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  #141  
Old 05.11.2011, 23:36
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

it would only make sense if switzerland maintained a modern military (and thus an airforce) with a size and power that scales with its population, land area and economy. yes, this wouldnt be of any use if a big, fully determined country like germany wants to occupy switzerland out of the blue, but it will be quite useful in a possible WW3 scenario where countries small and large start warring with each other and will have to allocate resources to multiple fronts
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  #142  
Old 06.11.2011, 10:09
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Yup, that's pretty much it. There's also the local interest as state owned defense company RUAG would be the primary contractor and would presumably try and launch an upgrade program for other F-5 operators like Tunisia and Morocco for example. There won't be a competitive bid process with an upgrade, RUAG would be sole supplier, period.
That might open up some new possibilities, like Morocco and Tunisia buying more stuff from RUAG, and/or RUAG outsourcing some manufacturing business to subsidiaries like RUAG Maroc SA (Casablanca) and RUAG Tunisie SA (Sidi Bou Saïd + Carthage) and people from those "outposts" coming for training and professional edcuation (stagiaires) overhere

Beside the point that while the Tiger may lack combat capabilities it from size and maneuverability is quite ideal for Switzerland. I mean, the job of the Swiss Air Force is not to potentially fight through a kind of "Battle of Britain" but to, in case of emergency, act as a kind of deterrant force
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  #143  
Old 06.11.2011, 12:23
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Switzerland is now within range of Iranian missiles:


So I would say it would be a good idea for Swiss to have not only fighter jets of the most advanced kind but also refuelling planes.

Ballistic missiles would also be a good idea in addition to developing (or buying) drones.

Switzerland cannot rely on crumbling Europe for its defence.

My impression is that the Swiss defence apparatus is huge (in relation to the country's size) but very obsolete.
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  #144  
Old 06.11.2011, 14:02
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Leaving aside the question of the (currently) unlikely scenario of France or Germany invading Switzerland, having a modern up-to-date military puts Switzerland in a better situation to say "no" to her neighbours. It aslo puts her in a better position to say "yes".
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  #145  
Old 06.11.2011, 23:05
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Beside the point that while the Tiger may lack combat capabilities it from size and maneuverability is quite ideal for Switzerland. I mean, the job of the Swiss Air Force is not to potentially fight through a kind of "Battle of Britain" but to, in case of emergency, act as a kind of deterrant force
The Tiger presents little more deterrent than a target drone. There are numerous fighter/attack aircraft out there, operated my many countries, both friend and potentially foe, that fly faster, are more maneuverable, have better sensor packages, and can carry better armaments than the Tiger.

If Switzerland were to become embroiled in an armed conflict, for whatever the reason, sending pilots into combat in the Tiger, to not put it mildly, would be the modern-day Charge of the Light Brigade.

The U.S. has made the same mistake over and over again- that of entering war unprepared. It has cost countless American lives, especially in the past century. Switzerland would do well to learn from this lesson and replace her aging fighter force.
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  #146  
Old 06.11.2011, 23:39
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The Tiger presents little more deterrent than a target drone. There are numerous fighter/attack aircraft out there, operated my many countries, both friend and potentially foe, that fly faster, are more maneuverable, have better sensor packages, and can carry better armaments than the Tiger.

If Switzerland were to become embroiled in an armed conflict, for whatever the reason, sending pilots into combat in the Tiger, to not put it mildly, would be the modern-day Charge of the Light Brigade.

The U.S. has made the same mistake over and over again- that of entering war unprepared. It has cost countless American lives, especially in the past century. Switzerland would do well to learn from this lesson and replace her aging fighter force.

Thats why "we" have F18s. The F 5s main purpose is controlling the airspace, "policing" it. For example if someone were to use the swiss airspace for transporting weapons with cargo planes such as antonovs or C-130s.
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  #147  
Old 07.11.2011, 02:44
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The Tiger presents little more deterrent than a target drone. There are numerous fighter/attack aircraft out there, operated my many countries, both friend and potentially foe, that fly faster, are more maneuverable, have better sensor packages, and can carry better armaments than the Tiger.

If Switzerland were to become embroiled in an armed conflict, for whatever the reason, sending pilots into combat in the Tiger, to not put it mildly, would be the modern-day Charge of the Light Brigade.

