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  #81  
Old 03.10.2011, 08:05
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

Florida has become a part of Latin America in many ways and in many parts you need to speak Spanish to secure a job. One of the reasons I have left. It is the problem with illegal immigration run amuk.
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Old 03.10.2011, 08:21
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Reactions to this thread proves that AGWV is right.
Which ones, in what way?

You don't really understand the basis of debate, let alone internet forums. You need to produce some facts and explain and expand you contribution.

If I followed your logic, I would simply answer "no it doesn't" and award you a groan...

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  #83  
Old 03.10.2011, 09:42
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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America has become a part of Europe in many ways and in many parts you need to speak English to secure a job. One of the reasons i have left. It is the problem with illegal immigration run amuk.

...............a......
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  #84  
Old 03.10.2011, 10:08
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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My first suspicion about Switzerland is that they were zenophobic because they didn't have a culture of immigration like in the U.S. I was surprised to to realize that 20% of Switzerland is comprised of immigrants compared to only 12% in the U.S.

The underlying assumption here is that the host country is doing the immigrant a favor. Clearly the relationship should benefit both parties, or one would be inclined to renege. Countries like Switzerland and the United States NEED immigrants. Switzerland's economic model is based upon the premise of immigration, both of wealthy immigrants and of people who possess the skills needed to run their international services businesses.

I don't understand the relationship that choosing to live somewhere voluntarily has to do with the right to participate in public discourse. If you live somewhere, participate in that community, pay taxes etc., not only do I think that you should have the right to criticize that country, to improve the place that you live, it's your responsibility to do so.
Yes, but everyone doesn't have the intelligence or are responsible enough to make the "necessary" changes a country might need. Many people talk loud, but say nothing. Besides, it's easy to go into somewhere, like another country perhaps, and criticize everything because everything is already done. But "most" of those grumbling aren't capable of changing situations in their own personal lives no less a country. Talk, Talk, Talk...everybody wants something, everybody wants to change the world, but few, very, very few have the ability to do it. There are those who "know what to do, and how to do it." Most don't...fortunately or unfortunately.
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  #85  
Old 03.10.2011, 10:42
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Note about schools: the US school system is set up so that anyone can register their kids for school regardless of who you are or you status in the country. No address? Your kid is just listed as homeless on the record books. We actually had a large number of British folks who would come to the east coast of Florida on holiday and register their kids in the local schools so they had an option on days when they needed a place for the kids to go. Absolutely true story. No one can be denied education.
Actually, this is changing in some states. It's where the Federal Gov mandating educational directives, but leaving it up to the states as how to implement it and the cities/school districts to pay for it. Some school districts are now mandating confirmation of residence (read paying taxes) in the district before enrolling the child.

On one side, I think there shouldn't be any barriers to children getting an education. On the other side, I've seen what not only illegal immigration does to the bottom line, but in particular, the mandate for 'no child left behind' that is really draining local school district's resources for special education (e.g. kids being sent to expensive private school on the public dime if the district couldn't accommodate them). When an average homeowner is paying upwards of $10k per year in property taxes and is still being asked for more or suffer the threat of program cuts to arts, sports, libraries, etc. in the elementary sections, it's more than just the illegal immigrants (who probably do pay rent in a building whose landlord pays prop taxes). At least in the town district I left behind, the vast part of the funding issues are due to the pensions and how many other school districts around the nation are going to fund those is the big question.

It would be interesting to know what the Swiss do or, rather, how it impacts funding, in some of the cities where so many immigrant children enter the school system every year, many without language skills. Even if they're legal and paying into the system, there's a burden on the bottom line in there.
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Old 03.10.2011, 11:54
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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ROFLMAO...excuse me for not knowing some backwoods dialect that is not taught in school and has no written language.
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It goes both ways...certainly...those who want to stay here should try to integrate, but those who keep bringing folks here should also do something to enable people to integrate, that includes thinking a bit outside the box, being a bit more open, etc.

Some folks will refuse to integrate at all, and some folks will refuse to accept a foreigner.
Bolds mine. Anyone else see a slight discrepancy here?

Anyway, for something that has no written form, there sure is a whole lot of it kicking about! "Chärns, äifach scheen", it says on the town sign near us. "Du muesch nochli wartä", on the kindergarten door. Not to mention countless kindergarten and church songs written in Swiss-German.

</off-topic>
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  #87  
Old 03.10.2011, 12:01
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Bolds mine. Anyone else see a slight discrepancy here?
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Anyway, for something that has no written form, there sure is a whole lot of it kicking about! "Chärns, äifach scheen", it says on the town sign near us. "Du muesch nochli wartä", on the kindergarten door. Not to mention countless kindergarten and church songs written in Swiss-German.

