Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 19.10.2011, 18:41
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy McModface
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,469
Groaned at 56 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 8,829 Times in 3,249 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Fair point Odile but this is not just happening in Switzerland per se. It has already happened to many other big cities around the world. Globalisation leads to influx of immigrants and all that - demand for extra housing when there is no space pushes the prices up. So yes, sorry - tough. You chose to be a teacher, nurse or florist - fine. No one is questioning your choice to do what you want. But dont whinge when you are pushed out by people with higher earning power because they are doing jobs which are in more demand and considered much more "skilled".
And at least they're living there. People in some places are being pushed out of their localities by people buying second homes and contributng nothing to the area.

The Welsh were burning down holiday homes years ago.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 19.10.2011, 18:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 20,845
Groaned at 434 Times in 328 Posts
Thanked 23,883 Times in 10,822 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Summerterrain I can assure you this IS happening in some parts of Switzerland. As you might know I am Swiss, now back here after 40+ years in the UK. I know many many young people who have had to leave Geneva, teachers, nurses, policemen, shop workers, dental assistants, etc, who have had to give up their job and move to other parts of Switzerland as they just could not a/ find a larger flat to accommodate their new family b/ or if they did find one, just could not afford it. Only choice left, to move to Fribourg or Valais area, or Neuchatel/Vallorbe and commute, or find a new job. I am not making it up I can assure you. And they were NOT happy about it.. at all, as they were born and bred in GE and wanted to stay there.

Carlos, totally agree that many ex-pats are NOT taking the jobs of Swiss people in some trades and specialities where Switzerland was slow in developing the right skills. Not necessarily the fault of those kids who were pushed by the system into the 'wrong' direction though, but still.

BTW, I live in the luxury watch making area- and there is a huge shortage of properly skilled watch makers here. The worst thing they did in my native village was to close the Ecole d'Horlogerie when there was a blip in the watch making industry due to the new Japanese quartz technology. Crystal balls and all that.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 19.10.2011, 18:51
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,391
Groaned at 129 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Any Swiss wishing to apply, step up to the plate if you think you are hard enough. But don't moan that we took your job, because it was never yours to have.
Quite agree, don't get me wrong. But the argument isn't that foreigners are stealing Swiss jobs, it is that Swiss should have preferential treatment in job application, and only if no Swiss qualifies for the job (no matter if he/she is the best candidate or not) should a foreigner be employed.
Again, playing the devil's advocate but that's the position.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 20,845
Groaned at 434 Times in 328 Posts
Thanked 23,883 Times in 10,822 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Which was exactly the position for me when I went to work in London in 1970. My future employer had to apply for my work permit, clearly stating why they had to 'import' me to work for them, rather than employ a UK worker. (They needed a native French speaker with the right qualifications and a very good level of German).

At least you don't have to swear your allegiance to the Queen and her successors if and when you want to apply for Swiss nationality (as I had to)- not sure I'd do it now!
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:04
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,154
Groaned at 102 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 9,771 Times in 4,116 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Quite agree, don't get me wrong. But the argument isn't that foreigners are stealing Swiss jobs, it is that Swiss should have preferential treatment in job application, and only if no Swiss qualifies for the job (no matter if he/she is the best candidate or not) should a foreigner be employed.
Again, playing the devil's advocate but that's the position.
Say what?!

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't see/know this, but which employer would accept a poor second choice (should that be the case)? Eitherway it is splitting hairs and the outcome is the same, as no self-respecting Swissie would ever admit that a foreigner might have, afterall, been the better candidate.

By the way, are these the same folk who complain that foreigners are coming to CH and lowering salary rates (aka the Germans)?

Talk about having your cake and eating it
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:07
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,154
Groaned at 102 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 9,771 Times in 4,116 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
...in 1970.
Yes Odile, and it was the same for many folk around Europe then too, and for Russians in the UK until not so long ago (don't know if it still is). Point is the UK was enriched by your presence then just as CH is now by ours.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
By the way, are these the same folk who complain that foreigners are coming to CH and lowering salary rates (aka the Germans)?
Here is a logic exercize:
- Complaining about expats putting the prizes up in Geneva implies foreigners making more money than Swiss.
- Complaining about expats coming to CH for lower salaries than Swiss implies exactly that, lower salaries.

Either a big fail in logic OR local moaners have just discovered that all expats are not all the same. What a discovery...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:25
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,141
Groaned at 175 Times in 150 Posts
Thanked 17,125 Times in 7,277 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Here is a logic exercize:
- Complaining about expats putting the prizes up in Geneva implies foreigners making more money than Swiss.
Although I agree with the point you are making, I can't resist the temptation to argue the devil's advocate on this one.

Expats putting up prices does not mean they are making more money. It's a supply and demand thing.

So if expats making little money seek to move into the cheapest appartments, some will be succesful and that means some poor locals who make a little bit more than them but who would otherwise have taken that appartment have to take the next most expensive one and so it works up the chain and so an expat with little money has made it more expensive for everyone.

Or look at food prices. farmer A grows bad potatoes and sells them cheap. farmer B makes better potatoes and sells them for an intermediate price. farmer C makes really exclusive potatoes and sells them for good money.