The U.S. has made the same mistake over and over again- that of entering war unprepared. It has cost countless American lives, especially in the past century. Switzerland would do well to learn from this lesson and replace her aging fighter force.
For any "combat" matters, the Swiss Air Force has the F-18 .... it is not the F-5 alone at any time
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  #148  
Old 07.11.2011, 08:50
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Thats why "we" have F18s. The F 5s main purpose is controlling the airspace, "policing" it. For example if someone were to use the swiss airspace for transporting weapons with cargo planes such as antonovs or C-130s.
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For any "combat" matters, the Swiss Air Force has the F-18 .... it is not the F-5 alone at any time
33 F(recently A)-18's are not enough to stop a determined attack, once maintenance cycles, attrition, and crew rest are factored in. It is at this point the Swiss Air Force would have little choice but to turn to the F-5, as it comprises nearly 2/3 of the fixed-wing capability of the Swiss AF.

If a third power (read "enemy") were transporting military hardware through Swiss airspace, those transports would be under some sort of 'escort' umbrella, again, by aircraft much more capable than the F-5, which would ultimately imply that any combat victories for the F-5 would be due to incredible skill on the part of the pilots (reservists- so possible, but unlikely), an error on the part of the enemy, or just plain luck. You don't defend your country by crossing your fingers.

The F-5 was a good fighter, in it's day, but the time has come to put it out to pasture, and find it's replacement.
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  #149  
Old 07.11.2011, 23:36
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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33 F(recently A)-18's are not enough to stop a determined attack, once maintenance cycles, attrition, and crew rest are factored in. It is at this point the Swiss Air Force would have little choice but to turn to the F-5, as it comprises nearly 2/3 of the fixed-wing capability of the Swiss AF.

If a third power (read "enemy") were transporting military hardware through Swiss airspace, those transports would be under some sort of 'escort' umbrella, again, by aircraft much more capable than the F-5, which would ultimately imply that any combat victories for the F-5 would be due to incredible skill on the part of the pilots (reservists- so possible, but unlikely), an error on the part of the enemy, or just plain luck. You don't defend your country by crossing your fingers.

The F-5 was a good fighter, in it's day, but the time has come to put it out to pasture, and find it's replacement.
A) That the number of F-18 was/is not sufficient was clear right from the beginning
B) For the reasons you mention, I am clearly in favour of having the F-5 replaced. Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale might all three be a good way to go
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  #150  
Old 08.11.2011, 08:40
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Good posts everyone. It wouldn't be doing anyone a favor if any money were to be spent on the Tiger upgrade (possibly excepting the Patrouille Suisse). These days air combat is not about turn and burning in close, today's air superiority is about beyond visual range (BVR) encounters and eliminating threats before they "see" you. The F-5 was never designed for this rôle; in fact, it was a redesigned trainer, heralding from the T-38 trainer from the 1960s and was basically the USA's idea of delivering cost effective jets to allied third world nations. Europe's other F-5 users (albeit with earlier models), like Norway and the Netherlands retired their F-5 fleets decades ago. The Americans themselves only used the F-5 for DACT (Disimilar Air Combat Training) to simulate enemy fighters, they never used the Tiger in any combat zone.

Switzerland has to make a choice, if we are committed to maintaining a viable military, then at least equip it with the proper tools. If you make a hash of this fighter procurement or try to dilute the content, take a look at what could happen like in Austria where the Eurofighter choice was (and still is) shrouded in scandal and ineffectivity in it's theoretical rôle. The Austrians can't afford to fly their Eurofighters, can't afford to train their personnel and had their version dumbed down at a greater cost than leaving it the same as the standard German Luftwaffe version.
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Old 09.11.2011, 21:51
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Good posts everyone. It wouldn't be doing anyone a favor if any money were to be spent on the Tiger upgrade (possibly excepting the Patrouille Suisse). These days air combat is not about turn and burning in close, today's air superiority is about beyond visual range (BVR) encounters and eliminating threats before they "see" you. The F-5 was never designed for this rôle; in fact, it was a redesigned trainer, heralding from the T-38 trainer from the 1960s and was basically the USA's idea of delivering cost effective jets to allied third world nations. Europe's other F-5 users (albeit with earlier models), like Norway and the Netherlands retired their F-5 fleets decades ago. The Americans themselves only used the F-5 for DACT (Disimilar Air Combat Training) to simulate enemy fighters, they never used the Tiger in any combat zone.