</off-topic>

I'm not staying.

There is no standard grammar or spelling for Swiss German. My girlfriend is from St. Gallen and works in Luzern and has a hard time understanding some people from the "forest cantons"...depending on where they are from.

There is no such thing as "Swiss German" there are continuous dialects of "Swiss Germans".

It is like learning Jamaican Patois in Jamaica. Where do you do that? Not school. There are thousands of Jamaican reggae songs in that dialect(s)...Shanghainese is not mutually intelligible with Mandarin, but it is "Chinese" and not taught anywhere...

Get the point?

Swiss German is a major barrier to integration, but that is another topic, and all of this is off topic.
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Old 03.10.2011, 12:20
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Swiss German is a major barrier to integration
And I'm sure the German speaking Swiss are gutted about that.
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  #89  
Old 03.10.2011, 16:49
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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This is mostly true.

My point really was some folks on this board (and some people in real life) speak and act as if this behavior ("shut up and go home") is normal, other people act the same...blah blah blah. No, not really. Americans (on average) do not. And no this is not isolated to Switzerland. I imagine in South Korea, a foreigner doing this might be attacked on the streets in public. (okay I have personal bias against Korea I admit but there are violent nationalist there I have witnessed)...much of the world is between Switzerland and Koreans attitude i think.

Not all of the world though.

i dont know what sort of rosy tinted glass youre seeing our homeland through, sir, but i would like to visit that place.

how many times have you heard "america, love it or leave it!" growing up? man i heard it all the freakin time and i grew up in (comparatively speaking) prosperous, progressive, literate, urban, secular Southern California in the 80s. I think one hears the same sorta SVP type rhetoric in the US. Border fence, English only everything in schools, etc etc... i think the difference between the US and Europe in regards to these sorts of statements is who you hear them from.

I do think that because of our older traditions in immigrant assimilation, we can have a better, longer range view of immigration. Those of us who listen to the Germans, French, Italians, Dutch, Swiss complain about the loss of their culture and threat to national sovreignty at the hands of the Turks, Algerians/Africans, Albanians, N African Arabs and Yugos, respectively, just sit back and hide a smile behind our glass of beer.

We've seen and heard the same sort of populist anti immigrant rhetoric before over the centuries, from the german immigrant waves during the political upheavals of the 1848 revolution and earlier, to the sicilians, to the waves of irish fleeing the famine, the poles fleeing conscription into the Czarist army during ww1... yeah yeah we've seen it, and we know its not the end of a culture or a community.

When one contrasts this attitude with a similarly educated european from the aforementioned cultures, sometimes the views on immigrants and their assimilation seem very crude compared to how well spoken they are about literature or politics or whatever. We yanks arent used to that, we associate such attitudes with the boorish and the un- or undereducated, since holding such opinions in the US is testament to being ignorant of our immigrant history. But its not a part of their history here. Its new.

As has been pointed out, Europe in general has, until very recently, been an exporter of people, not an importer, and have had very little experience (UK being the exception) of large amounts of foreign immigrants to integrate with. As such, i think the views on immigration can sound to american ears very immature and overly simplified. Not because theyre racist or nationalist, but just have a different attitude towards what makes someone what because they havent spent 200 years asking themselves this question the way we have.

Generally speaking i think identity with their homeland is still tied more strongly to race and religion than we are in the US (again, UK the exception). To me, "being an american" means youve been through our school system, been there long enough to get our humor and language, and live and work among us. I dont think most of us care about religion (certainly not confession), and despite the minority of mouth breathers who still do, i think a majority of us dont care about ethnic heritage either like we used to (when was the last time you heard white people discriminate against other white people because he was a pollack or a wop or a mc like they did in the 20s..)

But this is not how most western countries define their nationality. Its not "nationalism" in the bullying sense, its just an older fashioned view.

You ask an average swiss guy "what makes a swiss swiss", the answer will be more than the above. You might get religion (or depending on the canton, perhaps even cofession), dialekt, even their name... and this sense of being tied to the land and region (heimat) which Americans dont have in the same way.

I guess what im getting at in a very long winded manner, i believe your initial post of trying to argue that the swiss are more xenophobic or less tolerant of foreigners or their criticism isnt fair based on the examples you showed. We are ok with those journalists being critical of the US or whatever because despite their different mother tongues and homelands, we view them as americans. The swiss and indeed the rest of europe, imho, regard nationality differently, and more complicatedly, and depending on your moral slant towards it, either more archaically or more traditionally.

