138  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:22
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Doesn't any job redce us to one aspect of ourselves.

Isn't a cashier in a supermarket reduced to her ability to scan codes and handle cash? Does anybody care for her poetry or her philosphical vision?

Isn't a bus driver reduced to his ability to drive a bus? Does anybody care about the person behind the man behind the wheel?

Isn't a fund manager reduced to his ability to understand economics and the stock excahnge and to deliver the ebst benefits for his customers? Does anybody care about the other sides of his soul or want to know who he really is?
No to all of the above. You're missing the point. We still treat these people like human beings. Prostitutes are treated like whores. It's not about wanting to know who somebody is. It's about accepting that they are somebody without knowing anything about them. And a cashier, bus driver and fund manager get this basic human respect in ways that prostitutes do not. Even the police are guilty of this conduct. A beaten prostitute will not garner the same attention and care as a beaten cashier, bus driver or fund manager.

Treating someone as a human being is not about caring to know all about them. It's respecting that they're someone without needing to know a darn thing. Prostitutes are susceptible to abuse and violence because they aren't seen as more than a body. They're whores, not people. And prostitution as a whole perpetuates stereotypes and treatment of women that shifts them into subservient positions in the home and the workplace (that's a whole extra can of worms though).
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  #139  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:23
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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and what about Judah the fourth son of Jacob, who has sex with his son's widow Tamar who pretended to be a prostitute.... It was a big drama... he wanting to kill Tamar, but admitting being the father of Tamar's twins.... He repented, of course... saving his knackers from the vice, and perhaps now in heaven too.....
I'll bite. What about Judah? Well, since we're quoting the whole Bible, do you remember why Tamar resorted to prostitution (to just this one man on just one occasion)? I'm sure you do, but since everyone else is dying to know... it was because Judah was denying her the right to protection that should have been hers. Quick run-down of marital law in ancient Israel: if your husband dies, his brother marries you, so that you will not be destitute or have to resort to... er, prostitution. Tamar had been married to several of Judah's sons, who all died one by one, and Judah was more or less withholding his youngest son from her (afraid he might die too, presumably). So she threw his selfish exploitative behaviour in his face by doing exactly what he was supposed to protect her from. And then showing proof that he was the one who had exploited her. Thus completely ruining his reputation - how's that for knackers in a vice?

The fact that he repented is neither here nor there when it comes to the fact, as DB said, that people who use prostitutes are . They were in Judah's day and they are now. (Incidentally, if I murdered one of your loved ones but then repented, would that make it ok? Life isn't all about who goes to heaven y'know, so we can leave that aspect out of it.)

All done. I'm not American, what's the British equivalent of Alabama?
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  #140  
Old 21.09.2011, 11:23
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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You view is also very narrow. Why don't you pick a career for her? Making prostituion illegal is not going to make her any less vulnerable.
Sorry mate, my toilet is dirty. I was going to have unprotected sex in a dirty room far from my village with a sweaty businessman for 50 francs but I opted to clean the toilet instead. Which is roughly equivalent.
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