Now an additional poor person means additional competition for farmer A's potatoes. So Farmer A can raise the price because people will pay it. But his production volume stays the same so more people will buy farmer B's potatoes. farmer B sees demand rise and raises the price. And so it trickles up to farmer C who also raises the price.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Expats putting up prices does not mean they are making more money. It's a supply and demand thing.
I so much agree with you that I even quote myself from page 2:
Quote:
The law of supply and demand are quite crual indeed.
No doubt that the prices in Geneva are going mad. I've been visiting friends for years there. It's a very popular living environment among Swiss and others alike. Where exactly comes the growth in Geneva from? Banking only? The UN is inflating?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 299
Groaned at 67 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 219 Times in 111 Posts
UktoSwiss is considered a nuisanceUktoSwiss is considered a nuisanceUktoSwiss is considered a nuisance
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Hi

The problem is that some newcomers accept salaries far lower than what used to be the norm. Swiss companies are to be blamed there.

Recently a French boss of a Swiss company told me that he would love to employ Swiss people, but they ask for twice as much as the French, and therefore he prefers to hire French staff. It is as simple as that.

Of course every 6 months when the new employee cannot make ends meet there the poor boss has to find someone else. Unless they live in France, which most of them do.
And productivity is very low, believe me the remaining Swiss guys are on minimum mode.
If we want bilateral agreements then we should have a strong social system like in France, with protection against unfair dismissal for example. Otherwise we should close our borders and hope for the best.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 19.10.2011, 19:52
porsch1909
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Porsch, some did work very hard indeed, but chose to work in careers that do not make huge money- teachers, nurses, etc. A decade ago, this would have afforded them a decent flat, and the possibility of moving to a larger flat if and when they decide to have a family - only to find that the prices have exploded and they have been pushed out of their locality due to this.
Are you saying that a society can function with only bankers and big business tycoons- and that all the rest can lump it? These rises have happened extremely quickly, which is why they are causing so much upset.
This is NOT xenophobia. Xenophobia and racism = being anti foreigner for no reason, just because they are 'foreign'. Most Swiss I know who have had to move away from Geneva or Zurich due to rising prices have never been, and are not (yet) anti-foreigner at all- but they are dead against what is happening with re-location agents, etc, having direct access to all new rentals, at hugely inflated prices, totally by-passing the local population.

Problem is, if this is not acknowledged as a real problem, and addressed, these people may well be tempted to the anti-foreign propaganda of the UDC/SVP at some point. Can't you see that?
Are you saying only big business tycoons can afford to buy their own property in Switzerland? I know for a fact there are some couples who are now retired and own a separate house in the Neuchatel Canton and at least one of them had a career as a teacher

If people aren't happy with their lives they need to look at themselves and improve themselves. They can't go blaming the bankers and expats who steal their jobs AND drive up the price of property
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:08
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 299
Groaned at 67 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 219 Times in 111 Posts
UktoSwiss is considered a nuisanceUktoSwiss is considered a nuisanceUktoSwiss is considered a nuisance
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Are you saying only big business tycoons can afford to buy their own property in Switzerland? I know for a fact there are some couples who are now retired and own a separate house in the Neuchatel Canton and at least one of them had a career as a teacher

If people aren't happy with their lives they need to look at themselves and improve themselves. They can't go blaming the bankers and expats who steal their jobs AND drive up the price of property
Argg...well if they are retired it means they bought their house some years ago, when houses were still affordable. This is precisely the point.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:10
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Summerterrain I can assure you this IS happening in some parts of Switzerland. As you might know I am Swiss, now back here after 40+ years in the UK. I know many many young people who have had to leave Geneva, teachers, nurses, policemen, shop workers, dental assistants, etc, who have had to give up their job and move to other parts of Switzerland as they just could not a/ find a larger flat to accommodate their new family b/ or if they did find one, just could not afford it. Only choice left, to move to Fribourg or Valais area, or Neuchatel/Vallorbe and commute, or find a new job. I am not making it up I can assure you. And they were NOT happy about it.. at all, as they were born and bred in GE and wanted to stay there
Odile, I am not quite sure why you need to assure me since its exactly what I said in my post (excerpt below)? I am well aware of whats been happening because it has already happened to many other cities around the world - even little ole Singapore - and little ole Switzerland is just starting to feel it now?

Time to catch up, shape up (choose a well paying job that allows you to live in the city) or well - ship out to the boondocks! Want to stick to your ideals or childhood ambitions? Fine. Make a life in Fribourg. Life is full of choices - just maybe not always the ones you want.

Quote:
View Post


Fair point Odile but this is not just happening in Switzerland per se. It has already happened to many other big cities around the world. Globalisation leads to influx of immigrants and all that - demand for extra housing when there is no space pushes the prices up. So yes, sorry - tough. You chose to be a teacher, nurse or florist - fine. No one is questioning your choice to do what you want. But dont whinge when you are pushed out by people with higher earning power because they are doing jobs which are in more demand and considered much more "skilled".
__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 20,845
Groaned at 434 Times in 328 Posts
Thanked 23,883 Times in 10,822 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
I so much agree with you that I even quote myself from page 2:


No doubt that the prices in Geneva are going mad. I've been visiting friends for years there. It's a very popular living environment among Swiss and others alike. Where exactly comes the growth in Geneva from? Banking only? The UN is inflating?

the big rise started with the re-location of Procter and Gamble there a few years ago. Then the re-location of many banks/financial organisations for tax reasons over past couple of years.

