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  #101  
Old 21.10.2011, 15:28
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Whenever they decide to leave, Switzerland will do just fine.
That's the thing. It won't. Switzerland makes money via banking and dodgy tax deals. Banking is in crisis, and dodgy tax deals only work if huge multinational companies can relocate here. If the expats go, the multinationals go. So that leaves just banking. With eroding security advantages.

Yes, the Swiss will survive by smoking and eating salads, but it won't be a happy life.
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  #102  
Old 21.10.2011, 15:45
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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That always happens in Europe because Switzerland is stable and very wealthy.

Whenever they decide to leave, Switzerland will do just fine.
Depends what you mean by "just fine". Companies dont relocate here cos of the fine scenery and low taxes alone. Both Swiss and multinational firms depend heavily on it, so if the free movement of people accords with the EU are reversed, the Swiss economy will be damaged. The stability and wealth will suffer as well.

The Swiss economy has grown well in the last ten years. That growth has brought problems. IMHO a solution does not lie in hacking away at one of the pillars of that growth.
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  #103  
Old 21.10.2011, 15:48
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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I think you have it backwards. "Switzerland is leaving the rest of the world behind." They're seeing a growing problem and they're going to come up with a solution. Since Switzerland isn't into trying to be "politically correct" a lot of expats are going to have to lower their arrogant little heads. However, since Switzerland "will tackle the problem" the usual jargon will be quoted "they're xenophobic" when in reality they're just trying to keep their country in tact. The Swiss first tactic will be controlled immigration which is what they're working on now. Too many coming in, not enough going out. Next Zurich has already passed a new law about international schools, since many expats come to Switzlerand and don't bother to integrate themselves or their children. Of course, cases vary depending on how long the expat plans to stay in Switzerland. So the issue is being tackled, and eventually we may see quite a few expat packing their suitcases. To be fair it's not just expats however, Greece is having loads of turmoil and many of those out of work want to come to Switzerland for jobs. Same with Spain, Portugal etc...That always happens in Europe because Switzerland is stable and very wealthy. I do think that expats give themselves too much credit, which I see expressed on this thread. It's as if some expats think "Switzerland didn't exist before they came." Whenever they decide to leave, Switzerland will do just fine.
ProsperityJoy, can I ask whether you read your Swiss news mostly in German or mostly in English?
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  #104  
Old 21.10.2011, 15:50
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Depends what you mean by "just fine". Companies dont relocate here cos of the fine scenery and low taxes alone. Both Swiss and multinational firms depend heavily on it, so if the free movement of people accords with the EU are reversed, the Swiss economy will be damaged. The stability and wealth will suffer as well.

The Swiss economy has grown well in the last ten years. That growth has brought problems. IMHO a solution does not lie in hacking away at one of the pillars of that growth.
It's called control theory.

Having some international companies is good for taxes and income and the infrastructure (housing, schools etc) can handle it or be adapted to handle it at justifiable cost.

Too many international companies negate those advantages as prices go up and quality of life goes down due to those same resources running short.

So the government's task should be to control the attractiveness to the right level. To find the optimum cut off. If the place is too attractive it can actually be a good thing to make it less attractive. So it's not about choosing between black and white or all or nothing but finding the shade of grey that delivers the optimal compromise.
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  #105  
Old 21.10.2011, 16:06
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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It's called control theory.

Having some international companies is good for taxes and income and the infrastructure (housing, schools etc) can handle it or be adapted to handle it at justifiable cost.

Too many international companies negate those advantages as prices go up and quality of life goes down due to those same resources running short.

So the government's task should be to control the attractiveness to the right level. To find the optimum cut off. If the place is too attractive it can actually be a good thing to make it less attractive. So it's not about choosing between black and white or all or nothing but finding the shade of grey that delivers the optimal compromise.
Very true, and the devil lies in the details of applying that control theory. I dont really see any housing infrastructure being adapted in Switzerland.

The solution put forth seems to focus on only controlling the exchange of workers with the EU, which is kind of a black/white approach. Re-negotiating the free movement of people accords will take years, if the EU agrees to it at all.

