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Old 23.09.2014, 18:04
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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This reminds me home accessories and kottbullar meatballs.

But no, don't really like free crap. Makes people demotivated, dumb, lazy, spineless, passive-aggressive and ultimately miserable.
All people? Or, cheap stuff allows those who care less for image and spending, actually be able to invest into something that matters to them and isn't expensive furniture nor material stuff. Like education. Bring on cheap meatballs if we can invest in a worthy lecture to take, anytime. Or, what about those who have to shop in cheap retailers..who are we gonna trash next, Aldi shoppers? Love it, myself. Saved me. Why shaming those who prefer or have to prioritise cheaper furniture shops..Not everyone is a snob. Cheap or free doesn't make people lazy. Lazy makes certain people lazy, no matter how much one spends.

There are a lot of uncomfortably assertive assumptions here.

People live and contribute here, local or not, they are free to nag should they choose to. Many had no choice to avoid CH, too. Assuming everybody appreciates the local life style and priorities and hence should keep their mouth shut..is arrogant. Nobody knows for certain the level of liberty somebody else has, and making presumptuous claims throwing judgements on those who might not be able to leave now or soon sounds quite limited and myopic. If they criticise, they might have a reason, even if they do not have to stay, anyways. Sometimes staying here is a must because one is taking more personal responsibility, when somebody else's failed.
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  #82  
Old 23.09.2014, 18:13
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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All people? Or, cheap stuff allows those who care less for image and spending, actually be able to invest into something that matters to them and isn't expensive furniture nor material stuff. Like education. Bring on cheap meatballs if we can invest in a worthy lecture to take, anytime. Or, what about those who have to shop in cheap retailers..who are we gonna trash next, Aldi shoppers? Love it, myself. Saved me. Why shaming those who prefer or have to prioritise cheaper furniture shops..Not everyone is a snob. Cheap or free doesn't make people lazy. Lazy makes certain people lazy, no matter how much one spends.

There are a lot of uncomfortably assertive assumptions here.

People live and contribute here, local or not, they are free to nag should they choose to. Many had no choice to avoid CH, too. Assuming everybody appreciates the local life style and priorities and hence should keep their mouth shut..is arrogant. Nobody knows for certain the level of liberty somebody else has, and making presumptuous claims throwing judgements on those who might not be able to leave now or soon sounds quite limited and myopic. If they criticise, they might have a reason, even if they do not have to stay, anyways. Sometimes staying here is a must because one is taking more personal responsibility, when somebody else's failed.

The thread was on about socialized public education, taxes, commies, and the hell of Sweden.
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  #83  
Old 23.09.2014, 20:58
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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All people? Or, cheap stuff allows those who care less for image and spending, actually be able to invest into something that matters to them and isn't expensive furniture nor material stuff. Like education. Bring on cheap meatballs if we can invest in a worthy lecture to take, anytime. Or, what about those who have to shop in cheap retailers..who are we gonna trash next, Aldi shoppers? Love it, myself. Saved me. Why shaming those who prefer or have to prioritise cheaper furniture shops..Not everyone is a snob. Cheap or free doesn't make people lazy. Lazy makes certain people lazy, no matter how much one spends.

There are a lot of uncomfortably assertive assumptions here.

People live and contribute here, local or not, they are free to nag should they choose to. Many had no choice to avoid CH, too. Assuming everybody appreciates the local life style and priorities and hence should keep their mouth shut..is arrogant. Nobody knows for certain the level of liberty somebody else has, and making presumptuous claims throwing judgements on those who might not be able to leave now or soon sounds quite limited and myopic. If they criticise, they might have a reason, even if they do not have to stay, anyways. Sometimes staying here is a must because one is taking more personal responsibility, when somebody else's failed.
The discussion moved on from "secondos" to cheap students from China and India making the local American genius take an easier path in life, to expensive tertiary education vs. free tertiary education, to bad public policies associated with high taxes vs. low taxes associated with good policies,etc. etc. etc. Not really important, but no-one had a bad word against Ikea stuff actually. There are no snobs here, how could you think that...

