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  #21  
Old 21.09.2014, 18:30
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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exactly. I do not see any reason to not adapt if you go somewhere. If you move to US or to Russia, you either have to adapt to their values or you just die on the street because there is no social system to catch you.

I do not say that Russia or US should be the role model but indeed it helps immigrants to be motivated to adapt...

In Switzerland, the flag of the Union and the flag of your Canton in combination are both a Tradition and a vital part of the national identity. And NOT subject to change
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  #22  
Old 21.09.2014, 20:13
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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exactly. I do not see any reason to not adapt if you go somewhere. If you move to US or to Russia, you either have to adapt to their values or you just die on the street because there is no social system to catch you.
Depends on the state, some US states have fairly elaborate state-provided or subsidized medical care, WIC programs etc.; there is nobody dying of starvation in Maine.
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  #23  
Old 21.09.2014, 21:04
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

If you live in Ukraine, the Russian state comes to you whether you like it or not.

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exactly. I do not see any reason to not adapt if you go somewhere. If you move to US or to Russia, you either have to adapt to their values or you just die on the street because there is no social system to catch you.

I do not say that Russia or US should be the role model but indeed it helps immigrants to be motivated to adapt...
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  #24  
Old 21.09.2014, 21:31
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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In Switzerland, the flag of the Union and the flag of your Canton in combination are both a Tradition and a vital part of the national identity. And NOT subject to change
Oh no. Does that mean my watch is illegal? Are Swatch going to be shut-down for treason?
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/swatch-d...s-swiss-humor/
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  #25  
Old 21.09.2014, 22:46
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Oh no. Does that mean my watch is illegal? Are Swatch going to be shut-down for treason?
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/swatch-d...s-swiss-humor/


no reason for panic
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  #26  
Old 21.09.2014, 22:49
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Transgressions are punishable by being forced to put Maggi Gewurz on all your food.

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In Switzerland, the flag of the Union and the flag of your Canton in combination are both a Tradition and a vital part of the national identity. And NOT subject to change
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  #27  
Old 22.09.2014, 00:01
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Transgressions are punishable by being forced to put Maggi Gewurz on all your food.

It may be mentioned that Mr Maggi was an immigrant from Italy, while Mr Nestle came from the Schwarzwald
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  #28  
Old 22.09.2014, 00:43
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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It may be mentioned that Mr Maggi was an immigrant from Italy, while Mr Nestle came from the Schwarzwald
Well, Julius Maggi was born in Frauenfeld. That may be called Campo Delle Donne in Italian, but it's still in Switzerland. His father was an immigrant from Monza, Italy, though, but his mother, nťe Esslinger, was the daughter of a politician in Zurich.
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  #29  
Old 22.09.2014, 08:34
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Well, Julius Maggi was born in Frauenfeld. That may be called Campo Delle Donne in Italian, but it's still in Switzerland. His father was an immigrant from Monza, Italy, though, but his mother, nťe Esslinger, was the daughter of a politician in Zurich.
I am not sure which conclusion should I draw after reading your post. Having a Swiss mother, and a daughter of a politician from ZŁrich at that, makes a true ethnic Swiss (is there such a thing) out of Mr. Maggi? Suppose the immigrant Italian father's contribution is secondary and should be disregarded then. Details.
But whatever, I have noticed that most developed countries simply erase the identities of successful immigrants, so if you are a nuisance and a trouble-maker immediately your origins are brought into light, whereas none says a word about anything "foreign" when it comes to a mathematician, engineer, artist etc
If one is a trouble-maker it becomes "obvious" that it is so because of his origins, of course, how else, but if one is more than just decent, rather exceptional....well, you got the idea.