Switzerland has to make a choice, if we are committed to maintaining a viable military, then at least equip it with the proper tools. If you make a hash of this fighter procurement or try to dilute the content, take a look at what could happen like in Austria where the Eurofighter choice was (and still is) shrouded in scandal and ineffectivity in it's theoretical rôle. The Austrians can't afford to fly their Eurofighters, can't afford to train their personnel and had their version dumbed down at a greater cost than leaving it the same as the standard German Luftwaffe version.
The final choice is whether this country wants real armed forces which means also an air force, or whether the country wants to have it reduced to what you can see on Malta, Ireland or in Costa Rica .
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  #152  
Old 09.11.2011, 23:34
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Got a question that maybe Wolli can answer. Switzerland isn't going to war anytime soon, but doesn't the mandatory military service that every male Swiss citizen have to perform help integrate the entire country? In other words, does the Swiss military help Swiss feel as if they belong to something bigger than just their local canton?
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  #153  
Old 10.11.2011, 00:04
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Got a question that maybe Wolli can answer. Switzerland isn't going to war anytime soon, but doesn't the mandatory military service that every male Swiss citizen have to perform help integrate the entire country? In other words, does the Swiss military help Swiss feel as if they belong to something bigger than just their local canton?
The blunt and realistic answer is NO !
> The mandatory military service is one of the reasons for the many YES for a liquidation of the army
> In this service, people feel more heavily than ever before as members of their own canton
> Do not forget that you when in "service" are under the command of the military command of your own canton and the military command of the canton of your unit
> military service is NOT something "bigger" but clearly something "lesser" than your Canton
> Cantons are NOT "local", "local" is what can be attributed to "Bezirke" = Counties
-
in other words, a change-over to normal professional armed forces would not only improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the force, it would also improve the approval rate among the population
-
I may sound negative, but in reality have to admit that not everything and not all moments of all those days were really negative. Lots of interesting acquaintances, many quite nice experiences, lots of places seen I would never have seen otherwise .... all this in spite of my detesting the club. Yes, there IS a contradiction !
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  #154  
Old 10.11.2011, 00:55
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The blunt and realistic answer is NO !
> The mandatory military service is one of the reasons for the many YES for a liquidation of the army
> In this service, people feel more heavily than ever before as members of their own canton
> Do not forget that you when in "service" are under the command of the military command of your own canton and the military command of the canton of your unit
> military service is NOT something "bigger" but clearly something "lesser" than your Canton
> Cantons are NOT "local", "local" is what can be attributed to "Bezirke" = Counties
-
in other words, a change-over to normal professional armed forces would not only improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the force, it would also improve the approval rate among the population
-
I may sound negative, but in reality have to admit that not everything and not all moments of all those days were really negative. Lots of interesting acquaintances, many quite nice experiences, lots of places seen I would never have seen otherwise .... all this in spite of my detesting the club. Yes, there IS a contradiction !
Wolli, that's your very personal view and experience, which I respect and understand but do not share.

Many military formations are not cantonal at all. During my army years with the Medical Service / Medical Corps (up to Major) I got to see many parts of this country I would never have visited without the military, I got the opportunity to live with the various cultures that form Switzerland as a whole, and met great people from other parts that helped shape my perception of this nation.

During those years, I only occasionally met people from my own canton, and I appreciated getting in touch with people from other areas. It's always good to widen one's perspective.

Although, as a self-employed small-scale businessman, my military service actually cost me a fortune, I must admit that I learned a lot I wouldn't want to miss.
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  #155  
Old 10.11.2011, 19:56
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Wolli, that's your very personal view and experience, which I respect and understand but do not share.

Many military formations are not cantonal at all. During my army years with the Medical Service / Medical Corps (up to Major) I got to see many parts of this country I would never have visited without the military, I got the opportunity to live with the various cultures that form Switzerland as a whole, and met great people from other parts that helped shape my perception of this nation.

During those years, I only occasionally met people from my own canton, and I appreciated getting in touch with people from other areas. It's always good to widen one's perspective.

Although, as a self-employed small-scale businessman, my military service actually cost me a fortune, I must admit that I learned a lot I wouldn't want to miss.
A) in regard to the Canton aspect I freely and without hesitation admit that I exaggerated a bit, actually on purpose

B) I agree, as also I came to areas like the Engiadina and Orbe and Bière I would never have gone to without the army and learnt to know people from areas/professions I would never have met

C) as much as I personally detest the armed forces, I further on have to admit that I on the bottom line profited from the army in quite many ways

But I do not believe that the army really brings the union together in the way indicated above, really not
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  #156  
Old 13.11.2011, 23:38
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

buying new jets depends on the Swiss long term strategy.

if they reject a policy of total neutrality and engage with the military infrastructure of western europe it would make sense.

if they want to maintain total neutrality and self sufficiency forget about. They would just collect dust. Switzerland is not a super power it does not need to maintain superiority of anything.