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Yes, but we live in a society that idolizes people who get rich quick and splash it all on glitz. Working hard, saving up and being modest are not things that are looked up to any more. Rather, such attitudes are ridiculed. And because engineers and scientists tend to fall more into the "be modest and save up" category, those career paths are not considered desirable by schoolkids.
Whose fault is that? Not of those cheap immigrants anyway. As I said, making it harder for foreign students or foreigners who already have the skills and willingness it's not going to change much.
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  #84  
Old 23.09.2014, 21:29
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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The discussion moved on from "secondos" to cheap students from China and India making the local American genius take an easier path in life, to expensive tertiary education vs. free tertiary education, to bad public policies associated with high taxes vs. low taxes associated with good policies,etc. etc. etc. Not really important, but no-one had a bad word against Ikea stuff actually. There are no snobs here, how could you think that...
Oh no, certainly not.

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The thread was on about socialized public education, taxes, commies, and the hell of Sweden.
I could wax on public edu, socialized or not, taxes and commies, but the theme is a bit recycled. I would prefer to not wax about Sweden, if any of the Scandinavian countries, I am interested in Norway and Finland more, sil is doing her edu research there at the moment, so far it seems quite interesting.

My point was, free does not mean crap. Lots of people have to do with free and cheap. Lots of people make that choice, even here, nobody should kid themselves. I agree with what amogles pointed out, how modest and discrete lifestyle does not attract today's youth. It is that way everywhere, and it is not just youth. It is hard to promote, market, make cash on. I run a thing in each class these days, "today's coolest kid" (yes, it is so corny on purpose, fun to work with dated tags..teachers rarely have the right license for trend spotting). The criteria change a bit every time, but it makes kids think..why do I pick selfless, modest, hard working kids, why I reward those who claim zero credit for actually very meaningful things. They do it for free. They get school for free, they return to the community.

Instant gratification is an enormously marketable weakness of our times.

I did read the thread, btw, see my last line.

It's the height of the horse and some wild assumptions on free linked to laziness, spineless, aggressive, etc etc. Entitlement is probably a better concept to analyze.
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  #85  
Old 23.09.2014, 21:49
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Whose fault is that? Not of those cheap immigrants anyway. As I said, making it harder for foreign students or foreigners who already have the skills and willingness it's not going to change much.
No, I didn't say it was their fault.

Neither did I say anything should be made harder for anybody.

I was trying to anlayze causations, not judge them.
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  #86  
Old 23.09.2014, 21:55
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I did read the thread, btw, see my last line.

.
Yes, criticising is one thing and wanting to actually change the symbols (i.e. the flag) of a country other than your "own", a country that you chose to live in or you were forced to do so and were kindly taken aboard, it does seem a bit of the entitlement thingy to me. I like people that are not following everything Swiss blindly, dislike those with no critical thinking in general and easy to be manipulated, but the silly idea that this thread is based on is just similar to high horses and wild assumptions IMO.
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Old 23.09.2014, 21:59
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Yes, criticising is one thing and wanting to actually change the symbols (i.e. the flag) of a country other than your "own", country that you chose to live in or you were forced to do so and were kindly taken aboard, it does seem a bit of the entitlement thingy to me. I like people that are not following everything Swiss blindly, dislike those with no critical thinking in general and easy to be manipulated, but the silly idea that this thread is based on is just similar to high horses and wild assumptions IMO.
Oh, absolutely. Like people can actually easily change a flag of any country, just like that...I can imagine we could all send our creative ideas either here or home, suggestions for flags, anthems, symbols, money, uniforms. I kinda do not want to really think about this particular creativity thing, no matter how much I promote it otherwise

It would be cool if flags would change every year, just like gov. Kids should make them. And national anthems, too. I heard some interesting ones a little while ago coming from the bath.
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Old 23.09.2014, 22:09
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Wait a sec, I thought this was a free country. Why can't anyone just come here if they want to? Borders are just man-made illusions. And if they don't like things here, why can't they change it? Everyone is equal. Pah! Free country, ya right.
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  #89  
Old 23.09.2014, 22:15
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Oh, absolutely. Like people can actually easily change a flag of any country, just like that...I can imagine we could all send our creative ideas either here or home, suggestions for flags, anthems, symbols, money, uniforms. I kinda do not want to really think about this particular creativity thing, no matter how much I promote it otherwise

It would be cool if flags would change every year, just like gov. Kids should make them. And national anthems, too. I heard some interesting ones a little while ago coming from the bath.
Hehe, talking about those high horses...
But, jokes aside....Why rub it then? I don't get it. It's not like the Swiss are taking things lightly or something.