Back to the OP, though. Swiss flag is nice and I personally don't see the need to be changed. I don't even think that immigrants should have a say in this matter.
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  #30  
Old 22.09.2014, 08:50
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I don't even think that immigrants should have a say in this matter.
I think that flags as well as any other national symbols should be decided democratically. This includes the naturalised immigrants... sooner or later they'll turn the flag into a minus
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  #31  
Old 22.09.2014, 08:56
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I am not sure which conclusion should I draw after reading your post. Having a Swiss mother, and a daughter of a politician from ZŁrich at that, makes a true ethnic Swiss (is there such a thing) out of Mr. Maggi? Suppose the immigrant Italian father's contribution is secondary and should be disregarded then. Details.
But whatever, I have noticed that most developed countries simply erase the identities of successful immigrants, so if you are a nuisance and a trouble-maker immediately your origins are brought into light, whereas none says a word about anything "foreign" when it comes to a mathematician, engineer, artist etc
If one is a trouble-maker it becomes "obvious" that it is so because of his origins, of course, how else, but if one is more than just decent, rather exceptional....well, you got the idea.

Back to the OP, though. Swiss flag is nice and I personally don't see the need to be changed. I don't even think that immigrants should have a say in this matter.
I certainly know in the USA almost everyone seems to be talking about Chinese and Indian immigrants flooding the science and math based fields. And if you are Indian or Chinese here, I have heard people talk about those two groups as they must be here because they must be cheaper then a Swiss employee. Fact is, almost all Indians I know working in Switzerland are by no means cheaper then anyone local. But, the assumption is that they are, and I haven't heard any positive comments to that effect.
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  #32  
Old 22.09.2014, 09:16
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I certainly know in the USA almost everyone seems to be talking about Chinese and Indian immigrants flooding the science and math based fields. And if you are Indian or Chinese here, I have heard people talk about those two groups as they must be here because they must be cheaper then a Swiss employee. Fact is, almost all Indians I know working in Switzerland are by no means cheaper then anyone local. But, the assumption is that they are, and I haven't heard any positive comments to that effect.
Well, that doesn't really surprise me, in the USA almost every country/nationality has a different image, closer to reality, than the caricature-like images and perceptions Western Europeans enjoy having about different groups. I have heard so many stories, especially from the academic related fields, when it actually was an advantage to be from a specific location... no wonder America attracts so many brains and people that want to do something. It seems they value more people in general, whereas Europe is all about preconceptions. And it is funny (in a way) at the same time to see the nostalgia and illusions many Americans have about the old continent.
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Old 22.09.2014, 09:28
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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It seems they value more people in general, whereas Europe is all about preconceptions.
Have you ever been to the US?
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  #34  
Old 22.09.2014, 09:41
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Have you ever been to the US?
Cute. I wouldn't have spoken otherwise, but thank you anyway.

Of course everyone knows the segment they get into contact with, but I'm afraid that in Western Europe we don't have, at least, anything like it. Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. It surprised be the level of ignorance in places I would have never thought of finding it here.
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Old 22.09.2014, 10:01
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I wouldn't have spoken otherwise
That's hardly standard EF practice.
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  #36  
Old 22.09.2014, 11:26
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I am not sure which conclusion should I draw after reading your post. Having a Swiss mother, and a daughter of a politician from ZŁrich at that, makes a true ethnic Swiss (is there such a thing) out of Mr. Maggi? Suppose the immigrant Italian father's contribution is secondary and should be disregarded then. Details.
Wolli wrote that the inventor of Maggi WŁrze was an immigrant. An immigrant is someone who immigrates or has immigrated. The inventor wasn't an immigrant; not even both his parents were, only his father was.

That's all. No judging, no assessing, no assuming, no supposing. Just correcting a little error.
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Old 22.09.2014, 17:06
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I certainly know in the USA almost everyone seems to be talking about Chinese and Indian immigrants flooding the science and math based fields.
A couple of years ago I had dinner with the CEO of a medium-sized US technology company, who was himself of Chinese origin. We were discussing the large number of Chinese scientists he had working in R&D and he said that he would love to hire more Americans but there just weren't very many who had the required qualifications and the relevant subjects were not sufficiently popular in American universities.

