And at least they're living there. People in some places are being pushed out of their localities by people buying second homes and contributng nothing to the area.

The Welsh were burning down holiday homes years ago.

Summerterrain I can assure you this IS happening in some parts of Switzerland. As you might know I am Swiss, now back here after 40+ years in the UK. I know many many young people who have had to leave Geneva, teachers, nurses, policemen, shop workers, dental assistants, etc, who have had to give up their job and move to other parts of Switzerland as they just could not a/ find a larger flat to accommodate their new family b/ or if they did find one, just could not afford it. Only choice left, to move to Fribourg or Valais area, or Neuchatel/Vallorbe and commute, or find a new job. I am not making it up I can assure you. And they were NOT happy about it.. at all, as they were born and bred in GE and wanted to stay there.

Carlos, totally agree that many ex-pats are NOT taking the jobs of Swiss people in some trades and specialities where Switzerland was slow in developing the right skills. Not necessarily the fault of those kids who were pushed by the system into the 'wrong' direction though, but still.

BTW, I live in the luxury watch making area- and there is a huge shortage of properly skilled watch makers here. The worst thing they did in my native village was to close the Ecole d'Horlogerie when there was a blip in the watch making industry due to the new Japanese quartz technology. Crystal balls and all that.

Quite agree, don't get me wrong. But the argument isn't that foreigners are stealing Swiss jobs, it is that Swiss should have preferential treatment in job application, and only if no Swiss qualifies for the job (no matter if he/she is the best candidate or not) should a foreigner be employed.
Again, playing the devil's advocate but that's the position.

Which was exactly the position for me when I went to work in London in 1970. My future employer had to apply for my work permit, clearly stating why they had to 'import' me to work for them, rather than employ a UK worker. (They needed a native French speaker with the right qualifications and a very good level of German).

At least you don't have to swear your allegiance to the Queen and her successors if and when you want to apply for Swiss nationality (as I had to)- not sure I'd do it now!

Say what?!

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't see/know this, but which employer would accept a poor second choice (should that be the case)? Eitherway it is splitting hairs and the outcome is the same, as no self-respecting Swissie would ever admit that a foreigner might have, afterall, been the better candidate.

By the way, are these the same folk who complain that foreigners are coming to CH and lowering salary rates (aka the Germans)?

Talk about having your cake and eating it

Yes Odile, and it was the same for many folk around Europe then too, and for Russians in the UK until not so long ago (don't know if it still is). Point is the UK was enriched by your presence then just as CH is now by ours.

Here is a logic exercize:
- Complaining about expats putting the prizes up in Geneva implies foreigners making more money than Swiss.
- Complaining about expats coming to CH for lower salaries than Swiss implies exactly that, lower salaries.

Either a big fail in logic OR local moaners have just discovered that all expats are not all the same. What a discovery...

Although I agree with the point you are making, I can't resist the temptation to argue the devil's advocate on this one.

Expats putting up prices does not mean they are making more money. It's a supply and demand thing.

So if expats making little money seek to move into the cheapest appartments, some will be succesful and that means some poor locals who make a little bit more than them but who would otherwise have taken that appartment have to take the next most expensive one and so it works up the chain and so an expat with little money has made it more expensive for everyone.

Or look at food prices. farmer A grows bad potatoes and sells them cheap. farmer B makes better potatoes and sells them for an intermediate price. farmer C makes really exclusive potatoes and sells them for good money.

Now an additional poor person means additional competition for farmer A's potatoes. So Farmer A can raise the price because people will pay it. But his production volume stays the same so more people will buy farmer B's potatoes. farmer B sees demand rise and raises the price. And so it trickles up to farmer C who also raises the price.

I so much agree with you that I even quote myself from page 2:
No doubt that the prices in Geneva are going mad. I've been visiting friends for years there. It's a very popular living environment among Swiss and others alike. Where exactly comes the growth in Geneva from? Banking only? The UN is inflating?

Hi

The problem is that some newcomers accept salaries far lower than what used to be the norm. Swiss companies are to be blamed there.

Recently a French boss of a Swiss company told me that he would love to employ Swiss people, but they ask for twice as much as the French, and therefore he prefers to hire French staff. It is as simple as that.