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  #90  
Old 03.10.2011, 18:56
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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i dont know what sort of rosy tinted glass youre seeing our homeland through, sir, but i would like to visit that place.

how many times have you heard "america, love it or leave it!" growing up? man i heard it all the freakin time and i grew up in (comparatively speaking) prosperous, progressive, literate, urban, secular Southern California in the 80s. I think one hears the same sorta SVP type rhetoric in the US. Border fence, English only everything in schools, etc etc... i think the difference between the US and Europe in regards to these sorts of statements is who you hear them from.

I do think that because of our older traditions in immigrant assimilation, we can have a better, longer range view of immigration. Those of us who listen to the Germans, French, Italians, Dutch, Swiss complain about the loss of their culture and threat to national sovreignty at the hands of the Turks, Algerians/Africans, Albanians, N African Arabs and Yugos, respectively, just sit back and hide a smile behind our glass of beer.

We've seen and heard the same sort of populist anti immigrant rhetoric before over the centuries, from the german immigrant waves during the political upheavals of the 1848 revolution and earlier, to the sicilians, to the waves of irish fleeing the famine, the poles fleeing conscription into the Czarist army during ww1... yeah yeah we've seen it, and we know its not the end of a culture or a community.

When one contrasts this attitude with a similarly educated european from the aforementioned cultures, sometimes the views on immigrants and their assimilation seem very crude compared to how well spoken they are about literature or politics or whatever. We yanks arent used to that, we associate such attitudes with the boorish and the un- or undereducated, since holding such opinions in the US is testament to being ignorant of our immigrant history. But its not a part of their history here. Its new.

As has been pointed out, Europe in general has, until very recently, been an exporter of people, not an importer, and have had very little experience (UK being the exception) of large amounts of foreign immigrants to integrate with. As such, i think the views on immigration can sound to american ears very immature and overly simplified. Not because theyre racist or nationalist, but just have a different attitude towards what makes someone what because they havent spent 200 years asking themselves this question the way we have.

Generally speaking i think identity with their homeland is still tied more strongly to race and religion than we are in the US (again, UK the exception). To me, "being an american" means youve been through our school system, been there long enough to get our humor and language, and live and work among us. I dont think most of us care about religion (certainly not confession), and despite the minority of mouth breathers who still do, i think a majority of us dont care about ethnic heritage either like we used to (when was the last time you heard white people discriminate against other white people because he was a pollack or a wop or a mc like they did in the 20s..)

But this is not how most western countries define their nationality. Its not "nationalism" in the bullying sense, its just an older fashioned view.

You ask an average swiss guy "what makes a swiss swiss", the answer will be more than the above. You might get religion (or depending on the canton, perhaps even cofession), dialekt, even their name... and this sense of being tied to the land and region (heimat) which Americans dont have in the same way.

I guess what im getting at in a very long winded manner, i believe your initial post of trying to argue that the swiss are more xenophobic or less tolerant of foreigners or their criticism isnt fair based on the examples you showed. We are ok with those journalists being critical of the US or whatever because despite their different mother tongues and homelands, we view them as americans. The swiss and indeed the rest of europe, imho, regard nationality differently, and more complicatedly, and depending on your moral slant towards it, either more archaically or more traditionally.
Glen:

In all honesty, no one has ever told me (or said around me) "Love it or leave it" it sounds like a Vietnam war movie. I've lived in 5 states (military family)...and having family in the military, I've been around some conservative folks.

As far as Switzerland, so what you are saying is America is "more evolved". Exactly.

Just kidding (kind of)...but yes, I agree with your analysis.

The main point is not the "why" but the fact there are alternatives to knee-jerk nationalism/xenophobia.

However, not that anyone will listen to reason...that's simply absurd.
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Old 03.10.2011, 19:11
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Actually, this is changing in some states. It's where the Federal Gov mandating educational directives, but leaving it up to the states as how to implement it and the cities/school districts to pay for it. Some school districts are now mandating confirmation of residence (read paying taxes) in the district before enrolling the child.

On one side, I think there shouldn't be any barriers to children getting an education. On the other side, I've seen what not only illegal immigration does to the bottom line, but in particular, the mandate for 'no child left behind' that is really draining local school district's resources for special education (e.g. kids being sent to expensive private school on the public dime if the district couldn't accommodate them). When an average homeowner is paying upwards of $10k per year in property taxes and is still being asked for more or suffer the threat of program cuts to arts, sports, libraries, etc. in the elementary sections, it's more than just the illegal immigrants (who probably do pay rent in a building whose landlord pays prop taxes). At least in the town district I left behind, the vast part of the funding issues are due to the pensions and how many other school districts around the nation are going to fund those is the big question.

