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  #41  
Old 22.09.2014, 19:13
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Foreigners who come to Switzerland, only to complain about it first struck me as possibly insightful. Then I realize they are just immature. For a time, they started to annoy me, and then just deserved my pity. But now I think they are ridiculous. Therefore, I think I'll just now laugh at them.

I mean, FFS, why go through all the trouble of coming to Switzerland only to realize it isn't some strange fantasy they had of the place? The flag might be more fitting for Swaziland. Did they perhaps punch in the wrong abbreviation? How tragic, yet so laughable. Buahahaha
Why, indeed? But one can hardly blame the foreigners for falling for it, can one?

As you yourself said:

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The Swiss market their country all over the world as a perfect and orderly happy go lucky place. Yet it seems someone forgot to tell the locals here. It just struck me that the Swiss never even bother to communicate to immigrants any of their expectations on how to behave, or how "Swissness" is defined, yet they hold them accountable for it. I think this communication gap is at the root of the issue. Because of this lack of communication, the only way to really gain endearment from them is to be willing to kiss their other pair of cheeks. And I see many people deciding that they don't really need to do this.
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  #42  
Old 22.09.2014, 19:26
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Why, indeed? But one can hardly blame the foreigners for falling for it, can one?

As you yourself said:
And so they should blame the Swiss? Hahaha

meh, at some point, people need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves. It's one of the biggest favors people can do for themselves.

Unhappy and miserable in Switzerland? Good! Congratulations, because you did it to yourself. Buahahaha

Taking personal responsibility is one of the most empowering actions one can take.
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  #43  
Old 22.09.2014, 21:30
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Well, Julius Maggi was born in Frauenfeld. That may be called Campo Delle Donne in Italian, but it's still in Switzerland. His father was an immigrant from Monza, Italy, though, but his mother, nťe Esslinger, was the daughter of a politician in Zurich.

> a SECONDO
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  #44  
Old 23.09.2014, 03:22
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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The way he said it made it sound quite apologetic, as if it would actually be better to hire Americans but we have to make do with these Chinese.
That's the same the world over - and I sound the same sort of apologetic when I talk about my last job: I spend the last couple of years building up an IT team in Singapore (changed my job this year so no applications anymore...). I would have preferred to hire locals. And cost is not always the main driver - I think it is important to have a rather stable core team. If some people come and go is it ok, but you really need a couple of people who are unlikely to move to another country.
Long story short: within two years and some twenty rounds of hiring a person did I hire two locals and 18 or so immigrants. And I openly admit that I hired one of the two only because I had a strong bias towards his nationality... I simple did not receive any applications from local candidates while I got swamped by CVs mostly from India but also the Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam. The bottom line is that locals only want to work in famous large MNCs which have a certain prestige. Ideally in the financial sector, but something the size of Microsoft or Facebook is also ok... what really gets me is that you have the same discussions the world over: people complain about all the immigrants and how "they are taking our jobs" but are honestly not even applying for said jobs...
Just try to open a service business like a restaurant in Zurich with only Swiss nationals...
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  #45  
Old 23.09.2014, 05:38
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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That's the same the world over - and I sound the same sort of apologetic when I talk about my last job: I spend the last couple of years building up an IT team in Singapore (changed my job this year so no applications anymore...). I would have preferred to hire locals. And cost is not always the main driver - I think it is important to have a rather stable core team. If some people come and go is it ok, but you really need a couple of people who are unlikely to move to another country.
Long story short: within two years and some twenty rounds of hiring a person did I hire two locals and 18 or so immigrants. And I openly admit that I hired one of the two only because I had a strong bias towards his nationality... I simple did not receive any applications from local candidates while I got swamped by CVs mostly from India but also the Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam. The bottom line is that locals only want to work in famous large MNCs which have a certain prestige. Ideally in the financial sector, but something the size of Microsoft or Facebook is also ok... what really gets me is that you have the same discussions the world over: people complain about all the immigrants and how "they are taking our jobs" but are honestly not even applying for said jobs...
Just try to open a service business like a restaurant in Zurich with only Swiss nationals...


a Restaurant in ZŁrich with only Swiss nationals as employees is an Oxymoron
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  #46  
Old 23.09.2014, 07:25
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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... what really gets me is that you have the same discussions the world over: people complain about all the immigrants and how "they are taking our jobs" but are honestly not even applying for said jobs...
...
...and also the theory that youngsters are hard to persuade to follow a certain path of studies because of the low salaries in the field. I mean, the lack of enough people trained in a specific field was the cause for bringing in those "cheap" immigrants in the first place, I should think.

