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Old 18.10.2011, 10:48
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The far-right Swiss People's Party (SVP) has claimed to have gathered enough support to push for a referendum aimed at "stopping mass immigration", which could have implications for the country's bilateral deal with the EU.

Read the full article: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote
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Old 18.10.2011, 21:39
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

It's such a shame....
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Old 18.10.2011, 22:27
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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It's such a shame....
The Local? Yes, we know, but they own the place.
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Old 18.10.2011, 22:29
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

According to the article "At the end of August 31, 2011, foreigners living in Switzerland numbered 1.751 million, making up 22.3 percent of the country's 7.9 million-strong population."

So assuming unemployment is around 3% if they send the foreigners home who make up 22% of the population then 19% (20%-3%) of the jobs will be vacant with no possibility to fill them.

Wonder how this country can function with around 1 in 5 jobs vacant & no possibility to fill them? Put this on the daft ideas stack!
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Old 18.10.2011, 22:43
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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So assuming unemployment is around 3% if they send the foreigners home who make up 22% of the population then 19% (20%-3%) of the jobs will be vacant with no possibility to fill them.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Wonder how this country can function with around 1 in 5 jobs vacant & no possibility to fill them? Put this on the daft ideas stack!
Well as much as many of us may dislike SVP, noone is about to send home all the foreigners - not even Blocher and his hillibilly friends.
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Old 19.10.2011, 04:53
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

Ok, this vote is again a smart strategy and has in fact very little to do with immigration at all!

Switzerland has signed into the Schengen treaty, which allows the free movement of it's citizens around the treaty area. So in principle could one day say all Austrians stand up and decide that the mountains in Switzerland are much nicers... and the Swiss could not do anything against it.

Before the treaty was the SVP fear mongering like mad - we will all be swamped by Polish workers and all lose our jobs. Didn't happen. But this does not stop them from trying to kill the Schengen membership anyway - because it's a pseudo-religious political agenda not based on facts or numbers. As there would not be a majority in parliament to do something unlogical and frankly bad for the Swiss economony - especially in the current situationa - the SVP uses once again the referendum as a tool.

They make up some unreasonable claim (there is no mass-immigration right now, is there?) and bombard the masses with posters. Worked with the minarets so there is a decent chance it will work again. And the SVP cannot lose:
- if they lose the vote, they can from then on blame anything on the opposition. And they are very unlikely to lose in a landslide, so if you have some 40+% you can still claim that you alone represent nearly half of the Swiss voters who all don't want to be part of Schengen.
- if they win, the side-effect of their text would mean that the Swiss government would have to cancel the Schengen treaty. Then it depends what happens next:
- Schengen treaty is cancelled; Very unlikely in my eyes as all other parties are aware of the benefits Switzerland enjoys right now and the potential repercussions. But if it happens, the SVP is the big winner.
- Schengen treaty is not cancelled: The SVP can (somehow righfully) claim that "those in Berne" don't respect a democratic vote. They, who set up misleading strategies to trick voters into electing stuff they don't understand can stand up and resent themselves as the true democratic power in this country. A fairly likely scenario.

The SVP has pulled this trick multiple times over the last years and again and again was the legal system outsmarted - there are authorities in place that have the duty to make sure that referendums are clear, transparent and for example do not break any international laws (like the "criminal foreigner" vote did...). They should reject the proposed text and tell the SVP that if they want to quit Schengen they should come up with a honest and direct text on topic instead of a smoke-screen that taps into some vague xenophobic fears again.
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Old 19.10.2011, 09:03
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

I always thought (and am too lazy/busy to check an EU website or even wikipedia) Schengen was for freedom of movement, and has nothing to do with right of residence? So loads of 'foreigners' could not just come and legally settle here.

BTW saw in 20 minutes this morning that 2 Kosovars are taking the SVP to court over a SVP ad used in their "Gegen Masseneinwanderung" campaign ("Kosovaren schlitzen Schweizer auf!", roughly "Kosovos slashing/slitting Swiss people's throats!").
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Old 19.10.2011, 09:16
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I always thought (and am too lazy/busy to check an EU website or even wikipedia) Schengen was for freedom of movement, and has nothing to do with right of residence? So loads of 'foreigners' could not just come and legally settle here.

BTW saw in 20 minutes this morning that 2 Kosovars are taking the SVP to court over a SVP ad used in their "Gegen Masseneinwanderung" campaign ("Kosovaren schlitzen Schweizer auf!", roughly "Kosovos slashing/slitting Swiss people's throats!").
A) Well, AFAIK does the often called "freedom of movement" spell out as "Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States". Source.

