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  #41  
Old 01.10.2011, 17:41
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Swiss neutrality did not prevent Napoleon from invading the country. Swiss armed neutrality did prevent Hitler from invading the country... there were more factors, sure, he was almost going to launch the invasion when the eastern front needed more troops and so he had to abandon the plans, but without the swiss military deterrent factor those plans would have been easier and so the invasion carried out before too.

The current modern scenario is of course very different, I doubt any neighbour would like to invade Switzerland, but who can tell what could happen in the future?

I do think a strong military is needed, the conscription system kept alive and new purchases for the army being made. I'm not so sure about those planes, though. The country won't launch attacks over other countries, so wouldn't it just be possible to build a passive land-to-air defense system? or are those systems too much outdated and vulnerable?
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  #42  
Old 01.10.2011, 17:48
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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I believe Switzerland could join NATO, then all these countries below would be our friends. We could send some infantry to help them out with spring cleaning their barracks,

Albania
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Croatia
Czech Rep
Denmark
Estonia
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States

OMG, Austria is not a member! Better keep the air force, don't trust those dodgy ex-imperialists!
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  #43  
Old 01.10.2011, 17:56
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Have they, indeed?


Personally, I find it ever-so-slightly improbable that even the Swiss air force could manage to keep an F18 in the air non-stop since before the Wright Brothers made their famous flight...

Just sayin...
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  #44  
Old 01.10.2011, 18:31
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Switzerland does not need any military defences, we are surrounded by friends. We need a good civil defence, which I believe we have, and perhaps a national armed police force with helicopters and drones, enough to remove a determined armed criminal attack.

Let us begin to be sensible and stop buying expensive toys for boys.
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  #45  
Old 01.10.2011, 18:35
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

[QUOTE=ARC_VD;1360049]Swiss neutrality did not prevent Napoleon QUOTE]


Napoleon din`t see the movie, "Back to the Future"
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  #46  
Old 01.10.2011, 19:54
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Swiss neutrality did not prevent Napoleon from invading the country. Swiss armed neutrality did prevent Hitler from invading the country... there were more factors, sure, he was almost going to launch the invasion when the eastern front needed more troops and so he had to abandon the plans, but without the swiss military deterrent factor those plans would have been easier and so the invasion carried out before too.
In WWII Germany never had a concrete plans to attack Switzerland. The troops that were drawn together near the Swiss boarder in 1941 were part a deception manoeuvre.
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  #47  
Old 01.10.2011, 20:07
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

I can reference my own country's (USA) history of entering war unprepared, with inadequate training, equipment, and manpower, dating all the way back to our Revolutionary War. Only through sheer determination, force of will, and (to some degree) luck were we able to weather those storms. In almost every instance, we thought we were prepared, were safe, or didn't need to arm ourselves. I believe that our post-WWII military stance is in large part finally due to us learning a lesson from so many near failings.

Switzerland, in order to be thought of seriously, should keep its forces technologically competitive, well-trained, and properly staffed.
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  #48  
Old 01.10.2011, 20:29
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Switzerland, in order to be thought of seriously, should keep its forces technologically competitive, well-trained, and properly staffed.
Well, there's a first time for everything
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  #49  
Old 01.10.2011, 20:32
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Do you advocate retaining the right to keep guns at home?
Off-topic, but absolutely, unequivocally, I do advocate the right to bear arms.
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  #50  
Old 01.10.2011, 20:35
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Well, there's a first time for everything

I should have clarified myself- Switzerland, to be thought of seriously by those who might wish to attack it,
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  #51  
Old 01.10.2011, 20:51
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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In WWII Germany never had a concrete plans to attack Switzerland. The troops that were drawn together near the Swiss boarder in 1941 were part a deception manoeuvre.
http://automaticballpoint.com/2010/0...nbaum-part-ii/

This sounds concrete enough to me
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  #52  
Old 01.10.2011, 21:21
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Who, who, who? Who will conceivably invade Switzerland in the next 30 years?

Switzerland will not be attacking anyone either.

We only need ground to air missiles mounted on the mountain tops, just in case the Mafia get hold of something dangerous.

