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  #21  
Old 19.10.2011, 16:49
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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No you cannot as foreigners all drive SUVs. And increase the rents. And at the same time offer to work for dumping salaries. There would not be any global warming either without them either.
Totally agree with this. One thing that annoys me is that in the foreigner debate all issues get mixed together. For exampe for this initiative they were advertising with the story about 2 Kosovorans stabbing a SVP guy. This has absolutely got nothing to do with the subject.
Firstly they're already here. An initiative which restricts people coming here can't do anything about the ones here.
Secondly thanks to the expulsion initiative people like these will be automatically expelled anyway
Thirdly the initiative is aimed at the bilateral contracts with the EU. As Kosovo is in it, Kosovoans won't be affected by this vote anyway.

Another example is that the SVP has said they have no problem with highly qualified foreigners coming here. This is mostly aimed at those foreigners working for dumping wages. Yet these highly qualified foreigners are the ones forcing the Swiss out of Citys. The solution of the SVP is to limit foreigners....obviously
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  #22  
Old 19.10.2011, 17:14
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Another example is that the SVP has said they have no problem with highly qualified foreigners coming here. This is mostly aimed at those foreigners working for dumping wages. Yet these highly qualified foreigners are the ones forcing the Swiss out of Citys. The solution of the SVP is to limit foreigners....obviously
Precisely. A scapegoat is a scapegoat. You don't get to say, well, the rich scapegoats are ok while the poor ones have to go....I'd mention a country to the North in the late 1930s who chose a particular group to scapegoat for all that ailed the country and then moved forward with that propaganda without picking only a certain kind of that group out for being ok, but I don't want to invoke Godwin.

The SVP is extreme, but they are using a well worn tactic by all such extreme groups by tapping into fear which is easily motivated by making a group of easily identifiable people to blame. It will be interesting to see just how far they get if the measure passes.
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  #23  
Old 19.10.2011, 22:37
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Daft comments stack more likely. Not a single party (even the far right Swiss Democrats) wants to send all foreigners home, not sure where you got that from. It's about limiting further growth, not sure what you want to say with your calculations.
About "Not a single party (even the far right Swiss Democrats) wants to send all foreigners home, not sure where you got that from"

I got this from an SVP advert on "Masseinwanderung stoppen" on 16th October (Sunday Blick, 16th Oct. page 26.) which states "Damit ihre Kinder nicht die einzigen Schweizer in der Klasse sind"
I understand this means something like "consequently your children are not the only Swiss in the class". I do not see how this status can be achieved without sending foreigners home? Can you explain?
If less foreigners come into the country in future it will not reduce the number of foreign children in todays classes; it could do in the future but this is does not achieve what the advert promises now.

About "not sure what you want to say with your calculations" Sorry but if you do not understand simple arithmetic that is not my problem.
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  #24  
Old 19.10.2011, 22:49
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I was refering in my post to net immigration as whole, not just from the EU. In 2008 net immigration was more than 100'000.

Source: see excel file: Wanderung der ständigen Wohnbevölkerung: http://http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/p...k/data/01.html

But maybe I was wrong to blame the free movement of persons: the stats also show that Switzerland experienced similiar waves of immigration in the sixties and early 90's when foreigners still needed a residence permit in order to work in Switzerland. Probably a certain unease stems from the fact that Switzerland has partly lost its means to control immigration as EU-citizens have now the right to settle in Switzerland.
About "In 2008 net immigration was more than 100'000."

no it was not - please quote your source with a working link.
BTW, you should not be looking at statistics about "Wanderung der ständigen Wohnbevölkerung"

You should look for statistics about "ausländische Wohnbevölkerung "

"ausländische " means foreigners
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Old 19.10.2011, 23:32
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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About "In 2008 net immigration was more than 100'000."

no it was not - please quote your source with a working link.
BTW, you should not be looking at statistics about "Wanderung der ständigen Wohnbevölkerung"

You should look for statistics about "ausländische Wohnbevölkerung "

"ausländische " means foreigners
I was talking about net immigration (=Wanderungssaldo) in my post, which was 98'200 in 2008. if we are only talking about foreigners it was even 103'400 as more Swiss left the country than returned.

