Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
If you happen to speak two languages fluently, you can get a free 7 points by doing the B course. (Amazingly, some fluent speakers didn't! Don't ask me why.)
Bilinguals are not meant to be in the language B course but take two languages A and get the bilingual diploma. If the school does not take the recommendations of the organization they signed for, that's a different story. Maybe they didn't read the part about ethics.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:14
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 76
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 39 Times in 19 Posts
LordNacho has annoyed a few people around hereLordNacho has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Bilinguals are not meant to be in the language B course but take two languages A and get the bilingual diploma. If the school does not take the recommendations of the organization they signed for, that's a different story. Maybe they didn't read the part about ethics.
I think it's a bit ridiculous to ask someone to do the same thing in two languages. If you're more focused on sciences for instance, you'd be burdened with reading quite a large pile of literature books. And why should they have to? Because they happen to be good at another language?

At the end of the day, it's up to the students what they want to learn. You're saying it's unethical to not take the hardest possible course?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
I think it's a bit ridiculous to ask someone to do the same thing in two languages.
You don't do twice the same thing as it's not twice the same language. Nothing wrong with getting your both languages at an adult level. It's not about commenting texts, it's not about knowing specific phases of literary history. It's about getting your languages up to a good academic level. And you do that in a course in mother tongue, not in foreign language (transfer to A-language, B-language international school jargon).
If you want to speak and write your second language like a teenager when you are 20, fine by me. But you won't be as bilingual as you think you are.

And Danish is not that hard to learn in the first place.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:29
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

I've taught many 'so-called' bilingual children in the UK - and most of them, although quite fluent orally, had very poor grammar and formal vocabulary, and couldn't cope at all with expressing themselves in debating issues and writing essays, as clearly required by the UK A'Level syllabus.

Of course when I went to Uni as an adult in the UK, because I had a Swiss Baccalaureat, I had to have an intensive interview to demonstrate that my English was of an adequate standard to cope with the content of the course (not much chance of asking them to teach me in French I can assure you), both orally and in writing. And of course adequate for teaching later-on.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:47
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 76
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 39 Times in 19 Posts
LordNacho has annoyed a few people around hereLordNacho has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
If you want to speak and write your second language like a teenager when you are 20, fine by me. But you won't be as bilingual as you think you are.

And Danish is not that hard to learn in the first place.
Yeah, it would be terrible to have the language level of a 19 year old when you're 20.

But seriously, it's not hard to be bilingual even without doing a lit course. So you may not know what the relevance of Johannes V Jensen was. Or George Eliot. Big deal. If you can read books and write text that other people can understand (not to mention speak), that's knowing a language.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
But seriously, it's not hard to be bilingual even without doing a lit course.
I am afraid that your word doesn't win against my teaching career experience. Sorry. But you don't have to believe me either.
If you are happy with your level in your languages, fine by me. But let other people the judge of your actual level.


Quote:
View Post
If you can read books and write text that other people can understand (not to mention speak), that's knowing a language.
That's just funny. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 26.03.2012, 20:12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 76
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 39 Times in 19 Posts
LordNacho has annoyed a few people around hereLordNacho has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
I am afraid that your word doesn't win against my teaching career experience. Sorry. But you don't have to believe me either.
If you are happy with your level in your languages, fine by me. But let other people the judge of your actual level.
My teachers think I'm fluent (if you're in the IB system, you might have met them). Nobody has ever told me I wasn't fluent in those two languages. Ok, I'm not writing a novel any time soon, but we're talking fluency, not mastery.

I'd have thought it somewhat obvious that taking a higher level is going to develop someone more, but you have to admit people can be fluent without doing so.

Quote:
That's just funny. Thanks.
Well, here's your chance to teach then...
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 26.03.2012, 20:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
but we're talking fluency, not mastery.
You're starting to get it. Good.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 26.03.2012, 20:56
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 76
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 39 Times in 19 Posts
LordNacho has annoyed a few people around hereLordNacho has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
You're starting to get it. Good.
Didn't think you were up for it. Those who can...
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 26.03.2012, 21:56
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,808
Groaned at 2,373 Times in 1,727 Posts
Thanked 38,777 Times in 18,269 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
It's about getting your languages up to a good academic level.
Indeed, well pointed out, in my case due to my spoken French accent not being commensurate with my clear knowledge of the language (I can conjugate, and correctly use, pretty much any French verb and any tense).

