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Old 19.10.2011, 11:00
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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That's exactly my point! This stagnant economical and governmental apparatus failed to see the issue (once again)...and at the pace they tend to build things here, I can only imagine, that things will get drastically worse.
So the article blames the expat bankers and the bankers themselves blame the government?

No real difference to the broader economic crisis then?
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  #22  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:05
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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..well, but in that case, once again, Switzerland didn't react fast enough and completely failed to see the issue coming a long time ago. I mean, it's not like expats just started coming yesterday.
Same could be argued about the UK and Germany and most countries in Northern Europe.
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  #23  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:06
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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So the article blames the expat bankers and the bankers themselves blame the government?

No real difference to the broader economic crisis then?
Well, it's not the expat's fault that there is a complete lack of living space IMO...
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:07
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Same could be argued about the UK and Germany and most countries in Northern Europe.
No it can't since Switzerland relies more on expats that those aforementioned countries.
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:12
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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The problem is, that it wouldn't really be an issue if they would adopt a forward thinking strategy.
you know how I like vocabulary issues. Here is one. Your jargonic phrase would be in everyday French and German: fuite en avant, Flucht nach vorne (= escape forward). Exact same politic/economic action, totally different value perspective. Applied to Geneva, it means the following in my oppinion:

Growth is seen as a value in itself by financial liberals like you in order to define wealth and profit. The more agrar version of that value would be stability, or with the modern jargon: sustainability. What is just stagnation and wasted opportunities for some is reasonned macrosocial management for others. Those two irreconcilable views clash in Geneva. With the political system on the top of it, no wonder it's boiling.



I am not the one to say who is right or wrong, but either part of that equation should not dismiss the conterpart even if it is impossible for a financial liberal to imagine that stagnation might have virtues or for an agrar consensual communatarist that growth does not always equal lost paradise.
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Last edited by Faltrad; 19.10.2011 at 11:16. Reason: quote restored
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  #26  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:13
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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No it can't since Switzerland relies more on expats that those aforementioned countries.
One could argue that at least 50% of the Expats working in Switzerland are not actually acquired.

I think Swiss employers may realise this in the coming months with the economic slow down to continue and some of us will get our notice.
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:18
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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The reality is that for those Swiss not involved in the financial sector, but doing everyday 'average' jobs, the article is completely true...
As indeed it is for expats and other foreigners not working in the banking sector.
Or the Pharma industry.

*waves* from big pharma.
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  #28  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:21
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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They drive SUVs, live in posh neighborshoods, send their kids to private schools, Have their own customs and only speak English.
I feel so integrated right now, none of the above represent me, so Im a local

/sarcasm
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  #29  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:28
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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you know how I like vocabulary issues. Here is one. Your jargonic phrase would be in everyday French and German: fuite en avant, Flucht nach vorne (= escape forward). Exact same politic/economic action, totally different value perspective. Applied to Geneva, it means the following in my oppinion:

Growth is seen as a value in itself by financial liberals like you in order to define wealth and profit. The more agrar version of that value would be stability, or with the modern jargon: sustainability. What is just stagnation and wasted opportunities for some is reasonned macrosocial management for others. Those two irreconcilable views clash in Geneva. With the political system on the top of it, no wonder it's boiling.



I am not the one to say who is right or wrong, but either part of that equation should not dismiss the conterpart even if it is impossible for a financial liberal to imagine that stagnation might have virtues or for an agrar consensual communatarist that growth does not always equal lost paradise.
Well, let's say I would be Switzerland....as a matter of fact, let's call it LIBland....well, LIBland would realize, that it cannot produce enough skilled workers to be at the top of multinational companies, do research, conduct a meaningful meeting amongst executives...therefore, it would need a unusual high number of skilled foreign workers. Since populations as well as the demand for expats are known to increase steadily, I would make sure to build enough suitable living space...and I would do that in advance before creating an artificial bottle neck. Now, I would even go a step further...I'd build a highway just for expats (I'd call it the X-way), provide a complimentary shuttle service to and from the airport..I'd make sure that these skilled workers feel as comfortable as possible...and NOT provide hurdles and awkward petty rules that makes them feel like they're in the 70s soviet era.
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  #30  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:30
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Well, it's not the expat's fault that there is a complete lack of living space IMO...
It's not their fault? It's not their fault. Think about it. I thought these people were supposed to be leaders and innovators. Excuses are not supposed to be part of their vocabulary. Are we supposed to boo-hoo feel sorry for them or something? Banks are telling the government what to do left right and centre and holding the economy to ransom, but they failed to tell the government to provide more Lebensraum for bankers and now its al the government's fault. The poor boohoo innocent bankers.
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  #31  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:36
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

The goal is not to get to an agreement, so let's just talk just for pleasure.

Your logic is perfect. But it's LIBland logic. I obviously was right to state earlier that LIBlanders can't even imagine another logic, the one I called agrar communautarism for argument's sake. Nothing wrong with that, but Geneva couldn't care less about LIBland, they care about Geneva. In a political system where they don't even agree on what the goal should be, don't expect one particular view to take the lead. Contradiction is normal in politics, and far less unnormal in economics than the economists tell us.

Geneva's contradictions : they can't do without foreigners, they don't want to either, but they don't know how to do with foreigners as it stands today. No doubt you know better, Lost.

EDIT: By the way, those who remember Soviet in the 70ies strongly disagree with you on your comparaison. Very strongly.
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  #32  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:40
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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The goal is not to get to an agreement, so let's just talk just for pleasure.
If I wouldn't know better, I'd think you're trying to hit on me.