The way he said it made it sound quite apologetic, as if it would actually be better to hire Americans but we have to make do with these Chinese.

So this coming from the lion's mouth, it seems in America too, the development is seen as one of necessity rather than one of choice.

Of course one of the reasons these university courses are not as popular as they could be is perception of low salary. So in that case, hiring Chinese rather than upping salaries is indeed a question of cost.

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And if you are Indian or Chinese here, I have heard people talk about those two groups as they must be here because they must be cheaper then a Swiss employee. Fact is, almost all Indians I know working in Switzerland are by no means cheaper then anyone local. But, the assumption is that they are, and I haven't heard any positive comments to that effect.
That's not the impression I'm getting. Maybe Indians may work their way to higher salaries over time, but their initial salaries are often low. Several Indians that I know are actually on expat contracts working for Indian companies on Indian salaries, but of course with basic costs covered outside of the salary. Once they are trained and up to speed, many of these jobs will be relocated to India. So cost is indeed a driver here.
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  #38  
Old 22.09.2014, 17:17
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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A couple of years ago I had dinner with the CEO of a medium-sized US technology company, who was himself of Chinese origin. We were discussing the large number of Chinese scientists he had working in R&D and he said that he would love to hire more Americans but there just weren't very many who had the required qualifications and the relevant subjects were not sufficiently popular in American universities.

The way he said it made it sound quite apologetic, as if it would actually be better to hire Americans but we have to make do with these Chinese.

So this coming from the lion's mouth, it seems in America too, the development is seen as one of necessity rather than one of choice.

Of course one of the reasons these university courses are not as popular as they could be is perception of low salary. So in that case, hiring Chinese rather than upping salaries is indeed a question of cost.



That's not the impression I'm getting. Maybe Indians may work their way to higher salaries over time, but their initial salaries are often low. Several Indians that I know are actually on expat contracts working for Indian companies on Indian salaries, but of course with basic costs covered outside of the salary. Once they are trained and up to speed, many of these jobs will be relocated to India. So cost is indeed a driver here.
As per the Lion's mouth comment...the problem is, is that it is hard to encourage American high school students to choose these fields, when there was such a large inundation of cheap Chinese and Indians to the market there, jamming down salaries to a pittance. I know it very well. Coming from a family of people educated in engineering, science, and economics. It's a hot topic of discussion at half time football. The reason we have so many 1/2 assed "Chinese" restaurants in the US, is because they come to be educated there, find a way to stay on student visas, but cannot find a job in their field, or from abroad, so they open Chinese restaurants until they get hired. Go to the Midwest, and ask how many Chinese restaurant owners have degrees in math. You will see, the US has shot themselves in the foot with importing cheap intelligence. So, how do you convince a genius 17 year old to become an electrical engineer or the like at 30 to 40k a year? You don't.

ALL of the Indians I know that work for UBS, Novartis, Credit Suisse, are making no less then 20k a month. Maybe I am so much out of reality that I do not realize that is the bare bottom salary, but for me it is a lot.
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  #39  
Old 22.09.2014, 18:24
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Foreigners who come to Switzerland, only to complain about it first struck me as possibly insightful. Then I realize they are just immature. For a time, they started to annoy me, and then just deserved my pity. But now I think they are ridiculous. Therefore, I think I'll just now laugh at them.

I mean, FFS, why go through all the trouble of coming to Switzerland only to realize it isn't some strange fantasy they had of the place? The flag might be more fitting for Swaziland. Did they perhaps punch in the wrong abbreviation? How tragic, yet so laughable. Buahahaha
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Old 22.09.2014, 19:04
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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So, how do you convince a genius 17 year old to become an electrical engineer or the like at 30 to 40k a year? You don't.
.
Sorry, but what are the alternatives? What all those people who could do well in this field should do? Or are doing.
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