You will find the stats on the bfs-site: bfs/themen/bevölkerung/bevölkerungsbewegung/Indikatoren/wanderungen
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  #26  
Old 19.02.2012, 21:20
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I was talking about net immigration (=Wanderungssaldo) in my post, which was 98'200 in 2008. if we are only talking about foreigners it was even 103'400 as more Swiss left the country than returned.

You will find the stats on the bfs-site: bfs/themen/bevölkerung/bevölkerungsbewegung/Indikatoren/wanderungen
Seems the net number of foreigners in Switzerland fell in 2009 & 2010 & only rose by 3% in 2011.

This aligns better with my interpretation of the bfs numbers than yours?

See last paragraph
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=32109896
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Old 19.02.2012, 22:09
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Seems the net number of foreigners in Switzerland fell in 2009 & 2010 & only rose by 3% in 2011.

This aligns better with my interpretation of the bfs numbers than yours?

See last paragraph
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=32109896
No, not at all. Net immigration dropped from a peak of 98'200 in 2008 to 74'600 in 2009 and 64'900 in 2010. Now net immigration has risen again to 75'000 in 2011.

I wrote " And I'm also not sure if a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year is really sustainable for such a small country in the long run." So the immigrations figures on bfs-website square exactly with what I said.
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Old 19.02.2012, 22:28
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

SVP will keep all black people here in Swaziland to promote the multikulti look. All white banker foreigners should be worried right about now. Later white foreigners
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  #29  
Old 20.02.2012, 00:20
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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No, not at all. Net immigration dropped from a peak of 98'200 in 2008 to 74'600 in 2009 and 64'900 in 2010. Now net immigration has risen again to 75'000 in 2011.

I wrote " And I'm also not sure if a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year is really sustainable for such a small country in the long run." So the immigrations figures on bfs-website square exactly with what I said.
according to the bfs
2007 1’602’093 foreign citizens lived in Switzerland
2008 1’669’715
2009 1,714,004
2010 1,766,277
2011 1,772,279
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Old 20.02.2012, 14:08
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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according to the bfs
2007 1’602’093 foreign citizens lived in Switzerland
2008 1’669’715
2009 1,714,004
2010 1,766,277
2011 1,772,279

This figures won't tell you much about net immigration. Don't forget that the number of foreigners living in Switzerland doesn't rise more sharpely due to fact that thousands of foreigners obtain Swiss citizenship every year.

I don't understand why can't find the right figures on the bfs-website. Unfortunately the direct link doesn't work. Just go to Bevölkerung/Bevölkerungsbewegung/Indikatoren: It's the table on top of the page, third column "Wanderungssaldo".
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Old 20.02.2012, 14:21
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Don't forget that the number of foreigners living in Switzerland doesn't rise more sharpely due to fact that thousands of foreigners obtain Swiss citizenship every year.
Erm, well, I claim the opposite: The number is only so high because it is so difficult to get the citizenship. In order to do so does one have to live in the same village for many years - something that made sense in the 50s but does not reflect todays society with much more regular job changes anymore... and then you need to have an acceptable nationality and family name or the locals might still reject you.

The number of naturalizations is actually declining (according ot 20min yesterday...). The people who most wanted as Swiss passport are Non-EU immigrants or to say it more directly the refugees from former Yugoslavia. They got it by now. The others have little to no incentive to get a Swiss passport.
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  #32  
Old 20.02.2012, 16:49
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Erm, well, I claim the opposite: The number is only so high because it is so difficult to get the citizenship. In order to do so does one have to live in the same village for many years - something that made sense in the 50s but does not reflect todays society with much more regular job changes anymore... and then you need to have an acceptable nationality and family name or the locals might still reject you.