Of course every 6 months when the new employee cannot make ends meet there the poor boss has to find someone else. Unless they live in France, which most of them do.
And productivity is very low, believe me the remaining Swiss guys are on minimum mode.
If we want bilateral agreements then we should have a strong social system like in France, with protection against unfair dismissal for example. Otherwise we should close our borders and hope for the best.

Are you saying only big business tycoons can afford to buy their own property in Switzerland? I know for a fact there are some couples who are now retired and own a separate house in the Neuchatel Canton and at least one of them had a career as a teacher

If people aren't happy with their lives they need to look at themselves and improve themselves. They can't go blaming the bankers and expats who steal their jobs AND drive up the price of property

Argg...well if they are retired it means they bought their house some years ago, when houses were still affordable. This is precisely the point.

Odile, I am not quite sure why you need to assure me since its exactly what I said in my post (excerpt below)? I am well aware of whats been happening because it has already happened to many other cities around the world - even little ole Singapore - and little ole Switzerland is just starting to feel it now?

Time to catch up, shape up (choose a well paying job that allows you to live in the city) or well - ship out to the boondocks! Want to stick to your ideals or childhood ambitions? Fine. Make a life in Fribourg. Life is full of choices - just maybe not always the ones you want.

__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.

the big rise started with the re-location of Procter and Gamble there a few years ago. Then the re-location of many banks/financial organisations for tax reasons over past couple of years.

Apologies Summerterrain, a misunderstanding, I read you as 'this is just not happening in Switzerland'.

All this is irrelevant to me personally. We are both retired and have chosen to live out in the sticks where property is still very cheap, and space a plenty (the Neuchatel Jura, having sold our UK home). Buying the same house near Geneva or Zurich - wow- that would have never been possible, not even in Neuch near the lake. The mind boggles.
When I was a child, only the very rich owned their own houses here, now it is still mostly so, due to the need to have 20% cash.

Not necessarily It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying.

A) The article, and this is very important, points to Geneva, where the problem is not really new but now exploited by TWO rightwing-extremist parties. You have similar problems in Zug.

B) As long as economic immigration centred on the industries, Geneva was rather hit by the incoming UN-folks, but since the Anglo-expat-immigration became more dominated by the finance sector, Geneva got more of the problem. Add geography to this and you can easily see why "native Genevans" may feel to be under attack. Not least as any real Genevois who has to move east of Nyon or even north of the "Montagnes Vaudoises" feels in exile !

C) Without the Italian immigrants of the 1960ies, Switzerland still would not have a highways-network. This was no hindrance for many people voting for the Schwarzenbach-Initiative

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Switzerland reacted fast enough, which means not at all, as no reaction was required

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Middle-income people cannot afford to buy properties, while this is the case in England (I used to live there) and in France for example.

In the past it was also easier here in Switzerland, for instance my own parents could buy a nice house back in 1985.

Now this is not possible and people are becoming frustrated, can't you understand it?

But the expats are not to be blamed, they came because we made the wrong political choices.

Posts crossed. You certainly do have to be rich (very even) to buy a house near Geneva or Zurich- really. Up here, it is much more possible, especially if you have sold a property elsewhere to do so. Mind you, since then, the exchange rate would make this impossible even here. I know at least 2 couples from the UK who intended to buy here on retirement, but have given up this dream as exchange rates meant a loss of around 50% of pension income.

Look at the price of property in Neuchatel town/lake, and the same type of house in Lausanne, and again in Geneva or Zurich (then again up here where we live) and you'll see what I mean.

Thank you. Case closed. Switzerland should have stuck to its closed-society and live in its own bubble, whilst the world moves on without them.

Can we move on now?

A) "the Swiss" who own the properties tend to be part of a 3% minority

B) they did NOT "put up" the rents really but simply made out some nice contracts with some foreign companies who needed some nice lodgings and were ready to pay any price

> what is to be done in Geneva ? A job for local authorities in the Vaudois/Waadtland ! Let them encourage companies in Geneva to relocate to far less expensive VD places like Nyon, Rolles, Morges etc