Even if and when that happens, the pressure on rents will not go away until there is a recognition locally that these problems cannot be magically resolved by some right wing parties.

Right now in Geneva, all attempts to adapt the housing infrastructure are blocked. Companies have stopped relocating there and move to Vaud or Neuchatel. Are the rents going down?
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  #106  
Old 21.10.2011, 16:35
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Yes, the Swiss will survive by smoking and eating salads, but it won't be a happy life.

exactly HOW does one smoke a salad?
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  #107  
Old 21.10.2011, 17:36
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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I think you have it backwards. "To be fair it's not just expats however, Greece is having loads of turmoil and many of those out of work want to come to Switzerland for jobs. Same with Spain, Portugal etc...
I do think measures need to be taking against the housing problem but do you have any stats to back this up? Unfortunately I could only find stats up to 2009 here
Since 1995 the amount of spanish has reduced from 103K to 65K so a reduction of 38K,
the amount of Greeks has been reduced by 600 from 1995 had has only gained 700 from 2006 to 2009.
The amount of Portuguese granted has been greatly increased (70K more since 1995, 25k more since 2006)
Germans by comparison have increased by 165K since 1995!

All in all 44% of incoming residents are non-EU 27 citizens (which still have the visa restrictions), 50% are Germans. Only 6% are non-German EU citzens so I'd say the citizens of these troubled countries are a non-issue.

Anyway these normal average qualified foreigners are not the ones paying Fr 4000 for an inner city appartment. These are the highly qualified employees who will have no problem getting a work visa even if it goes to the way it was before the bilateral contracts. Fact is if Switzerland wants to solve this problem through limiting foreigners it will effectively need to close the borders and not allow any more foreigners in. The consequences of course will be companies leaving Switzerland, higher unemployment, higher tax, higher social security contributions etc..... Are the Swiss really prepared to pay the cost?
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  #108  
Old 21.10.2011, 18:26
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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That's the thing. It won't. Switzerland makes money via banking and dodgy tax deals. Banking is in crisis, and dodgy tax deals only work if huge multinational companies can relocate here. If the expats go, the multinationals go. So that leaves just banking. With eroding security advantages.

Yes, the Swiss will survive by smoking and eating salads, but it won't be a happy life.
You underestimate the Swiss intelligence. They've run this country just fine and they are flexible enough to figure out a way to get rid of the kinks, so to speak.

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ProsperityJoy, can I ask whether you read your Swiss news mostly in German or mostly in English?
No, you can't!

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I do think measures need to be taking against the housing problem but do you have any stats to back this up? Unfortunately I could only find stats up to 2009 here
Since 1995 the amount of spanish has reduced from 103K to 65K so a reduction of 38K,
the amount of Greeks has been reduced by 600 from 1995 had has only gained 700 from 2006 to 2009.
The amount of Portuguese granted has been greatly increased (70K more since 1995, 25k more since 2006)
Germans by comparison have increased by 165K since 1995!

All in all 44% of incoming residents are non-EU 27 citizens (which still have the visa restrictions), 50% are Germans. Only 6% are non-German EU citzens so I'd say the citizens of these troubled countries are a non-issue.

Anyway these normal average qualified foreigners are not the ones paying Fr 4000 for an inner city appartment. These are the highly qualified employees who will have no problem getting a work visa even if it goes to the way it was before the bilateral contracts. Fact is if Switzerland wants to solve this problem through limiting foreigners it will effectively need to close the borders and not allow any more foreigners in. The consequences of course will be companies leaving Switzerland, higher unemployment, higher tax, higher social security contributions etc..... Are the Swiss really prepared to pay the cost?
I know many of you like to make "dire predictions" concerning Switzerland and their economics, their lives etc. Yes, Switzerland is willing to pay the cost in order to protect the country. But, the point is that Switzerland won't stop foreigners from coming in, nor will they kick them out, they'll just make it "more difficult for them to stay." Switzerland is small and everybody wants to find a spot in the "richest country in the world." Switzerland just surpassed Norway in this category. As long as companies are receiving the benefits they're receiving, they aren't going anywhere.