Apologies Summerterrain, a misunderstanding, I read you as 'this is just not happening in Switzerland'.

All this is irrelevant to me personally. We are both retired and have chosen to live out in the sticks where property is still very cheap, and space a plenty (the Neuchatel Jura, having sold our UK home). Buying the same house near Geneva or Zurich - wow- that would have never been possible, not even in Neuch near the lake. The mind boggles.
When I was a child, only the very rich owned their own houses here, now it is still mostly so, due to the need to have 20% cash.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:12
porsch1909
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Argg...well if they are retired it means they bought their house some years ago, when houses were still affordable. This is precisely the point.
Not necessarily It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:16
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,026
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Here is an interesting article I found in BAZ. It talks about a show aired by TSR (some Romand TV channel) which "described" how
expats are to blame for the rapidly increasing rental costs.

http://politblog.bazonline.ch/blog/i...-lane/?lang=de

Here a quote from the article translated for you:



IMO, if Switzerland wouldn't have all them SUV driving, arrogant, only English speaking expats, then coutnry wouldn't be what it claims to represent.

What are your thoughts on this subject?
A) The article, and this is very important, points to Geneva, where the problem is not really new but now exploited by TWO rightwing-extremist parties. You have similar problems in Zug.

B) As long as economic immigration centred on the industries, Geneva was rather hit by the incoming UN-folks, but since the Anglo-expat-immigration became more dominated by the finance sector, Geneva got more of the problem. Add geography to this and you can easily see why "native Genevans" may feel to be under attack. Not least as any real Genevois who has to move east of Nyon or even north of the "Montagnes Vaudoises" feels in exile !

C) Without the Italian immigrants of the 1960ies, Switzerland still would not have a highways-network. This was no hindrance for many people voting for the Schwarzenbach-Initiative

************************************************** *************************

Quote:
View Post
..well, but in that case, once again, Switzerland didn't react fast enough and completely failed to see the issue coming a long time ago. I mean, it's not like expats just started coming yesterday.


No, it wasn't.


The problem is, that it wouldn't really be an issue if they would adopt a forward thinking strategy.
Switzerland reacted fast enough, which means not at all, as no reaction was required

************************************************** ***********************

Last edited by Wollishofener; 19.10.2011 at 20:46.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 299
Groaned at 67 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 219 Times in 111 Posts
UktoSwiss is considered a nuisanceUktoSwiss is considered a nuisanceUktoSwiss is considered a nuisance
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Not necessarily It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying.
Middle-income people cannot afford to buy properties, while this is the case in England (I used to live there) and in France for example.

In the past it was also easier here in Switzerland, for instance my own parents could buy a nice house back in 1985.

Now this is not possible and people are becoming frustrated, can't you understand it?

But the expats are not to be blamed, they came because we made the wrong political choices.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank UktoSwiss for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 20,845
Groaned at 434 Times in 328 Posts
Thanked 23,883 Times in 10,822 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
Not necessarily It's academic. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be a high flying banker to buy a property in Switzerland, which is what Odile was implying.

Posts crossed. You certainly do have to be rich (very even) to buy a house near Geneva or Zurich- really. Up here, it is much more possible, especially if you have sold a property elsewhere to do so. Mind you, since then, the exchange rate would make this impossible even here. I know at least 2 couples from the UK who intended to buy here on retirement, but have given up this dream as exchange rates meant a loss of around 50% of pension income.

Look at the price of property in Neuchatel town/lake, and the same type of house in Lausanne, and again in Geneva or Zurich (then again up here where we live) and you'll see what I mean.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:24
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
But the expats are not to be blamed, they came because we made the wrong political choices.
Thank you. Case closed. Switzerland should have stuck to its closed-society and live in its own bubble, whilst the world moves on without them.

Can we move on now?
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 19.10.2011, 20:25
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,026
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: semi light Xenophobia

Quote:
View Post
I always assumed it was the SWISS who owned the properties and decided, and hence put up, the rents. Silly me.
A) "the Swiss" who own the properties tend to be part of a 3% minority

B) they did NOT "put up" the rents really but simply made out some nice contracts with some foreign companies who needed some nice lodgings and were ready to pay any price

> what is to be done in Geneva ? A job for local authorities in the Vaudois/Waadtland ! Let them encourage companies in Geneva to relocate to far less expensive VD places like Nyon, Rolles, Morges etc
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cafe Wollishofen, xenophobia Bassiq Complaints corner 154 18.05.2011 10:50
10.000 lux of Light (light craving) Phos Family matters/health 9 16.12.2010 22:20
Xenophobia or Racism Arkin Complaints corner 6 25.03.2007 13:49
Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss nickatbasel Complaints corner 18 20.11.2006 18:56


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0