Actually, it was a toss up between those (especially from Paris or Geneva) who though that it was fake (NOT!), and those who liked it (other Swiss, Vaucluse), in fact a friend's daughter once told me (a French teacher from Vaucluse) that she could still hear in my voice that I had learned it there!

But my accent still sucks!

And I don't care!

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 26.03.2012, 22:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,983
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Canton Zurich cuts access to international schools

I will never understand why nearly every thread on the EF that deals with languages always ends up in the same place, or at least within the margin of error.



as for the original issue, the international schools are in some cases used by extremely wealthy Swiss (and to a lesser extent German) parents as an alternative to gymnasium. and, candidly, in many cases not having those kids in the international schools would be doing a favor to the rest of the student population at those schools.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 13.09.2013, 12:34
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baden
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Janka6762 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

I fully agree. No restriction should be necessary. Everybody should be free to decide. I do support the International schools and strongly believe that multilingual education is important especially for bilingual children.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 13.09.2013, 13:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: ZH
Posts: 987
Groaned at 24 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 1,344 Times in 501 Posts
arrow has a reputation beyond reputearrow has a reputation beyond reputearrow has a reputation beyond reputearrow has a reputation beyond reputearrow has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
I fully agree. No restriction should be necessary. Everybody should be free to decide. I do support the International schools and strongly believe that multilingual education is important especially for bilingual children.

Janka, I haven't read all of this thread, but it seems to have deviated from the beginning. However, your "support of international schools and bilingual education" statement was, to me, amusing.

When we arrived to CH, our neighbors sent their 3 children to public school, and we sent our 3 to Zurich International School. Today, their children speak, and write, perfect French, German, and English. Our daughter managed to pick up the languages orally, though she cannot properly write them and our sons are completely handicapped locallly, as their German is insufficient!

The international schools need to improve their foreign language departments, or they can change their name to International Ghetto School.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank arrow for this useful post:
  #54  
Old 13.09.2013, 13:09
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baden
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Janka6762 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Wow that surprised me.... hard to believe....I worked many years as a teacher at International school and still am the "part of the group" in some way...)

Many schools are different in the approach and also teachers are different. Did you try to change the teacher within the school?
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 14.09.2013, 00:07
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Wow that surprised me.... hard to believe....I worked many years as a teacher at International school and still am the "part of the group" in some way...)

Many schools are different in the approach and also teachers are different. Did you try to change the teacher within the school?
I hear about 3 AND 3 = a total of 6 . And so find it difficult to believe in the teachers being the reason. I believe however that the teachers in public school have to accept realities of life, while the ones in the "international" schools can celebrate "English". What can be read above explains why German speaking Swiss abroad often prefer, if having the choice, the German schools over the "international" schools.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #56  
Old 14.09.2013, 06:52
swiss_in_training's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,350
Groaned at 19 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 1,392 Times in 606 Posts
swiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Janka, I haven't read all of this thread, but it seems to have deviated from the beginning. However, your "support of international schools and bilingual education" statement was, to me, amusing.

When we arrived to CH, our neighbors sent their 3 children to public school, and we sent our 3 to Zurich International School. Today, their children speak, and write, perfect French, German, and English. Our daughter managed to pick up the languages orally, though she cannot properly write them and our sons are completely handicapped locallly, as their German is insufficient!

The international schools need to improve their foreign language departments, or they can change their name to International Ghetto School.
Perhaps those three children are exceptionally gifted or things are changing now. In my experience at the ETH, I have rarely worked with a Swiss student whose English proficiency was even close to fluent, especially in writing. I can't judge their French, but they generally switch to English when speaking with French colleagues, so I suspect they are more comfortable in English.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank swiss_in_training for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 14.09.2013, 07:13
drmom's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Somewhere in SG
Posts: 2,341
Groaned at 12 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,187 Times in 1,050 Posts
drmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Janka, I haven't read all of this thread, but it seems to have deviated from the beginning. However, your "support of international schools and bilingual education" statement was, to me, amusing.

When we arrived to CH, our neighbors sent their 3 children to public school, and we sent our 3 to Zurich International School. Today, their children speak, and write, perfect French, German, and English. Our daughter managed to pick up the languages orally, though she cannot properly write them and our sons are completely handicapped locallly, as their German is insufficient!