And yes, I also had a proposal for a new flag, I know what you mean.
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Old 23.09.2014, 22:46
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Hehe, talking about those high horses...
But, jokes aside....Why rub it then? I don't get it. It's not like the Swiss are taking things lightly or something.

And yes, I also had a proposal for a new flag, I know what you mean.
Most people don't retain the flags that currently exist, really.. I did a quiz the other day, it is amazing to compare the skills some have for memorizing visual stimuli, wish I had a memory for all flags.

I was being funny with the bathroom anthems, silly, it's just fun to hear. I don't think the lyrics would quite make the cut, anyways.

Well, as per why the suggestion to change a flag..A strange way to get noticed?

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  #91  
Old 23.09.2014, 23:16
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Well, as per why the suggestion to change a flag..A strange way to get noticed?
Of course, but I wish they were more mature, it's not really helping their cause (whatever that is?), neither other foreigners. One can question symbols and mythology that is specific to every nation/culture/religion, even try to demolish them so to speak, no doubt, as we live in a free world (thankfully) but it's never going to get appreciations on a large scale, on the contrary. I thought this theme is recycled. (see Mohammed caricatures for instance)
Anyway, too much noise for nothing, I can agree on that.
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Old 24.09.2014, 02:02
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Of course, but I wish they were more mature, it's not really helping their cause (whatever that is?), neither other foreigners. One can question symbols and mythology that is specific to every nation/culture/religion, even try to demolish them so to speak, no doubt, as we live in a free world (thankfully) but it's never going to get appreciations on a large scale, on the contrary. I thought this theme is recycled. (see Mohammed caricatures for instance)
Anyway, too much noise for nothing, I can agree on that.

Indeed, a flag is not just some colour schemes but rather the symbol of the national identity, and a longstanding tradition.


The Mohammed caricatures were comparable as they also angered people NOT religious at all


And this is why the SVP captured the trend, realising that 90%-plus reject the notion, while the enthusiasm for the Union flag has its clear Limits


Look around in the Schrebergšrten and on Trams and S-Bahnen, where the flags of communes and of the Canton dominate --- and THIS leads to the centre. Changes in Switzerland have to be started on the Cantonal or Municipal Level and not on the Union level
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Old 24.09.2014, 09:51
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Of course, but I wish they were more mature, it's not really helping their cause (whatever that is?), neither other foreigners. One can question symbols and mythology that is specific to every nation/culture/religion, even try to demolish them so to speak, no doubt, as we live in a free world (thankfully) but it's never going to get appreciations on a large scale, on the contrary. I thought this theme is recycled. (see Mohammed caricatures for instance)
Anyway, too much noise for nothing, I can agree on that.
In my perception, the changing of national symbols is something tinpot dictatorships in the Third World do. Every time there's a new dictator they have to rename the capital, reword the national anthem and tinker with the flag. It's the political power equivalent of the dog peeing on the hydrant.

Stable and mature nations can live with their history and traditions and don't need to constantly tipp-ex around in them.
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Old 24.09.2014, 11:11
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Indeed, a flag is not just some colour schemes but rather the symbol of the national identity, and a longstanding tradition.


The Mohammed caricatures were comparable as they also angered people NOT religious at all

.
Yes Wolli, it's curious they have chosen exactly these sort of things to discuss (poke fun at), one would think they are a political organisation with some substance and not a bunch of disgruntled teenagers, although these feelings must be still somewhere there, deep down.
But, it must have to do with the level of inner freedom they have, isn't it...We are so critical of SVP's dumb things and their ultra-schematic way of communicating, why not with that.

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Stable and mature nations can live with their history and traditions and don't need to constantly tipp-ex around in them.
Absolutely.
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Old 24.09.2014, 11:36
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Yes Wolli, it's curious they have chosen exactly these sort of things to discuss (poke fun at), one would think they are a political organisation with some substance and not a bunch of disgruntled teenagers, although these feelings must be still somewhere there, deep down.
But, it must have to do with the level of inner freedom they have, isn't it...We are so critical of SVP's dumb things and their ultra-schematic way of communicating, why not with that.