Anyway you need to develop a long term threat assessment policy, where exactly is there a strong likely hood of a threat developing to Swiss interests? And what would be switzerland role in it? I do not think anyone really has prepared an arguement that addresses this.

If anything that money could be better spend or more realistic and probably threats. Not even terrorism, perhaps organised crime.
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Old 15.11.2011, 22:46
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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buying new jets depends on the Swiss long term strategy.

if they reject a policy of total neutrality and engage with the military infrastructure of western europe it would make sense.

if they want to maintain total neutrality and self sufficiency forget about. They would just collect dust. Switzerland is not a super power it does not need to maintain superiority of anything.

Anyway you need to develop a long term threat assessment policy, where exactly is there a strong likely hood of a threat developing to Swiss interests? And what would be switzerland role in it? I do not think anyone really has prepared an arguement that addresses this.

If anything that money could be better spend or more realistic and probably threats. Not even terrorism, perhaps organised crime.
Why buy new?
Do what the smart guys do!

Quote " The Royal Navy's entire fleet of Harrier jump jets, the British plane controversially scrapped in last year's defence review, has been saved – by the US military.
All 74 of the planes, which were permanently grounded by the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), are to fly again for the US marines, in a deal that is expected to be closed within a week.
The Ministry of Defence said negotiations were continuing but were in their final stages. And reports in the US suggested the marines were already confidently preparing for the Harriers' arrival."

Harriers would make more sense for Switzerland. Can be deployed anywhere; no large airfields needed. Ideal for covert or black operations.
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Old 16.11.2011, 01:01
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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buying new jets depends on the Swiss long term strategy.

if they reject a policy of total neutrality and engage with the military infrastructure of western europe it would make sense.

if they want to maintain total neutrality and self sufficiency forget about. They would just collect dust. Switzerland is not a super power it does not need to maintain superiority of anything.

Anyway you need to develop a long term threat assessment policy, where exactly is there a strong likely hood of a threat developing to Swiss interests? And what would be switzerland role in it? I do not think anyone really has prepared an arguement that addresses this.

If anything that money could be better spend or more realistic and probably threats. Not even terrorism, perhaps organised crime.
Quite to the contrary, exactly neutrality is a reason to have strong armed forces. It is no coincidence that countries like Finland, Sweden and Switzerland have fairly strong armed forces
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Old 16.11.2011, 01:07
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Why buy new?
Do what the smart guys do!

Quote " The Royal Navy's entire fleet of Harrier jump jets, the British plane controversially scrapped in last year's defence review, has been saved – by the US military.
All 74 of the planes, which were permanently grounded by the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), are to fly again for the US marines, in a deal that is expected to be closed within a week.
The Ministry of Defence said negotiations were continuing but were in their final stages. And reports in the US suggested the marines were already confidently preparing for the Harriers' arrival."

Harriers would make more sense for Switzerland. Can be deployed anywhere; no large airfields needed. Ideal for covert or black operations.

Harriers would have been and still would be THE ideal solution for Switzerland, but this way will not be ever accepted by the officer corps of this nation
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Old 16.11.2011, 15:22
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Quite to the contrary, exactly neutrality is a reason to have strong armed forces. It is no coincidence that countries like Finland, Sweden and Switzerland have fairly strong armed forces
It is also true that being a biligirant country requires strong armed forces. there is not really a trend line here for you to argue off. there is no real colleration between the two statistics it can be explained historically.

Finland and Sweden have spent the last 100 years with a hungry teritorial grabbing russian bear on its border not to mention their repeated attempts to conquer eachother before hand. And Switzerland in the middle of a politicaly instable EU for the last 150 years, which argueable settled down from the mid 60s.

So what is "exactly" contempoary needs for a military determine spending and its size not neutrality. i am yet to hear a convincing arguement for a NEED.

what we are doing here is arguing about different contracts for "Volcano Insurance".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjcuIFrVLAY

You also have not responded to my point about a risk assessment. Without a long term strategy based on a risk assessment any purchases are pointless.
i have no problem with people spending the money on what will be used. PLAN then SPEND. ask questions, critic the responses and then move forward.

the thrust of my arguement was towards will they ever be used in combat. remaining nuetral all but totally guarantees they will come out for air shows and that is really about it. if CH engages in the european defence alliances they could be sent of towards theatres like Libya and be USED.
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