Switzerland will and must begin restricting the number of foreigners coming into the country. They're working on this right now, as we speak. Actually, they've upped their reparations program sending immigrants back to their countries and giving them a few bucks in their pockets to help get them started back in their home countries. People forget that Switzerland existed, loooong before they came. Switzerland will exist loooong after all are gone too. No one is too "important" to be dismissed as many expats believe they are going by the EF board. Remember "it's the companies that hired you, not Switzerland. Once you're job is done you're welcome to leave and won't be missed in spite of it. Many, many more are waiting to get in, as you can tell by the many threads on EF." Regardless of the so-called "xenophobia" of Switzerland, there are scores of people wanting get into the country. That's what I love about Switzerland, they're flexible but bend just in the right way. They're not going to let their country go down the tubes, to pacify a group of people, including expats, who could care less about it as long as they get their paychecks and maintain their quality of life.
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  #109  
Old 21.10.2011, 19:07
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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That's the thing. It won't. Switzerland makes money via banking and dodgy tax deals. Banking is in crisis, and dodgy tax deals only work if huge multinational companies can relocate here. If the expats go, the multinationals go. So that leaves just banking. With eroding security advantages.

Yes, the Swiss will survive by smoking and eating salads, but it won't be a happy life.
Banking will get reduced in its relative importance over the next few years BUT "competitive tax-deals" will continue. And multinationals will be coming also in future, and will always find ways to get the employees they need.

Any leave of foreigners might be disastrous for the local cigarette producers and finally turn Switzerland (even more than already) into a cigarettes-EXporter
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  #110  
Old 21.10.2011, 19:23
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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That's quite funny actually - we bought our house from the most xenophobic old witch you have ever met - she hated us. But she'd had the house on the market for over a year and in the end after turning us down 3 times her estate agent said that she better take our offer or he was going to resign as her agent! So she did, spitting blood the whole process. She also owns 2 other houses in the road. Last year she moved into the house that is at the bottom of our garden! Ta-da!!
Here we go ,there should be enough room for everyone,just live in the road and Hwy. Dumb swiss
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  #111  
Old 22.10.2011, 00:22
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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the point is that Switzerland won't stop foreigners from coming in, nor will they kick them out, they'll just make it "more difficult for them to stay." Switzerland is small and everybody wants to find a spot in the "richest country in the world." Switzerland just surpassed Norway in this category. As long as companies are receiving the benefits they're receiving, they aren't going anywhere.

Switzerland will and must begin restricting the number of foreigners coming into the country. They're working on this right now, as we speak. Actually, they've upped their reparations program sending immigrants back to their countries and giving them a few bucks in their pockets to help get them started back in their home countries. People forget that Switzerland existed, loooong before they came. Switzerland will exist loooong after all are gone too. No one is too "important" to be dismissed as many expats believe they are going by the EF board. Remember "it's the companies that hired you, not Switzerland. Once you're job is done you're welcome to leave and won't be missed in spite of it. Many, many more are waiting to get in, as you can tell by the many threads on EF." Regardless of the so-called "xenophobia" of Switzerland, there are scores of people wanting get into the country. That's what I love about Switzerland, they're flexible but bend just in the right way. They're not going to let their country go down the tubes, to pacify a group of people, including expats, who could care less about it as long as they get their paychecks and maintain their quality of life.
You start the first paragraph by saying Switzerland won't stop foreigners from coming in, nor will they kick them out, they'll just make it "more difficult for them to stay.

You start the second by saying Switzerland will and must begin restricting the number of foreigners coming into the country. They're working on this right now, as we speak.

Which is it? Are they just gonna make it more difficult to stay or are they also gonna make it harder to come?

These repatriation programmes. I've never read about this. Do you happen to have a link for this. I know they're offering money to failed asylum seekers to go home but you can't mean this as mixing the issues of asylum seekers and normal migrants would be totally stupid.

Half the foreigners which have entered this country since 1995 have had to go through the restrictions which the SVP wishes to reactivate for EU citizens anyway.

