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Old 10.10.2011, 15:51
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A Swiss court has cleared a man of wrongdoing after he failed to jump into the water to save his date from drowning in Lake Geneva.

Read the full article: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning
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Old 10.10.2011, 16:52
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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Swiss law does not make it mandatory to aid someone in danger.
.....
Nobody jumped in to save the woman despite the fact that the events took place at around 8pm, a time when the lake shore is full of people in the summer. Emergency services arrived 22 minutes after the man's first call, a delay that was fatal for the woman.
This raises an interesting question:
1) are there any countries which have a law that states it is mandatory to aid someone in danger?
2) a 22 min response time to an emergency call is pretty shocking, isn't it?
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Old 10.10.2011, 16:55
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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This raises an interesting question:
1) are there any countries which have a law that states it is mandatory to aid someone in danger?
2) a 22 min response time to an emergency call is pretty shocking, isn't it?
1) I believe France does (weren't those papparazzis in court because of Diana)
The closest or overall term is "duty to rescue" if I remember correctly.
2)Sometimes (not that I have done it) it might be easier to say that Someone has been shot on armed robbery. Although you might get thrown in jail for wasting resources.
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:20
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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This raises an interesting question:
1) are there any countries which have a law that states it is mandatory to aid someone in danger?
I thought Switzerland had a Wikipedia reference-linkGood samaritan law, but the article only mentions France briefly.
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:21
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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I thought Switzerland had a Wikipedia reference-linkGood samaritan law, the article only mentions France briefly.

Good samaritan laws are primarily made to incentive the rescuers to help without the threat of a lawsuit for "wrongdoing". At least that is my understanding of them.

EDIT: Aha... the link provides the answer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_sa...duty_to_rescue
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:32
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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Good samaritan laws are primarily made to incentive the rescuers to help without the threat of a lawsuit for "wrongdoing". At least that is my understanding of them.

EDIT: Aha... the link provides the answer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_sa...duty_to_rescue
I believe I read once that UK health & safety laws inhibit police from jumping in & attempting to save people; or maybe I dreamt it.

No did not dream it
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2512401.ece
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:36
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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1) I believe France does
Yes, it does - "non assistance à personne en danger" is punishable by up to 5 years in prison or 75,000€ fine (source for the figures is Wikipedia).
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:49
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

I recently read that pharmacies here will shortly be selling inky rubber stamps that patients can use to write "Do not resuscitate" on their chests.

http://www.20min.ch/wissen/gesundheit/story/17124846

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nked-back.html

Excellent idea, but an expert states that rescue services are committed to saving lives, and that the stamp would be ignored!

Google translation:
In addition, legal questions remain unanswered. They would therefore "currently reanimate despite the stamp," says Portmann. Marinello will, however, "take every legal track, which revived me against my will."
Clear instructions for doctors and paramedics are therefore inevitable. Because in a few weeks will be able to buyIn addition, legal questions remain unanswered. They would therefore "currently to reanimate despite stamp," says Portmann. Marinello will, however, "every legal track, which revived me against my will." Clear instructions for doctors and paramedics are therefore inevitable. Because in a few weeks it will be possible to buy the stamp in pharmacies.
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:50
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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I believe I read once that UK health & safety laws inhibit police from jumping in & attempting to save people; or maybe I dreamt it.

No did not dream it
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2512401.ece
stupid law. i suppose you need to specifically ask for a lifeguard when dialing emergency services in the UK in the case of a potential drowning.
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Old 10.10.2011, 17:55
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

the other day, i read a blog post about a lifeguard trying to give first aid to someone at a restaurant while 2 nurses refused to do anything because they were too scared of litigation if the man died.

in the end, we all pay for the lawsuit culture.
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Old 10.10.2011, 18:31
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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the other day, i read a blog post about a lifeguard trying to give first aid to someone at a restaurant while 2 nurses refused to do anything because they were too scared of litigation if the man died.

in the end, we all pay for the lawsuit culture.
So true and in a much harsher way.
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Old 10.10.2011, 18:44
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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I recently read that pharmacies here will shortly be selling inky rubber stamps that patients can use to write "Do not resuscitate" on their chests.
Cool. I'll use indelible ink and stamp it on people I don't like.
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Old 10.10.2011, 18:52
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

I took the first aid exam with the Samaritaner earlier this year and one thing we were taught was that here in Switzerland there's no "duty to rescue", meaning a person cannot be held liable for failing to aid someone in peril.