The international schools need to improve their foreign language departments, or they can change their name to International Ghetto School.
Susan -how many years were they in the schools in CH? IIRC, you spent time in Portugal and South America as well? I know my nieces and newphews go to one in Germany and 2 of them are in the bilingual path where some of the classes are in German and English. But it was a concern of mine (apart from the fact that we didn't have that much disposable cash) that the kids wouldn't be as proficient in the local language if they went to an international school.

I guess in general the purpose of the international school is to maintain English instruction for people who move around the world, and not to support locals going to school all throughout their career. I know my BIL has said the school in Germany isn't that interested in having local kids... Anyways, it is an interesting debate...for me the costs just couldn't be justified
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank drmom for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 14.09.2013, 16:32
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Perhaps those three children are exceptionally gifted or things are changing now. In my experience at the ETH, I have rarely worked with a Swiss student whose English proficiency was even close to fluent, especially in writing. I can't judge their French, but they generally switch to English when speaking with French colleagues, so I suspect they are more comfortable in English.
Let's apologize on behalf of Switzerland, but this nation apparently has a confusing effect on you Because fluent .... in writing defies common sense ETH is a technical university filled with students who never had to use either French or English in practice. And whose stronger side most likely is the mathematical and technical side. I am sure that the matter looks differently already in case of the university. And people who are to conclude their apprenticeship at KV commercial school had to use both English and French, mostly in writing but also on the phone, during a good part of their apprenticeships
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 14.09.2013, 16:48
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Susan -how many years were they in the schools in CH? IIRC, you spent time in Portugal and South America as well? I know my nieces and newphews go to one in Germany and 2 of them are in the bilingual path where some of the classes are in German and English. But it was a concern of mine (apart from the fact that we didn't have that much disposable cash) that the kids wouldn't be as proficient in the local language if they went to an international school.

I guess in general the purpose of the international school is to maintain English instruction for people who move around the world, and not to support locals going to school all throughout their career. I know my BIL has said the school in Germany isn't that interested in having local kids... Anyways, it is an interesting debate...for me the costs just couldn't be justified
And what relatives did they have ? And where did they spend their holidays ? I some three years ago at a secondary school class reunion, when praising teacher Mr R.M. got a laughing reply from a girl / lady who long ago became teacher herself telling me that R.M. loved my oral French. I stated that my French in those times was not so superior and that I did not understand more of the text than the others --- Back came Sure, but it sounded French ..... it sounded like a lazy French schoolboy struggling with the text . Well, Dr Dr R.M. had realized that I from my French speaking relatives knew how French had to sound. Dr Dr R.M. also knew that with English speaking relatives and on holidays in Italy, me was the Mr BlaBla who had to do the talking as my older brother was not in a mood to talk "Auslšndisch" ever
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 14.09.2013, 16:58
swiss_in_training's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,350
Groaned at 19 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 1,392 Times in 606 Posts
swiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond reputeswiss_in_training has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Zurich cuts access to international schools

Quote:
View Post
Let's apologize on behalf of Switzerland, but this nation apparently has a confusing effect on you Because fluent .... in writing defies common sense ETH is a technical university filled with students who never had to use either French or English in practice. And whose stronger side most likely is the mathematical and technical side. I am sure that the matter looks differently already in case of the university. And people who are to conclude their apprenticeship at KV commercial school had to use both English and French, mostly in writing but also on the phone, during a good part of their apprenticeships
Yep, I am not a morning person. Good on you for picking up on that. Now let me clarify-these cream of the crop Swiss students generally write very poorly in English, even though Susan57 claims that the schools here teach them to write perfectly.

Because they are at the ETH in the basic sciences, they've been taught in English since year three of University. They have written a Master's thesis in English. They absolutely need to use English "in practice," as in daily.

Basically, I think it is ridiculous to assume or even expect that a student who is taught primarily in German will have perfect English skills, as Susan57 suggests, just as the International schools can't be expected to teach primarily in English and pump out fluent German speakers with excellent German writing skills.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------
Where are we going and what's with this handbasket?

Last edited by swiss_in_training; 14.09.2013 at 17:15. Reason: I'm grumpy from not enough sleep...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dailey life, education, family, finances, news




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Zurich: International Schools Soni35 Family matters/health 23 03.01.2015 12:11
International Schools Zurich/Lucerne chalam Family matters/health 3 03.03.2010 21:37
Moving to Zurich & international schools. racheldale Family matters/health 13 25.11.2009 13:25
Swiss schools or International schools can't decide Shenanigans Education 6 27.02.2008 16:12


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0