I believe the current unemployment rate is at 2.3% with a population of 7 mio that makes roughly 160k unemployed. There is currently 246k cross border workers working here.
So even if unemployment was at 0% it still wouldn't meet the demand of the market!
To say companies wouldn't leave is naive. Google this year have already been whining that they can't hire enough qualified people and have suggested they could leave. It makes sense. How can you run a business if you don't have the qualified staff? It won't only be foreigners jobs who will go with the company.

How do you propose to make it more difficult to stay? by not giving us unemployment or social security benefits? Well then we won't need to pay in to them. The wholes in those two insurances will get even bigger with 20% of the population not paying into it. Especially with the Swiss having a negative growth rate for years when you exclude naturalisations.

Do you want to do away with the C pass? Well those only staying for a short time won't care anyway and those staying longer will just get the Swiss pass. Big difference that will make
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  #112  
Old 22.10.2011, 03:08
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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You start the first paragraph by saying Switzerland won't stop foreigners from coming in, nor will they kick them out, they'll just make it "more difficult for them to stay.

You start the second by saying Switzerland will and must begin restricting the number of foreigners coming into the country. They're working on this right now, as we speak.

Which is it? Are they just gonna make it more difficult to stay or are they also gonna make it harder to come? #1

These repatriation programmes. I've never read about this. Do you happen to have a link for this. I know they're offering money to failed asylum seekers to go home but you can't mean this as mixing the issues of asylum seekers and normal migrants would be totally stupid.

Half the foreigners which have entered this country since 1995 have had to go through the restrictions which the SVP wishes to reactivate for EU citizens anyway.

I believe the current unemployment rate is at 2.3% with a population of 7 mio that makes roughly 160k unemployed. There is currently 246k cross border workers working here.
So even if unemployment was at 0% it still wouldn't meet the demand of the market!
To say companies wouldn't leave is naive. Google this year have already been whining that they can't hire enough qualified people and have suggested they could leave. It makes sense. How can you run a business if you don't have the qualified staff? It won't only be foreigners jobs who will go with the company.

How do you propose to make it more difficult to stay? by not giving us unemployment or social security benefits? Well then we won't need to pay in to them. The wholes in those two insurances will get even bigger with 20% of the population not paying into it. Especially with the Swiss having a negative growth rate for years when you exclude naturalisations.

Do you want to do away with the C pass? Well those only staying for a short time won't care anyway and those staying longer will just get the Swiss pass. Big difference that will make
Answer to #1-BOTH. They'll make it more difficult for you to stay by passing more laws which will make it unpleasant for you and then you will want to leave. Thereby, leaving room for more refined and cultured people who "really" benefit the country besides taking a paycheck every month. You and the few of your other compatriots must understand that the wealth of Switzerland is not dependant on Google and IBM....LOL Switzerland was wealthy long before they came, and if Google wants to leave they can take their few little jobs with them. You're very naive if you think Google has that much, if any power at all in Switzerland. You all predict your doom and gloom for Switzerland because you want to be seen as important, but Switzerland is voted as the richest country in the world and it's not because of you expats!...LOL.

It's not that easy getting a Swiss passport don't fool yourself. What you have to get over is that "you and your little expat friends aren't the ones holding Switzerland together." All your other writing is jibberish.

Just get off your high-horse and accept the fact that Switzerland is going to make a few changes as far as expats, foreigners and immigrants are concerned. They already started with the international schools. Are these international schools leaving because of the new restrictions? It's funny here on EF, people fight what I say then turn around it all comes out to be true!...LOL You all depend on the media too much. You need to have some vision too. If you planned on living in Switzerland for sometime, get ready for some new changes coming your way, that's all I have to say at this point. Wait and see...
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  #113  
Old 22.10.2011, 11:31
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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All your other writing is jibberish.
Oh the irony.....

Anyway I'm more than eligible for a Swiss pass if I want, which I don't

Last edited by MusicChick; 22.10.2011 at 21:13. Reason: fixed quote
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  #114  
Old 22.10.2011, 11:45
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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All your other writing is jibberish.
Oh the irony.....

Anyway I'm more than eligible for a Swiss pass if I want, which I don't
Yeah sure...anything you say. Being "eligible" and actually "receiving" something is quite different. There's lots of legislation you have to pass through to get a Swiss passport and a couple of those is your proficiency in a Swiss language and how well you've integrated into Swiss life. Anyways, if you can get it the passport is worth it if you're planning to stay in Switzerland permanently. Read here: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=31404826....a step in the right direction. Anyways good luck to you...