The number of naturalizations is actually declining (according ot 20min yesterday...). The people who most wanted as Swiss passport are Non-EU immigrants or to say it more directly the refugees from former Yugoslavia. They got it by now. The others have little to no incentive to get a Swiss passport.
I think you missed the point. I know that it's relatively difficult to get Swiss citizenship and the percentage of foreigners in Switzerland would be lower if we had naturalisations laws similar to the ones in our neighbouring countries. But even with these tough nationalisation requirements in place, there're several thousands of new Swiss every year. Therefore that annual change in numbers of foreigners living in Switzerland doesn't correspond with net immigrations. So the figures Marton qouted won't tell you how many people entered or left Switzerland.

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Old 20.02.2012, 23:40
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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The far-right Swiss People's Party (SVP) has claimed to have gathered enough support to push for a referendum aimed at "stopping mass immigration", which could have implications for the country's bilateral deal with the EU.

Read the full article: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote
I've seen SVP ranting within the Business Groups of LinkedIn.
As a newcomer immigrant I shall be watching closely.
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  #34  
Old 22.02.2012, 13:08
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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This figures won't tell you much about net immigration. Don't forget that the number of foreigners living in Switzerland doesn't rise more sharpely due to fact that thousands of foreigners obtain Swiss citizenship every year.

I don't understand why can't find the right figures on the bfs-website. Unfortunately the direct link doesn't work. Just go to Bevölkerung/Bevölkerungsbewegung/Indikatoren: It's the table on top of the page, third column "Wanderungssaldo".

I asked the bfs to explain the difference between your (higher) numbers & my lower numbers.

They kindly sent me a spread sheet which shows that your net migration figure includes people who are already here but change status the "Statuswechsel von der nicht-ständigen zur ständigen ausländischen Wohnbevölkerung"
These people make up between 35% & 95% of the the net migration figure depending on which year you look at & account for the difference we see.

So the number of new people entering the country by crossing the border each year is my (lower) number.

Last edited by marton; 08.12.2017 at 17:38.
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Old 22.02.2012, 21:27
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I asked the bfs to explain the difference between your (higher) numbers & my lower numbers.

They kindly sent me a spread sheet which shows that your net migration figure includes people who are already here but change status the "Statuswechsel von der nicht-ständigen zur ständigen ausländischen Wohnbevölkerung"
These people make up between 35% & 95% of the the net migration figure depending on which year you look at & account for the difference we see.

So the number of new people entering the country by crossing the border each year is my (lower) number.
Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. I still maintain tough that the change in numbers of foreigners living in Switzerland doesn't correspond to net immigration, simply because arround 40'000 foreigners get Swiss citizenship every year.

I also think you can only discount the people who have change their status from "non-permanent" to "permanent" if they entered Switzerland before 2002, i.e. the introduction of the free movement of persons. So if somebody entered Switzerland in 2004 as a "non-permanent" and changed his status in 2006, there's no reason to exclude him from the statistics. His presence is just recorded statistically two years after his entry.
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  #36  
Old 23.02.2012, 14:17
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. I still maintain tough that the change in numbers of foreigners living in Switzerland doesn't correspond to net immigration, simply because arround 40'000 foreigners get Swiss citizenship every year.

I also think you can only discount the people who have change their status from "non-permanent" to "permanent" if they entered Switzerland before 2002, i.e. the introduction of the free movement of persons. So if somebody entered Switzerland in 2004 as a "non-permanent" and changed his status in 2006, there's no reason to exclude him from the statistics. His presence is just recorded statistically two years after his entry.
As long as we can agree on the facts (in so much as statistics represent facts) feel free to interpret the numbers however best suits your case.

Interesting decision today "Italy violated international human rights laws when it intercepted migrants adrift in the Mediterranean in 2009 and returned them to Libya, the European court of human rights has ruled.
Italian authorities returned them by ship to Tripoli, where they were handed over to Libyan authorities without efforts to identify them, screen them or offer them asylum procedures."

Seems possible this SVP proposal could conflict with this ruling & Switzerland has since a long time signed up to the European court of human rights

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