Iraq hat a large modern air force with lots of experience fighting Iran, and invading Kuwait. How long did they survive against
the mighty USA? How many US jets did they destroy?
You can't hang with the big boys, so there's no point in defending yourself? Seems a bit silly. There have been civil wars in the last, what, 15 years just a country or two away. That kind of thing happening again could put neighboring countries at risk. If the EU fails, and countries like Greece or maybe Italy succumb to internal turmoil, their armed forces may become a threat to the Swiss.

You may see that as unlikely, but the point of a defensive force is to be ready for unforeseen risks. Better safe than sorry - and history very clearly shows that peace is the exception in human nature, not the norm.
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  #53  
Old 01.10.2011, 21:41
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Any former military guys/gals here?

I could imagine that strictly militarily it is absolutely necessary for Switzerland to have an air force. Switzerland (being the small country it is) has no strategic depth to absorb an attack, therefore must have capability to strike first and project power beyond its borders.

Of course, this is not necessary if:
a) the swiss don't mind being attacked
b) the swiss believe that the world is full of friendly people who will never disagree with and do harm to others

Aside from this, what if Swiss interests are at stake far beyond its borders? Will you call the Germans and ask them to please lend you some aircraft?
About " what if Swiss interests are at stake far beyond its borders?"

How would this work?
First the Swiss would have to get permission from surrounding countries to overfly with armed aircraft.
Secondly the Swiss would have to borrow some suitable tanker aircraft or some suitable remote airfields to extend the fighting range of their fighters.

Does not sound like a credible scenario to me.
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  #54  
Old 01.10.2011, 21:49
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Who, who, who? Who will conceivably invade Switzerland in the next 30 years?
Wow... predicting the future over the next 30 years... impressive!

Mind to lend me your cristal ball for a day or two?

Who would have thought 30 years ago that the iron curtain would fall and the Soviet Union cease to exist?
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  #55  
Old 01.10.2011, 21:52
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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You can't hang with the big boys, so there's no point in defending yourself? Seems a bit silly. There have been civil wars in the last, what, 15 years just a country or two away. That kind of thing happening again could put neighboring countries at risk. If the EU fails, and countries like Greece or maybe Italy succumb to internal turmoil, their armed forces may become a threat to the Swiss.

You may see that as unlikely, but the point of a defensive force is to be ready for unforeseen risks. Better safe than sorry - and history very clearly shows that peace is the exception in human nature, not the norm.
I do not see a Swiss air force as any sort of credible deterrent.

The best approach for the Swiss is the current one.

You have a lot of military trained people who have weapons at home plus hidden weapon stocks.

Any invader would have a very tough time, for example, see Iraq & Afghanistan as examples of how local people can inflict damage on a foreign occupation army. Think how this would be in Switzerland where there are many properly trained local people with modern(ish) weapons. Plus an infrastructure designed for this purpose; I mean roads & bridges prepared for explosives. Any invader, even if they could make a quick & successfull entry into the country, would have to have 24 hours per day guards on these weak points.
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  #56  
Old 01.10.2011, 21:54
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

No (too short)
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  #57  
Old 01.10.2011, 22:04
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The best approach for the Swiss is the current one.

You have a lot of military trained people who have weapons at home
Well, now the cat's out the bag, here's the actual plan for the air force...


Attachment 33258

Last edited by weejeem; 14.10.2011 at 16:02.
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Old 01.10.2011, 22:08
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Well, now the cat's out the bag, here's the actual plan for the air force...


Attachment 33258
Great solution; they should order 20 so they have one for every trained pilot
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  #59  
Old 01.10.2011, 22:23
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

The fact is that any fighter purchase will be an offset transaction, meaning that the value of the order given to the winning bidder has to be returned to Swiss companies to the same value (or whatever the agreed terms are). This basically means that the deal is not going to effectively cost the Swiss tax payer CHF 5 billion, so it's not like the usual array of arguments can be brought out about usefully spending the money elsewhere on hospitals, schools or sanctuaries for disabled donkeys.
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Old 01.10.2011, 22:47
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Tricky question
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