I think the SVP took the opportunity to highlight how migrants to Switzerland do not hold the same values as the Swiss, and should not be trusted with Swiss National sovereignty and identity. The SVP is a tenacious bunch. In terms of political rhetoric, they do know how to pick points that strike nerves for added impact. Shrewd, maybe tasteless, but apparently effective.
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Old 24.09.2014, 11:58
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Unhappy and miserable in Switzerland? Good! Congratulations, because you did it to yourself. Buahahaha

Taking personal responsibility is one of the most empowering actions one can take.
Couldn't agree more on this one. Despite all things I don't like here (there aren't too many tbh, yes, I'm that simple), I do believe that as a foreigner, it's much better living here than in other places in Europe.
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Old 24.09.2014, 12:18
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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Couldn't agree more on this one. Despite all things I don't like here (there aren't too many tbh, yes, I'm that simple), I do believe that as a foreigner, it's much better living here than in other places in Europe.
You know, it costs to keep and maintain Switzerland. It's a small place, and there is very little room for f***ups. The Swiss exercise a certain diligence in how they conduct their public lives, and how they impact society. Coming from other larger countries, foreigners can be very ignorant of this and sometimes feel they have the leeway to take their own actions lightly. I think it aggravates the locals to see foreigners pee in their cheerios. I can relate to that. Considering Switzerland is now my country, when I see foreigner screwing with it, and not really adding much value to society..... makes me want to deport them. Nothing racist about it. I'm not even ethnically Swiss.
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Old 24.09.2014, 12:33
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I think the SVP took the opportunity to highlight how migrants to Switzerland do not hold the same values as the Swiss, and should not be trusted with Swiss National sovereignty and identity. The SVP is a tenacious bunch. In terms of political rhetoric, they do know how to pick points that strike nerves for added impact. Shrewd, maybe tasteless, but apparently effective.
Although the SVP may at first come across like a bunch of teenagers on a hormone overdose driven by whatever crazy idea comes into their head after drinking their seventh beer, if you look more carefully and observe them over longer periods you'll see that on the contrary, there is a lot of shrewd strategy behind it all and that time and time again the other parties (who fall into the trap of underestimating them and assuming they're stupid) fail to see what's coming to hit them until its too late. If you can filter out the emotional stuff and the content its like watching an advanced game of chess. Especially if the chess master isn't playing only by his own strengths but is tricking his opponent into damaging his own position. In many cases, misguided anti-SVP rhetoric has helped the party more than its own campaigns have.

In many ways, what they've done is studied the 1968 generation and their methods of communication, provactaion, of manipulating language, of slaughtering holy cows and of mass-claiming topics and areas of discontent - and more or less fine-tuned that while replacing the oiriginal content and solutions by their own. This makes it all the more surprising that the veteran battle-bruised 68ers of the SP are failing to recognize that they're at the wrong end of their own former campaign methods and are apparently unable to develop a feasible counter-strategy.

The SVP certainly makes the right wing parties of most other countries, including UKIP, look like a bunch of clueless amateurs.
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Old 24.09.2014, 12:44
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

Obviously, SVP posters don't appeal to foreigners because foreigners can't vote anyway. But on the political scale, they cover a broad swath of economic liberalism and conservatism that other parties don't. That is an awful lot of intelligent and educated people. While not everyone in that range is a member of the SVP, upon critical analysis, find the SVP propositions makes sense for them. So no, the SVP does not only represent the views of a bunch of uneducated farmers. I think they often pull from the FDP's and CVP constituents, because those two parties are often very uninspired.
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Old 24.09.2014, 12:56
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Re: SVP to immigrants: Donít mess with the Swiss flag

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I think they often pull from the FDP's and CVP constituents, because those two parties are often very uninspired.
Both CVP and FDP are pretty embarassing and it surprises me they still get the support they do. SVP is pretty good at draining off FDP supporters on economic and business questions, while poaching SP supporters on social and societal questions. In both cases this is an easy game as both parties have a blnd spot to their own failings in their core areas. It's a bit difficult to argue against CVP on anything as they don't actually have a coherent or consistent position on any important topic. The mistake most of the other parties is that they try anway.
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