Will give a proper response to your post after/during lunch.
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  #33  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:41
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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That's quite funny actually - we bought our house from the most xenophobic old witch you have ever met - she hated us. But she'd had the house on the market for over a year and in the end after turning us down 3 times her estate agent said that she better take our offer or he was going to resign as her agent! So she did, spitting blood the whole process. She also owns 2 other houses in the road. Last year she moved into the house that is at the bottom of our garden! Ta-da!!
Sounds like a Dream Landlord Now she can have FULL control of what you do in the house and if you do not flash the toilet after 10.00pm. Better to be around
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  #34  
Old 19.10.2011, 11:41
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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I always assumed it was the SWISS who owned the properties and decided, and hence put up, the rents. Silly me.
I think adrianlondon summed it up beautifully. The rents are determined by greedy landlords who want to milk the MNCs for all they are worth, when they want to find housing for their top guys.

That naturally pushes up the rents around the area and the allegation about SUVs are simply ridiculous - as if a Swiss doesnt drive an SUV.

My thoughts? what a crock of generalised shite.
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Old 19.10.2011, 11:56
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

I saw that program, watched it with Mrs. Mud.

They focused on two 'locals' who were distraught that they couldn't find lodging that was affordable. One was a Securitas guy in Geneva who couldn't find a place for his family (wife and 3 kids) in town and so moved to France. The other was a ~20 year old girl who had done an apprenticeship as a florist and had to live with her parents.

Bogus.

I know several people in Geneva (yeah expats) who have rockin' apartments and pay significantly less than the Geneva average for housing. Sorry Securitas guy, if you want a garden and fireplace and all that you should have gone down a different career path, or live up in the Jura somewhere.

The florist girl lived somewhere in a village in La Cote; I think her salary was something like 3000. Again, sorry sis, if you want to buy a house like your parents without a slightly more ambitious career, you'll just have to live with them for 20 years while you save up. I know single parents in GoldPlated Nyon who manage to pay rent and raise their offspring on roughly that much money.

They showed the sort of sectioned off Expat Havens (honestly I didn't even know they existed); one of the dreaded soccer moms took the time to speak extensively with the reporters. She had been here for a couple years and had been taking French classes since arriving- she did most of the interview in French- and made it clear that she absolutely wanted to integrate and be part of the community. As someone who went through the struggle of learning French I was very impressed with her level; it's not easy at all to become conversant in even a couple of years without being in an environment where it must be spoken daily- I mean like a workplace, not the Migros. She had to know that she was making a million mistakes and still plowed on bravely. Kudos. Then the reporter asked, "do you know what the people in the village call the women in this area? The Desperate Housewives!"

Har har.

As was said, the fancy houses are built by Swiss to make money on the highly paid expats who come here. So far I haven't met any Yank or English or Finnish or whatever Securitas guys or florists in my town.
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  #36  
Old 19.10.2011, 12:04
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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I think adrianlondon summed it up beautifully. The rents are determined by greedy landlords who want to milk the MNCs for all they are worth.
The law of supply and demand are quite crual indeed. Ironically, it is the exact same economical law that made it possible to live a rich expat life in colonies in Empire times. Or is that radical change in history due to the fact that expats in Geneva do not move over with their army ? Economy is such a complicated subject, I feel overwhelmed...
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Old 19.10.2011, 12:18
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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The law of supply and demand are quite crual indeed. Ironically, it is the exact same economical law that made it possible to live a rich expat life in colonies in Empire times. Or is that radical change in history due to the fact that expats in Geneva do not move over with their army ? Economy is such a complicated subject, I feel overwhelmed...
I dont profess to know alot about economics. On the contrary.

But its common sense, together with the fact that its not possible to live in any big cities if your wages dont cut it. This piece of news is simply poorly researched, biased and reeks of sour grapes. Majority of us are normal, hardworking expats who dont live in big houses, drive SUVs, shop in Globus regularly. They shop like the locals and some even go over the border to save a franc of two whenever possible.

And absolutely nothing wrong at all holding on to our own culture. Doesnt mean we live in Switzerland, means we have to stop celebrating our own national holidays / festivals (thanksgiving, Chinese New Year etc) in our adopted home - and totally ignore 1st of August!
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Old 19.10.2011, 12:23
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

I don't own a car here, let alone an SUV so must get some brownie points for that.

I've paid my Billag since day 1 and yet spent a grand total of perhaps 5 hours in 3 years watching Swiss channels - so I've contributed a four figure franc sum to local culture.

Furthermore the SVP's electorate will be delighted to learn that we eat a whole lot of meat thus contributing greatly to their lifestyles via the income the farmers receive from the tariff on beef etc.

I am however deeply guilty of speaking English. In a country with four different official languages plus numerous local idiosyncratic dialects I'd have thought a little anglais was forgivable. It takes time to build the throat muscles and saliva glands necessary for the correct pronunciation of Swiss German words.
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Old 19.10.2011, 12:27
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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So far I haven't met any Yank or English or Finnish or whatever Securitas guys or florists in my town.
You're hanging out in the wrong places. I could introduce you to all of those in Zürich.

But maybe the article is right in so far as these people all speak the local language passably well and don't loudmouth as much as the SUV brigade. Maybe that's why locals also accept them.
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Old 19.10.2011, 14:11
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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No it can't since Switzerland relies more on expats that those aforementioned countries.
Not if you compare likes with likes. How many international companies based in the UK relocate large numbers of expats to Burnley or South Tees or Bradford or Preston? They are all trying to squeeze into the London market. And as the high prices of houses in London show, supply has been allowed to woefully trail demand.
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