Ta ta. Cheap intelligence. I have never though of finding them in the same sentence, but here you are.
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Old 23.09.2014, 09:40
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Ta ta. Cheap intelligence. I have never though of finding them in the same sentence, but here you are.
Fun fact: I am not that cheap. And neither are any other specialists you need to import because you told your kids that being a banker is the smarter choice...
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  #48  
Old 23.09.2014, 10:26
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Sorry, but what are the alternatives? What all those people who could do well in this field should do? Or are doing.
The alternative is to not make it so easy for students to study abroad and stay in the host country after their education is over. The alternatives? Well we seem to have a booming video game industry right?
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Old 23.09.2014, 10:33
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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a Restaurant in ZŁrich with only Swiss nationals as employees is an Oxymoron
I do notice that especially in smaller establishments you do see a lot of staff who at least make the impression of being local. I haven't inspected their papers of course.
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Old 23.09.2014, 10:35
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I do notice that especially in smaller establishments you do see a lot of staff who at least make the impression of being local. I haven't inspected their papers of course.
Including the cooks, kitchen staff and cleaners?
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  #51  
Old 23.09.2014, 10:36
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Fun fact: I am not that cheap. And neither are any other specialists you need to import because you told your kids that being a banker is the smarter choice...
Ah yes, but reality doesn't come into it. It's the perception that certain jobs don't pay well that drives the talent elsewhere.

If we could find a way to encourage database specialists to splash more money on champaigne in cool and hip clubs, that might be the beginning of change.

Even if your Indian IT guy is (supposedly) making 20K a month, as long as he wears a mix of Indian and C&A clothes, drives a second-hand Mazda, lives in a crappy appartment in deepest agglo-land and eats microwave food in the office, people are going to think he's on a cheap salary and accordingly assume their boss is practicing wage dumping.

If on the other hand, bankers could learn a bit from that lifestyle, people might envy them a bit less.

Sometimes perception matters more than reality.

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Old 23.09.2014, 10:43
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Including the cooks, kitchen staff and cleaners?
I don't normally hang around at the hours the cleaners come. I tend to limit my drinking excesses to the point that I can still walk home
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  #53  
Old 23.09.2014, 10:53
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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The alternative is to not make it so easy for students to study abroad and stay in the host country after their education is over.
If they got a stipendium they have to go back to their countries of origin, as far as I know. At least this was the rule 10 years ago.
Even so, I am not sure this would solve the problem of fewer students looking to study engineering sciences for example. I think many students are naturally attracted to less (perceived) arid fields, encouraged by what they see around - marketing, banking, media studies being much better advertised.

And it's counter-productive for a good university, really. Their interest is to get the best students they can get.
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Old 23.09.2014, 10:55
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I do notice that especially in smaller establishments you do see a lot of staff who at least make the impression of being local. I haven't inspected their papers of course.
Is Sri Lanka or Dresden local?
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  #55  
Old 23.09.2014, 11:08
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Ah yes, but reality doesn't come into it. It's the perception that certain jobs don't pay well that drives the talent elsewhere.

If we could find a way to encourage database specialists to splash more money on champaigne in cool and hip clubs, that might be the beginning of change.

Even if your Indian IT guy is (supposedly) making 20K a month, as long as he wears a mix of Indian and C&A clothes, drives a second-hand Mazda, lives in a crappy appartment in deepest agglo-land and eats microwave food in the office, people are going to think he's on a cheap salary and accordingly assume their boss is practicing wage dumping.

If on the other hand, bankers could learn a bit from that lifestyle, people might envy them a bit less.

Sometimes perception matters more than reality.
Haha, I am yet to see a database specialist to splash money on stupid things in a cool and hip club...what's that?
And I think you perfectly described a mentality that people from some countries have: live relatively modestly, even way beneath your means, in order to save money for a "greater" purpose- buying a house, etc. It's just the way it is, not always, of course. It can be really irritating/amusing for the outsiders sometimes, for all I know.
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Old 23.09.2014, 11:14
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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If they got a stipendium they have to go back to their countries of origin, as far as I know. At least this was the rule 10 years ago.
Even so, I am not sure this would solve the problem of fewer students looking to study engineering sciences for example. I think many students are naturally attracted to less (perceived) arid fields, encouraged by what they see around - marketing, banking, media studies being much better advertised.

