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19.10.2011, 17:41
|  | Moddy Wellies | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Yorkshire
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Fair point Odile but this is not just happening in Switzerland per se. It has already happened to many other big cities around the world. Globalisation leads to influx of immigrants and all that - demand for extra housing when there is no space pushes the prices up. So yes, sorry - tough. You chose to be a teacher, nurse or florist - fine. No one is questioning your choice to do what you want. But dont whinge when you are pushed out by people with higher earning power because they are doing jobs which are in more demand and considered much more "skilled". | | | | | And at least they're living there. People in some places are being pushed out of their localities by people buying second homes and contributng nothing to the area.
The Welsh were burning down holiday homes years ago.
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19.10.2011, 17:45
| | Re: semi light Xenophobia
Summerterrain I can assure you this IS happening in some parts of Switzerland. As you might know I am Swiss, now back here after 40+ years in the UK. I know many many young people who have had to leave Geneva, teachers, nurses, policemen, shop workers, dental assistants, etc, who have had to give up their job and move to other parts of Switzerland as they just could not a/ find a larger flat to accommodate their new family b/ or if they did find one, just could not afford it. Only choice left, to move to Fribourg or Valais area, or Neuchatel/Vallorbe and commute, or find a new job. I am not making it up I can assure you. And they were NOT happy about it.. at all, as they were born and bred in GE and wanted to stay there.
Carlos, totally agree that many ex-pats are NOT taking the jobs of Swiss people in some trades and specialities where Switzerland was slow in developing the right skills. Not necessarily the fault of those kids who were pushed by the system into the 'wrong' direction though, but still.
BTW, I live in the luxury watch making area- and there is a huge shortage of properly skilled watch makers here. The worst thing they did in my native village was to close the Ecole d'Horlogerie when there was a blip in the watch making industry due to the new Japanese quartz technology. Crystal balls and all that.
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19.10.2011, 17:51
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Zürich
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Any Swiss wishing to apply, step up to the plate if you think you are hard enough. But don't moan that we took your job, because it was never yours to have. | | | | | Quite agree, don't get me wrong. But the argument isn't that foreigners are stealing Swiss jobs, it is that Swiss should have preferential treatment in job application, and only if no Swiss qualifies for the job (no matter if he/she is the best candidate or not) should a foreigner be employed.
Again, playing the devil's advocate but that's the position.
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19.10.2011, 18:01
| | Re: semi light Xenophobia
Which was exactly the position for me when I went to work in London in 1970. My future employer had to apply for my work permit, clearly stating why they had to 'import' me to work for them, rather than employ a UK worker. (They needed a native French speaker with the right qualifications and a very good level of German).
At least you don't have to swear your allegiance to the Queen and her successors if and when you want to apply for Swiss nationality (as I had to)- not sure I'd do it now! | 
19.10.2011, 18:04
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Roundn'about Basel
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Quite agree, don't get me wrong. But the argument isn't that foreigners are stealing Swiss jobs, it is that Swiss should have preferential treatment in job application, and only if no Swiss qualifies for the job (no matter if he/she is the best candidate or not) should a foreigner be employed.
Again, playing the devil's advocate but that's the position. | | | | | Say what?!
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't see/know this, but which employer would accept a poor second choice (should that be the case)? Eitherway it is splitting hairs and the outcome is the same, as no self-respecting Swissie would ever admit that a foreigner might have, afterall, been the better candidate.
By the way, are these the same folk who complain that foreigners are coming to CH and lowering salary rates (aka the Germans)?
Talk about having your cake and eating it | The following 2 users would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post: | | 
19.10.2011, 18:07
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: |  | | | ...in 1970. | | | | | Yes Odile, and it was the same for many folk around Europe then too, and for Russians in the UK until not so long ago (don't know if it still is). Point is the UK was enriched by your presence then just as CH is now by ours. | The following 2 users would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post: | | 
19.10.2011, 18:17
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: At home
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | By the way, are these the same folk who complain that foreigners are coming to CH and lowering salary rates (aka the Germans)? | | | | | Here is a logic exercize:
- Complaining about expats putting the prizes up in Geneva implies foreigners making more money than Swiss.
- Complaining about expats coming to CH for lower salaries than Swiss implies exactly that, lower salaries.
Either a big fail in logic OR local moaners have just discovered that all expats are not all the same. What a discovery...
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19.10.2011, 18:25
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Here is a logic exercize:
- Complaining about expats putting the prizes up in Geneva implies foreigners making more money than Swiss. | | | | | Although I agree with the point you are making, I can't resist the temptation to argue the devil's advocate on this one.
Expats putting up prices does not mean they are making more money. It's a supply and demand thing.
So if expats making little money seek to move into the cheapest appartments, some will be succesful and that means some poor locals who make a little bit more than them but who would otherwise have taken that appartment have to take the next most expensive one and so it works up the chain and so an expat with little money has made it more expensive for everyone.