B) While I can fully understand the two Kosovars and really agree with them to the fullest: How about you wait till the elections and bring the SVP to court then? Right now all they got was some free PR for the SVP - and 20 minutes being once again the incompetent press organ: They write an entire article on the two guys full of valid points. Yes, a good journalist obviously lets both sides have a say. But you don't let one make some unbalanced statement at the end of the article and leave it uncommented... So what was the result? The critizised SVP campaign is once more pictured on the 20min.ch pretty prominently and for free. Everyone who reads the article will basically remember the last sentence saying "Foreigners are far over average in the crime statistic". Well done. If I wouldn't know that they are usually incompetent, I'd assume the paper was biased.
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:08
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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A) Well, AFAIK does the often called "freedom of movement" spell out as "Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States". Source.
Schengen and "freedom of movement" are two different matters . The Schengen treaty abolished the border controls between countries that are part of the Schengen area and established a common external border. Switzerland joined Schengen in 2004. So if you cross the border between Switzerland and Germany today, you will no longer be checked.

"freedom of movement" , as you wrote above, gives you the right to establish residence and work in an other member state or associated country such as Switzerland.

the "freedom of movement" is part of the bilateral agreements concluded between the EU and Switzerland and entered into force in 2002. The introduction of free movement has given rise to a considerable influx of foreign workers, which wasn't preticted by most experts at the time. The Swiss population has grown by about a million people since EU Citizens are entitled to establish residence in Switzerland. Most economist argue that Switzerland has benefited from this influx but it's a matter of hot debate.
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:21
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

One could argue that Swiss government was a little naive to have signed such a bilateral employment agreement with the EEC especially as they were not under pressure to from the EEC.

It probably seemed a good idea at the time when the economy was booming artificially but they will probably regret it and would not be surprised if they change this bilateral agreement.
We will probably see USA and countries in the EEC also trying to change the rules (possibly pulling out of the EEC) as Free Trade doesn't really exist and never will whether goods or people.
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:23
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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The introduction of free movement has given rise to a considerable influx of foreign workers, which wasn't preticted by most experts at the time. The Swiss population has grown by about a million people since EU Citizens are entitled to establish residence in Switzerland. Most economist argue that Switzerland has benefited from this influx but it's a matter of hot debate.
I think you are jumping to conclusions here. Most people don't come to Switzerland because of some treaty - they come here because they are offered a job. If the Swiss economy didn't do so well during the last two decades there would not be an influx.
Foreign workers do not dump Swiss salaries (there was an interesting special on "the Germans in Zurich" in Tagesanzeiger before showing how much MORE we earned...) and given the low unemployment is all the "they are taking our jobs" shouting complete rubbish.

And just for the record: There surely was a referendum on the freedom of movement. Not just once as the SVP tried again and again to find a majority for their position.
- The Swiss voters said yes to the idea in 2000 (67,2% yes votes)
- The Swiss voters extended it to the "new EU countries" in 2005
- The Swiss voters extended it to Bulgaria and Romania in 2009

http://www.europa.admin.ch/themen/00...519/index.html

But hey, I am sure as soon as the SVP once wins, they'll ignore the first three votes and don't see a need for future referendums either anymore
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Old 19.10.2011, 12:25
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I think you are jumping to conclusions here. Most people don't come to Switzerland because of some treaty - they come here because they are offered a job. If the Swiss economy didn't do so well during the last two decades there would not be an influx.
Foreign workers do not dump Swiss salaries (there was an interesting special on "the Germans in Zurich" in Tagesanzeiger before showing how much MORE we earned...) and given the low unemployment is all the "they are taking our jobs" shouting complete rubbish.

And just for the record: There surely was a referendum on the freedom of movement. Not just once as the SVP tried again and again to find a majority for their position.
- The Swiss voters said yes to the idea in 2000 (67,2% yes votes)
- The Swiss voters extended it to the "new EU countries" in 2005
- The Swiss voters extended it to Bulgaria and Romania in 2009

http://www.europa.admin.ch/themen/00...519/index.html

But hey, I am sure as soon as the SVP once wins, they'll ignore the first three votes and don't see a need for future referendums either anymore
I don't think I'm jumping to any conclusions. The population statistics show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons. A lot of foreigen companies haved moved their offices to Switzerland since 2002 as they can now benefit from the huge EU-labour market and the low taxes at the same time. This resulted in a considerable rise of the demand for labour in Switzerland.

I didn't say in my post before that the free movement of persones is necessarily a bad thing. It has helped to galvanize a stagnant economy and to stabilize our welfare institutions. But it also put a considerable strain on our infrastructure. And I'm also not sure if a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year is really sustainable for such a small country in the long run.

Obviously the Swiss people accepted the introduction of the free movement of persons. They didn't really have choice. All the bilateral agreements are connected. If Switzerland had rejected the principle of free movement of persons, the EU could have canceled under the so-called guillotine-clause the entire body of treaties between the EU and Switzerland, leaving the Swiss economy in huge mess.
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Old 19.10.2011, 13:04
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I don't think I'm jumping to any conclusions. The population statistics show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons. A lot of foreigen companies haved moved their offices to Switzerland since 2002 as they can now benefit from the huge EU-labour market and the low taxes at the same time. This resulted in a considerable rise of the demand for labour in Switzerland.