And it's counter-productive for a good university, really. Their interest is to get the best students they can get.
Well I am speaking from the US side of the argument, just to be clear. US universities do want a good mix of students, but, they don't ask for so much money because they are doing charity work.
They often times get 3 times for a foreigner, then they would for a local(US resident). What is the justification of that? More patience?
Since I am from Detroit, as I may have mentioned before, ALOT of students are attracted to 3 main fields, marketing(waste of time), communications(more out of work radio dj hopefuls per capita then anywhere in the USA), and research related. There are a lot of programs designed at encouraging anything in engineering, design, electronics, tool and dye, and so on in the Detroit area because we have the heaviest concentration of technology based entrepreneurs then anywhere else in the world. I mean probably not the most then everywhere, but the most concentrated.

And still, when union work pushed up the value of these workers, in the early days you had the flood of people from the south for the jobs on the assembly line. So much that is created the slums and ghetto situations we still have today. Because even though there wasn't any more work to be had, they just still kept coming and coming in hope something would eventually open up, or someone would die. Because in the south both black and white(irish, Italian) people were being persecution, and all had more rights in the north. Even though they intentionally for the most part segregated each other. Then later it became forced.

Now today, we have a flood of Chinese and Indians, in a similar situation that have flooded the tech side, coming also over in waves, and also have to move to the less desirable, if not slum areas, waiting for something to open up as it appears to be better human rights if you are from China to live in the USA, and if you were poor in India, no cast system thinking in Detroit.

I think there are some people attracted to a field they think is easier, but, the atmosphere in Detroit is a culture of technology, entrepreneurs, families of mechanics, so you are naturally encouraged to go this route. And even still, kids have to take the decision eventually, do I study like mad, and do this to make as much as being a night manager at KFC, or do I simply do something else?

Most my family is very educated(yeah, what happened to me?), and all pro Detroit/Michigan. And all work hard, and have degrees thru the nose. And yet, they have only seen their wages drop in general since the last 25 years. Most of them not union workers(or maybe half). My father has 2 doctorates, a masters, a bachelors, and 1 associates degree(really, he thinks he wins all arguments with me by default). He has taught at Rutgers, University of Michigan(and so on), published many times over, but not cheap enough.

My cousin's husband repair's air conditioners in the summer and makes double what my Dad does/did.

Actually the biggest growth industry in Detroit as of recent has been nursing. Apparently Detroit is a good place to get shot, or have terrible social assistance so a bee sting can end you up in the emergency room, because insurance won't cover that basic form of prescription drugs.

I am rambling, sorry...
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Old 23.09.2014, 11:16
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Haha, I am yet to see a database specialist to splash money on stupid things in a cool and hip club...what's that?
And I think you perfectly described a mentality that people from some countries have: live relatively modestly, even beneath your means, in order to save money for a "greater" purpose- buying a house, etc. It's just the way it is, not always, of course. It can be really irritating for the outsiders sometimes.
Yes, but we live in a society that idolizes people who get rich quick and splash it all on glitz. Working hard, saving up and being modest are not things that are looked up to any more. Rather, such attitudes are ridiculed. And because engineers and scientists tend to fall more into the "be modest and save up" category, those career paths are not considered desirable by schoolkids.
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  #58  
Old 23.09.2014, 11:18
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Is Sri Lanka or Dresden local?
I do think I am still able to distinguish ZŁritŁŁtsch from Sšchsich.
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Old 23.09.2014, 11:19
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Ah yes, but reality doesn't come into it. It's the perception that certain jobs don't pay well that drives the talent elsewhere.

If we could find a way to encourage database specialists to splash more money on champaigne in cool and hip clubs, that might be the beginning of change.

Even if your Indian IT guy is (supposedly) making 20K a month, as long as he wears a mix of Indian and C&A clothes, drives a second-hand Mazda, lives in a crappy appartment in deepest agglo-land and eats microwave food in the office, people are going to think he's on a cheap salary and accordingly assume their boss is practicing wage dumping.

If on the other hand, bankers could learn a bit from that lifestyle, people might envy them a bit less.

Sometimes perception matters more than reality.
I don't think we have that impression of them because of that.

I think it is the negotiating, way beyond reason, to the point it is insulting is why they get that "perception".
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Old 23.09.2014, 11:21
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I do think I am still able to distinguish ZŁritŁŁtsch from Sšchsich.
While that may be the case, it's not what is in the back. Nor the front.
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