Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 23.09.2014, 11:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Most my family is very educated(yeah, what happened to me?), and all pro Detroit/Michigan. And all work hard, and have degrees thru the nose. And yet, they have only seen their wages drop in general since the last 25 years. Most of them not union workers(or maybe half). My father has 2 doctorates, a masters, a bachelors, and 1 associates degree(really, he thinks he wins all arguments with me by default). He has taught at Rutgers, University of Michigan(and so on), published many times over, but not cheap enough.

My cousin's husband repair's air conditioners in the summer and makes double what my Dad does/did.
The Education proposition in the US has changed a LOT in the last 10 years. Before, everyone was encouraged to take in as much education as they can. Get a minimum graduate degree, then go for a postgraduate degree if you want more. But the financial crisis left a lot of over-educated people with few available positions.

I was amazed to hear William Bennett, our former education Czar, state a couple of years ago that not everybody should be getting an education. If one will be working in some specialized skill, it is not necessary to try to get advanced degrees.

I have heard of students nowadays coming out of universities with half a million dollar in debt, and no jobs lined up. Many of them may never be able to repay their loans. The student debt crisis in the US is estimated at $1 Trillion.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 23.09.2014, 11:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Most my family is very educated(yeah, what happened to me?), and all pro Detroit/Michigan. And all work hard, and have degrees thru the nose. And yet, they have only seen their wages drop in general since the last 25 years. Most of them not union workers(or maybe half).
Well, I know loads of people like that. (not necessarily from Detroit or USA to be clear)
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 23.09.2014, 11:50
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,649
Groaned at 290 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 24,846 Times in 10,492 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
The Education proposition in the US has changed a LOT in the last 10 years. Before, everyone was encouraged to take in as much education as they can. Get a minimum graduate degree, then go for a postgraduate degree if you want more. But the financial crisis left a lot of over-educated people with few available positions.

I was amazed to hear William Bennett, our former education Czar, state a couple of years ago that not everybody should be getting an education. If one will be working in some specialized skill, it is not necessary to try to get advanced degrees.

I have heard of students nowadays coming out of universities with half a million dollar in debt, and no jobs lined up. Many of them may never be able to repay their loans. The student debt crisis in the US is estimated at $1 Trillion.
Student debt and indirectly, costs of education are a topic that needs to be tackled. Just as with a mortgage or any other form of borrowing, a person's debt celiing must be in some reasonable relation to their actual salary or at least realistic projections of future earnings. The present situation is anything but that.

On the other hand, available skills do to some extent influence the type of companies that you attract to a city or region. Create a strong base of technology education, and tech companies begin to see you as a good place to set up shop. Educating media studies experts and HR managers also fills some demand gap no doubt, but there are few companies that primarily thrive on those skillsets.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 23.09.2014, 12:09
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Back when the economy was booming, I heard pre-med students were already being scouted by medical companies before they even graduated. That is not a bad proposition. When you have an employer already involved in a student's education before they come out. The intelligence community does this. It's not a bad arrangement to have. Perhaps advanced education should be justified in this same way. As we know, US Universities are for profit organizations and very expensive.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 23.09.2014, 12:16
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,649
Groaned at 290 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 24,846 Times in 10,492 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Back when the economy was booming, I heard pre-med students were already being scouted by medical companies before they even graduated. That is not a bad proposition. When you have an employer already involved in a student's education before they come out. The intelligence community does this. It's not a bad arrangement to have. Perhaps advanced education should be justified in this same way. As we know, US Universities are for profit organizations and very expensive.
My understanding is that there is already a lot of sponsorship of this type going on in the US, with companies paying part of tuition fees and offering vacation internships. And rightly so. It's weaselish of companies to complain about the lack of skillsets and expecting government to do something about it rather than putting their own money where their mouth is.

But there still aren't enough of these schemes.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 23.09.2014, 12:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
On the other hand, available skills do to some extent influence the type of companies that you attract to a city or region. Create a strong base of technology education, and tech companies begin to see you as a good place to set up shop..
Or shoot yourself in the foot, create a very unstable business environment with the only constant of having high and higher taxes, and then make all your specialists (whose studies were financed by you, the "state") flee not only the region, but the country itself.
There, job well done.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 23.09.2014, 12:30
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,801
Groaned at 104 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 4,965 Times in 2,360 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Or shoot yourself in the foot, create a very unstable business environment with the only constant of having high and higher taxes, and then make all your specialists (whose studies were financed by you, the "state") flee not only the region, but the country itself.
There, job well done.
But why do taxes have to go up?
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 23.09.2014, 13:12
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,649
Groaned at 290 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 24,846 Times in 10,492 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
But why do taxes have to go up?
Sounds like a topic for an entirely new thread, or forum even.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 23.09.2014, 13:34
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,801
Groaned at 104 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 4,965 Times in 2,360 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Sounds like a topic for an entirely new thread, or forum even.
Well, I don't understand how she said growth equaled higher taxes that go up endlessly. A good city plan will keep taxes down, and actually, wealthy communities, have lower taxes because of a variety of things.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 23.09.2014, 14:04
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,649
Groaned at 290 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 24,846 Times in 10,492 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Well, I don't understand how she said growth equaled higher taxes that go up endlessly. A good city plan will keep taxes down, and actually, wealthy communities, have lower taxes because of a variety of things.
But poverty can often be a vicious cycle for a community.