It would be interesting to know what the Swiss do or, rather, how it impacts funding, in some of the cities where so many immigrant children enter the school system every year, many without language skills. Even if they're legal and paying into the system, there's a burden on the bottom line in there.
All foreigners legally residing in Switzerland (including 'approved' refugees) can send their children into school free-of-charge. It is NOT "even if they are legal" as more than 99% ARE legal. Most of the foreign children learn German fairly swiftly. The problem often gets exaggerated, even if of course existing. Many of the foreign communities have organisations assisting the education of the children of their members.

************************************************** *********************************

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Bolds mine. Anyone else see a slight discrepancy here?

Anyway, for something that has no written form, there sure is a whole lot of it kicking about! "Chärns, äifach scheen", it says on the town sign near us. "Du muesch nochli wartä", on the kindergarten door. Not to mention countless kindergarten and church songs written in Swiss-German.

</off-topic>
Most church songs are not in dialect but in Standard German, and the reverends give their "sermons" in Standard German as well. And it may be on the kindergarten door, but sure not on the door to school.

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  #92  
Old 04.10.2011, 13:22
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Glen:

In all honesty, no one has ever told me (or said around me) "Love it or leave it" it sounds like a Vietnam war movie. I've lived in 5 states (military family)...and having family in the military, I've been around some conservative folks.

As far as Switzerland, so what you are saying is America is "more evolved". Exactly.

Just kidding (kind of)...but yes, I agree with your analysis.

The main point is not the "why" but the fact there are alternatives to knee-jerk nationalism/xenophobia.

However, not that anyone will listen to reason...that's simply absurd.

well, in regards to immigration assimilation, yeah, i think the Americans are "more evolved", this is one of the few social issues where i think the US is ahead of europe.

Europe can certainly learn from the US in this regard, in the same way the US could learn from CH in terms of health care, transportation networks, vacation time, relationship employer and employee, job security, value on free time, attention to detail, quality, and how to make cheese that doesnt take like plastic.
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  #93  
Old 04.10.2011, 22:38
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

First of all, the US is changing quickly and not for the better.
In the past year I have been told several times now that "foreigners" like me are the problem in America. People have less inhibition now to say how they feel. Call it the tea party effect maybe.
But regarding journalism, I don't think the US is exceptional.
I think posters have mentioned Hayek but there is also Biver, an industrialist from Luxembourg that recently became Swiss and that people respect.
On the TSR, there is Dariush Rochebin (Swiss/Iranian) Esther Mamarbachi (Syrian). Le Temps has a journalist that is very talented and at times very critical of Switzerland, Myret Zaki (Egyptian). The eloquent Claude Torracinta (French). The very influential journalist Claude Smadja (Morocco).
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  #94  
Old 04.10.2011, 22:44
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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I was waiting for that one for quite a while. In reality, the Secondo / Swiss Cross thing simply shows that the SVP people, no matter how stupid they sometimes behave, do have a point once in a while, more often than most of us would like.
This is the part you got thanks for.

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Old 04.10.2011, 22:48
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Secondos here in Switzerland generally have been in CH long enough to become CH citizens fairly swiftly.
Plenty I knew (at the time) didn't want to as they'd have to give up their Italian citizenship (no longer an issue).

Tom
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Old 04.10.2011, 22:51
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Well, the man (it was NOT THE Secondos) did not ask the Swiss cross to be changed but just it to be re-considered and he did not call the country racist or backward. His mistakes were two ... A) he did not realize that the flag ages ago has become a symbol of the nation .... B) the "Helvetic Republic" as something forced upon people here has a very bad name here
Indeed, as it is "REPUBLIC and Canton of Ticino" (just should the shit ever hit the fan)

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Old 04.10.2011, 22:57
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Swiss German is a major barrier to integration
Not here!

Tom
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Old 04.10.2011, 23:01
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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In all honesty, no one has ever told me (or said around me) "Love it or leave it"
Guess you're under 45 or so?

Tom
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Old 04.10.2011, 23:01
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

And not there either
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Old 04.10.2011, 23:06
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Re: What Would Be The Swiss Response

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Most church songs are not in dialect but in Standard German
Unless you live in Ticino.

Trust me, there were no German songs at my mother-in-law's funeral last week!

Tom

P.S. We did play tunes by Popa Chubby and Aretha Franklin, and some Italian Nationalistic stuff (Bella Ciao), bot NOTHING in GERMAN!
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