Or look at food prices. farmer A grows bad potatoes and sells them cheap. farmer B makes better potatoes and sells them for an intermediate price. farmer C makes really exclusive potatoes and sells them for good money.
Now an additional poor person means additional competition for farmer A's potatoes. So Farmer A can raise the price because people will pay it. But his production volume stays the same so more people will buy farmer B's potatoes. farmer B sees demand rise and raises the price. And so it trickles up to farmer C who also raises the price.
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19.10.2011, 18:41
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Expats putting up prices does not mean they are making more money. It's a supply and demand thing. | | | | |  I so much agree with you that I even quote myself from page 2: | Quote: | |  | | | The law of supply and demand are quite crual indeed. | | | | | No doubt that the prices in Geneva are going mad. I've been visiting friends for years there. It's a very popular living environment among Swiss and others alike. Where exactly comes the growth in Geneva from? Banking only? The UN is inflating?
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19.10.2011, 18:50
| Senior Member | | Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Switzerland
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia
Hi
The problem is that some newcomers accept salaries far lower than what used to be the norm. Swiss companies are to be blamed there.
Recently a French boss of a Swiss company told me that he would love to employ Swiss people, but they ask for twice as much as the French, and therefore he prefers to hire French staff. It is as simple as that.
Of course every 6 months when the new employee cannot make ends meet there the poor boss has to find someone else. Unless they live in France, which most of them do.
And productivity is very low, believe me the remaining Swiss guys are on minimum mode.
If we want bilateral agreements then we should have a strong social system like in France, with protection against unfair dismissal for example. Otherwise we should close our borders and hope for the best.
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19.10.2011, 18:52
| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: |  | | | Porsch, some did work very hard indeed, but chose to work in careers that do not make huge money- teachers, nurses, etc. A decade ago, this would have afforded them a decent flat, and the possibility of moving to a larger flat if and when they decide to have a family - only to find that the prices have exploded and they have been pushed out of their locality due to this.
Are you saying that a society can function with only bankers and big business tycoons- and that all the rest can lump it? These rises have happened extremely quickly, which is why they are causing so much upset.
This is NOT xenophobia. Xenophobia and racism = being anti foreigner for no reason, just because they are 'foreign'. Most Swiss I know who have had to move away from Geneva or Zurich due to rising prices have never been, and are not (yet) anti-foreigner at all- but they are dead against what is happening with re-location agents, etc, having direct access to all new rentals, at hugely inflated prices, totally by-passing the local population.
Problem is, if this is not acknowledged as a real problem, and addressed, these people may well be tempted to the anti-foreign propaganda of the UDC/SVP at some point. Can't you see that? | | | | | Are you saying only big business tycoons can afford to buy their own property in Switzerland? I know for a fact there are some couples who are now retired and own a separate house in the Neuchatel Canton and at least one of them had a career as a teacher
If people aren't happy with their lives they need to look at themselves and improve themselves. They can't go blaming the bankers and expats who steal their jobs AND drive up the price of property | The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
19.10.2011, 19:08
| Senior Member | | Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Switzerland
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Are you saying only big business tycoons can afford to buy their own property in Switzerland? I know for a fact there are some couples who are now retired and own a separate house in the Neuchatel Canton and at least one of them had a career as a teacher
If people aren't happy with their lives they need to look at themselves and improve themselves. They can't go blaming the bankers and expats who steal their jobs AND drive up the price of property  | | | | | Argg...well if they are retired it means they bought their house some years ago, when houses were still affordable. This is precisely the point.
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19.10.2011, 19:10
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Zürich
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: |  | | | Summerterrain I can assure you this IS happening in some parts of Switzerland. As you might know I am Swiss, now back here after 40+ years in the UK. I know many many young people who have had to leave Geneva, teachers, nurses, policemen, shop workers, dental assistants, etc, who have had to give up their job and move to other parts of Switzerland as they just could not a/ find a larger flat to accommodate their new family b/ or if they did find one, just could not afford it. Only choice left, to move to Fribourg or Valais area, or Neuchatel/Vallorbe and commute, or find a new job. I am not making it up I can assure you. And they were NOT happy about it.. at all, as they were born and bred in GE and wanted to stay there | | | | | Odile, I am not quite sure why you need to assure me since its exactly what I said in my post (excerpt below)? I am well aware of whats been happening because it has already happened to many other cities around the world - even little ole Singapore - and little ole Switzerland is just starting to feel it now?
Time to catch up, shape up (choose a well paying job that allows you to live in the city) or well - ship out to the boondocks! Want to stick to your ideals or childhood ambitions? Fine. Make a life in Fribourg. Life is full of choices - just maybe not always the ones you want. | Quote: | |  | | |
Fair point Odile but this is not just happening in Switzerland per se. It has already happened to many other big cities around the world. Globalisation leads to influx of immigrants and all that - demand for extra housing when there is no space pushes the prices up. So yes, sorry - tough. You chose to be a teacher, nurse or florist - fine. No one is questioning your choice to do what you want. But dont whinge when you are pushed out by people with higher earning power because they are doing jobs which are in more demand and considered much more "skilled".