The more poverty you have, the more money you need to support those in need and so the more you need to raise taxes for those who aren't yet in poverty. Thus you make businesses and high earners leave and thus add even even more to the burden of those left behind. Add to that a town government that is asleep at the wheel and doesn't see where the problem is and doesn't attempt to innovatively try and break out of that cycle and you get what was described.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 23.09.2014, 14:38
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Sounds like a topic for an entirely new thread, or forum even.
Yep. Specially when you talk about old ideals of having free universal health care, free education up to the university level, social protection (or some sort) for the many needy etc. Unfortunately, not every country is Sweden.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 23.09.2014, 14:45
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,586
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,382 Times in 18,114 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately, not every country is Sweden.
FTFY.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 23.09.2014, 14:57
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,801
Groaned at 104 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 4,965 Times in 2,360 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Yep. Specially when you talk about old ideals of having free universal health care, free education up to the university level, social protection (or some sort) for the many needy etc. Unfortunately, not every country is Sweden.
Or communist.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Confloozed for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:18
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Oh, c'mon, don't you love this flag? I really do. If Switzerland must change its flag, at least let's have this one. Although I have a vague idea that it's not exactly the kind of flag some immigrants would like to see...


Which brings us back to the topic. Honestly, what a cheeky idea.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:38
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
Oh, c'mon, don't you love this flag? I really do. If Switzerland must change its flag, at least let's have this one. Although I have a vague idea that it's not exactly the kind of flag some immigrants would like to see...


Which brings us back to the topic. Honestly, what a cheeky idea.

This reminds me home accessories and kottbullar meatballs.

But no, don't really like free crap. Makes people demotivated, dumb, lazy, spineless, passive-aggressive and ultimately miserable.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:47
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
This reminds me home accessories and kottbullar meatballs.
.
Yep, I knew kottbullar meatballs had that effect on people.

Quote:
View Post
Makes people demotivated, dumb, lazy, spineless, passive-aggressive and ultimately miserable.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:56
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
But poverty can often be a vicious cycle for a community.

The more poverty you have, the more money you need to support those in need and so the more you need to raise taxes for those who aren't yet in poverty. Thus you make businesses and high earners leave and thus add even even more to the burden of those left behind. Add to that a town government that is asleep at the wheel and doesn't see where the problem is and doesn't attempt to innovatively try and break out of that cycle and you get what was described.

If you imagine a graduate with a huge debt burden entering the workforce. That person is not likely to spend a lot of money until the loan is paid off. That is a lot of economic productivity tied down. That is like indentured slavery for their first couple of working years.

Last edited by Phos; 23.09.2014 at 20:47.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 23.09.2014, 17:01
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,649
Groaned at 290 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 24,846 Times in 10,492 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
If you imagine a graduate with a huge debt burden entering the workforce. That person is not likely to spend a lot of money until the load is paid off. That is a lot of economic productivity tied down. That is like indentured slavery for their first couple of working years.
couple of years?

I don't know what starter salaries are like in the US, but when i started my first job post university I was saving maybe a couple of hundred a month. Paying back a 100K or so debt in a couple of years would have been nigh impossible.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 23.09.2014, 17:26
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,732
Groaned at 346 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 15,640 Times in 8,014 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
couple of years?

I don't know what starter salaries are like in the US, but when i started my first job post university I was saving maybe a couple of hundred a month. Paying back a 100K or so debt in a couple of years would have been nigh impossible.
When I see the kind of debt Americans have after finishing their studies...frankly, that kind of "free crap" I got back home does seem very appealing now. I bet it's the same for many other people I know.
But, where do you draw the line?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 23.09.2014, 17:43
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,649
Groaned at 290 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 24,846 Times in 10,492 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Quote:
View Post
When I see the kind of debt Americans have after finishing their studies...frankly, that kind of "free crap" I got back home does seem very appealing now. I bet it's the same for many other people I know.
But, where do you draw the line?
I think it's also embedded in overall expectations.

My engineering friends in the US are earning salaries pretty much on par with what they'd get in Switzerland for the same job. However, average income there is a fair bit lower. So I guess this means the salary gap between an engineer and say a technician must be more than here.

I've been in jobs in CH where the pay gap between myself and technicians was in the range of 500 CHF per month. And if you factor in that the technician got a salary (albeit a small one) during his training, and finished the training many years before I left university, he actually had more money overall at my age and it would have taken quite a few years of work for me to balance that out. Maybe not until you're in your mid 30s.

Now in the event I think it balanced faster than that as I got promoted. But there is no guarantee of promotion. So given the choice between a vocational apprenticeship and a university degree, I would say it's about just as good both ways. If you have to pay a lot for university, ő'd say the training is the better option.

The fact that people go to university in the US at all must (therefore, in my reasoning) be explained by the bigger salary gap.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0