At the same time, the "Good Samaritan Law" applies as well here in Switzerland, meaning that if a person does in fact help, he or she will not be sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death.

In summary, you don't have to help, and if you do, you won't face prosecution if things go amiss. It's a way to encourage people to try their best and help, there's nothing to lose and you may save a life.

Please bear in mind that even if you don't know what to do, it doesn't mean there's no use for you. Let someone more experienced/skilled do the technical stuff if you don't know what to do, but do stick around. You may be asked to call the ambulance, or fetch a blanket, or keep a nosy crowd at bay, and so on. That too will make a difference.

BTW, I'm going to specialize in water rescue, if anyone has specific questions about that, let me know, I can ask the "experts" as soon as I start my training.
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Old 10.10.2011, 20:47
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

The Local startles us all with more amazing headlines and wizard journalism. Could the literature prize be waiting in the wings.....?
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Old 10.10.2011, 21:58
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

If someone is in difficulty in the water, and you dive in to save them, unless you know what you're doing, there is a significant risk of two deaths instead of one.

At least, that's the logic applied in the case from the UK.
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Old 10.10.2011, 22:27
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

I now have to carry a GTN spray in case of a heart attack.

If I happened to be with someone who had an attack I wonder what the repercussions would be if I sprayed it under their tongue to open their arteries?

If they survived that is great, but if they did not- would I be prosecuted?
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Old 10.10.2011, 23:33
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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I now have to carry a GTN spray in case of a heart attack.

If I happened to be with someone who had an attack I wonder what the repercussions would be if I sprayed it under their tongue to open their arteries?

If they survived that is great, but if they did not- would I be prosecuted?
I can't reply for sure, mostly because I know nothing about GTN and its effects and how dangerous it can be. Based on what I was taught so far when training in first aid, my guess is that if you have reason to believe GTN helps in such circumstances (i.e. you're acting in good faith) you shouldn't be prosecuted.

Personally, my biggest concern would be whether or not there's a risk I may kill or hurt that person whose life is already in danger. I'd rather play safe - I wouldn't feel comfortable administering a drug not knowing how that person may react to it. As I said, I don't know anything about the GTN spray. We were taught the aspirin trick, though: in case of heart attack aspirin helps opening the arteries. However, there are risks, again, so you first need to make sure they are not allergic it. And even if they're not, administering aspirin means the standard procedure can't be followed and a different kind of medicine has to be administer once the ambulance arrives. (Medical staff must be immediately informed that aspirin was administered to the patient).

Based on that, I assume the same caution should be taken before administering GTN. If you happened to be with someone who had a heart attack, the first thing I recommend doing is calling an ambulance. When you do so, mention you suspect a heart attack and ask them whether the use of said spray is advisable or not, then simply follow any instructions you'll be given.

(Hopefully someone with medical training can offer further advice)
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Old 10.10.2011, 23:55
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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I now have to carry a GTN spray in case of a heart attack.

If I happened to be with someone who had an attack I wonder what the repercussions would be if I sprayed it under their tongue to open their arteries?

If they survived that is great, but if they did not- would I be prosecuted?
For me, I wouldn't personally administer a controlled substance even if it were in good faith. Over the counter medicines like asprin etc ok, but prescription only products, I think may be a difficult one to argue if they ended up dying as a result. If it is their medication fine thats a different story.
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Old 11.10.2011, 12:18
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

It is quite common that someone drowning will, in panick, pull his rescuer down with him. My trainer told us to always have a safety gilet and if not, to first knock out the person before to bring her back to the shore.
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Old 11.10.2011, 12:29
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Re: Passive lover cleared over Geneva drowning

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If someone is in difficulty in the water, and you dive in to save them, unless you know what you're doing, there is a significant risk of two deaths instead of one.

At least, that's the logic applied in the case from the UK.
It also happens often when people try to save their dogs.
Sometimes, the dog somehow survives while the owner drowns, sometimes both die.
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