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__________________ Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head. | 
19.10.2011, 19:11
| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | I so much agree with you that I even quote myself from page 2:
No doubt that the prices in Geneva are going mad. I've been visiting friends for years there. It's a very popular living environment among Swiss and others alike. Where exactly comes the growth in Geneva from? Banking only? The UN is inflating? | | | | |
the big rise started with the re-location of Procter and Gamble there a few years ago. Then the re-location of many banks/financial organisations for tax reasons over past couple of years.
Apologies Summerterrain, a misunderstanding, I read you as 'this is just not happening in Switzerland'.
All this is irrelevant to me personally. We are both retired and have chosen to live out in the sticks where property is still very cheap, and space a plenty (the Neuchatel Jura, having sold our UK home). Buying the same house near Geneva or Zurich - wow- that would have never been possible, not even in Neuch near the lake. The mind boggles.
When I was a child, only the very rich owned their own houses here, now it is still mostly so, due to the need to have 20% cash.
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19.10.2011, 19:12
| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Argg...well if they are retired it means they bought their house some years ago, when houses were still affordable. This is precisely the point. | | | | | Not necessarily  It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying.
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19.10.2011, 19:16
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Glattbrugg
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Here is an interesting article I found in BAZ. It talks about a show aired by TSR (some Romand TV channel) which "described" how
expats are to blame for the rapidly increasing rental costs.  http://politblog.bazonline.ch/blog/i...-lane/?lang=de
Here a quote from the article translated for you:
IMO, if Switzerland wouldn't have all them SUV driving, arrogant, only English speaking expats, then coutnry wouldn't be what it claims to represent.
What are your thoughts on this subject? | | | | | A) The article, and this is very important, points to Geneva, where the problem is not really new but now exploited by TWO rightwing-extremist parties. You have similar problems in Zug.
B) As long as economic immigration centred on the industries, Geneva was rather hit by the incoming UN-folks, but since the Anglo-expat-immigration became more dominated by the finance sector, Geneva got more of the problem. Add geography to this and you can easily see why "native Genevans" may feel to be under attack. Not least as any real Genevois who has to move east of Nyon or even north of the "Montagnes Vaudoises" feels in exile !
C) Without the Italian immigrants of the 1960ies, Switzerland still would not have a highways-network. This was no hindrance for many people voting for the Schwarzenbach-Initiative
************************************************** ************************* | Quote: | |  | | | ..well, but in that case, once again, Switzerland didn't react fast enough and completely failed to see the issue coming a long time ago. I mean, it's not like expats just started coming yesterday.
No, it wasn't.
The problem is, that it wouldn't really be an issue if they would adopt a forward thinking strategy. | | | | | Switzerland reacted fast enough, which means not at all, as no reaction was required
************************************************** ***********************
Last edited by Wollishofener; 19.10.2011 at 19:46.
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19.10.2011, 19:20
| Senior Member | | Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Switzerland
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Not necessarily It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying. | | | | | Middle-income people cannot afford to buy properties, while this is the case in England (I used to live there) and in France for example.
In the past it was also easier here in Switzerland, for instance my own parents could buy a nice house back in 1985.
Now this is not possible and people are becoming frustrated, can't you understand it?
But the expats are not to be blamed, they came because we made the wrong political choices.
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19.10.2011, 19:22
| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | Not necessarily It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying. | | | | |
Posts crossed. You certainly do have to be rich (very even) to buy a house near Geneva or Zurich- really. Up here, it is much more possible, especially if you have sold a property elsewhere to do so. Mind you, since then, the exchange rate would make this impossible even here. I know at least 2 couples from the UK who intended to buy here on retirement, but have given up this dream as exchange rates meant a loss of around 50% of pension income.
Look at the price of property in Neuchatel town/lake, and the same type of house in Lausanne, and again in Geneva or Zurich (then again up here where we live) and you'll see what I mean.
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19.10.2011, 19:24
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Zürich
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | But the expats are not to be blamed, they came because we made the wrong political choices. | | | | | Thank you. Case closed. Switzerland should have stuck to its closed-society and live in its own bubble, whilst the world moves on without them.
Can we move on now? | 
19.10.2011, 19:25
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Glattbrugg
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| | Re: semi light Xenophobia | Quote: | |  | | | I always assumed it was the SWISS who owned the properties and decided, and hence put up, the rents. Silly me. | | | | | A) "the Swiss" who own the properties tend to be part of a 3% minority
B) they did NOT "put up" the rents really but simply made out some nice contracts with some foreign companies who needed some nice lodgings and were ready to pay any price
> what is to be done in Geneva ? A job for local authorities in the Vaudois/Waadtland ! Let them encourage companies in Geneva to relocate to far less expensive VD places like Nyon, Rolles, Morges etc
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