I didn't say in my post before that the free movement of persones is necessarily a bad thing. It has helped to galvanize a stagnant economy and to stabilize our welfare institutions. But it also put a considerable strain on our infrastructure. And I'm also not sure if a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year is really sustainable for such a small country in the long run.

Obviously the Swiss people accepted the introduction of the free movement of persons. They didn't really have choice. All the bilateral agreements are connected. If Switzerland had rejected the principle of free movement of persons, the EU could have canceled under the so-called guillotine-clause the entire body of treaties between the EU and Switzerland, leaving the Swiss economy in huge mess.

About "The population statistics show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons." Do you have a link to these statistics?

I do not find any statistics that show "show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons"

To me it looks like the yearly increase has been pretty steady for the last 30 years, see link

Also where do you get the figure "a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year", around 50,000 is more realistic, also see link
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...key/01/01.html
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Old 19.10.2011, 13:18
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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About "The population statistics show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons." Do you have a link to these statistics?

I do not find any statistics that show "show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons"

To me it looks like the yearly increase has been pretty steady for the last 30 years, see link

Also where do you get the figure "a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year", around 50,000 is more realistic, also see link
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...key/01/01.html
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Old 19.10.2011, 14:31
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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About "The population statistics show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons." Do you have a link to these statistics?

I do not find any statistics that show "show a sharp increase in net immigration since the introduction of the free movement of persons"

To me it looks like the yearly increase has been pretty steady for the last 30 years, see link

Also where do you get the figure "a net immigration of 50'000 to 100'000 people every year", around 50,000 is more realistic, also see link
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...key/01/01.html

I was refering in my post to net immigration as whole, not just from the EU. In 2008 net immigration was more than 100'000.

Source: see excel file: Wanderung der ständigen Wohnbevölkerung: http://http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/p...k/data/01.html

But maybe I was wrong to blame the free movement of persons: the stats also show that Switzerland experienced similiar waves of immigration in the sixties and early 90's when foreigners still needed a residence permit in order to work in Switzerland. Probably a certain unease stems from the fact that Switzerland has partly lost its means to control immigration as EU-citizens have now the right to settle in Switzerland.
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Old 19.10.2011, 15:23
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Switzerland has partly lost its means to control immigration as EU-citizens have now the right to settle in Switzerland.
Only when they are offered a job, and if you were around EF for a longer time, judging by the number of people looking for a job in this country you could have noticed it is not an easy thing to get.
So maybe those evil companies should stop hiring horrible foreigners and then do Switzerland a favour and get the h*** out of this country.
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Old 19.10.2011, 15:29
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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I was refering in my post to net immigration as whole, not just from the EU. In 2008 net immigration was more than 100'000.

Source: see excel file: Wanderung der ständigen Wohnbevölkerung: http://http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/p...k/data/01.html

But maybe I was wrong to blame the free movement of persons: the stats also show that Switzerland experienced similiar waves of immigration in the sixties and early 90's when foreigners still needed a residence permit in order to work in Switzerland. Probably a certain unease stems from the fact that Switzerland has partly lost its means to control immigration as EU-citizens have now the right to settle in Switzerland.
Sorry, your link does not work for me. I would like to see this because according to the Bundesamt the total number of foreigners increases around 50,000 per year

According to the graph from the Bundesamt (attached) I do not see any sudden increased waves of immigration since 1980.

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Old 19.10.2011, 15:38
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

Funny considering I was just reading an article from The Local (don't shoot me ) about Swiss Railways being totally understaffed and essentially bribing their employees to help find workers....and they're even recruiting from abroad.

Maybe we can blame immigrants / expats for overloading the railway system thus making it necessary to find extra workers. BAH!
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Old 19.10.2011, 15:48
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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According to the article "At the end of August 31, 2011, foreigners living in Switzerland numbered 1.751 million, making up 22.3 percent of the country's 7.9 million-strong population."

So assuming unemployment is around 3% if they send the foreigners home who make up 22% of the population then 19% (20%-3%) of the jobs will be vacant with no possibility to fill them.

Wonder how this country can function with around 1 in 5 jobs vacant & no possibility to fill them? Put this on the daft ideas stack!
Daft comments stack more likely. Not a single party (even the far right Swiss Democrats) wants to send all foreigners home, not sure where you got that from. It's about limiting further growth, not sure what you want to say with your calculations.
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Old 19.10.2011, 15:48
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Re: SVP claims support for anti-migrant vote

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Maybe we can blame immigrants / expats for overloading the railway system thus making it necessary to find extra workers. BAH!
No you cannot as foreigners all drive SUVs. And increase the rents. And at the same time offer to work for dumping salaries. There would not be any global warming either without them.

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