Last edited by MusicChick; 22.10.2011 at 21:13. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 22.10.2011, 12:09
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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There's lots of legislation you have to pass through to get a Swiss passport and a couple of those is your proficiency in a Swiss language and how well you've integrated into Swiss life.
Jo vo mir us chönne mir au uf schwiizerdütsch rede. I weiss scho was nötig isch um sich izbürgere. Bis jetzt isch e EU pass genau so guet wie e Schwiizerpass. I be do ufgwachse und ehrlech gseit ned jeder träumt vo de Schwiizerpass. Wiso söll i ca. Fr 2000 zahle für de Schwiizerpass und de no is Militär/Zivilschutz go oder 1% von min Lohn abgeh? I wär vorsichtig alli uf dem Forum im gliche Topf zschmeisse. I go au is lokale FC und verstoh mech guet mit die nachbare, also gloub mir wenn i wurde mech bewerbe wurd i de Schwiizerpass hole.


(If you want we can also talk in Swiss German. I know what is required to become Swiss. Up to now a EU pass is just as good as a Swiss pass. I've grown up here and honestly not everyone dreams of the Swiss pass. Why should I pay CHF 2000 for the Swiss pass and then have to go to military/ civil protection or pay 1% of my wages? I'd be careful of throwing everyone on the forum into the same box. I also go to my local football club and get on well with the neighbours so believe me if I applied for the Swiss pass I'd get it)

Last edited by MusicChick; 22.10.2011 at 21:15. Reason: fixed quote
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  #116  
Old 22.10.2011, 12:20
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Jo vo mir us chönne mir au uf schwiizerdütsch rede. I weiss scho was nötig isch um sich izbürgere. Bis jetzt isch e EU pass genau so guet wie e Schwiizerpass. I be do ufgwachse und ehrlech gseit ned jeder träumt vo de Schwiizerpass. Wiso söll i ca. Fr 2000 zahle für de Schwiizerpass und de no is Militär/Zivilschutz go oder 1% von min Lohn abgeh? I wär vorsichtig alli uf dem Forum im gliche Topf zschmeisse. I go au is lokale FC und verstoh mech guet mit die nachbare, also gloub mir wenn i wurde mech bewerbe wurd i de Schwiizerpass hole.


(If you want we can also talk in Swiss German. I know what is required to become Swiss. Up to now a EU pass is just as good as a Swiss pass. I've grown up here and honestly not everyone dreams of the Swiss pass. Why should I pay CHF 2000 for the Swiss pass and then have to go to military/ civil protection or pay 1% of my wages? I'd be careful of throwing everyone on the forum into the same box. I also go to my local football club and get on well with the neighbours so believe me if I applied for the Swiss pass I'd get it)
It's actually 2% of your gross anual income!

Last edited by MusicChick; 22.10.2011 at 21:16. Reason: fixed quote
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  #117  
Old 22.10.2011, 12:20
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

Now it's Prosperity Joe's turn to show us how good he speaks the national languages.

What makes Switzerland prosperous are not the foreigners, it's just foreign money. Fair enough, London's off shore paradise banking isn't rich from local money either.
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  #118  
Old 22.10.2011, 12:24
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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It's actually 2% of your gross anual income!
Crazy! I actually find it totally unfair that only Swiss men and not the women or foreigners need to pay that but anyway that's another topic. I'm just happy to save my money

Last edited by MusicChick; 22.10.2011 at 21:16. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 22.10.2011, 12:29
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

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Why should I pay CHF 2000 for the Swiss pass and then have to go to military/ civil protection or pay 1% of my wages? I'd be careful of throwing everyone on the forum into the same box. I also go to my local football club and get on well with the neighbours so believe me if I applied for the Swiss pass I'd get it)
Mine cost CHF320 (well the nationalisation did, the pass and ID were. Further CHF120)...
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Old 22.10.2011, 12:33
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Re: semi light Xenophobia

at the end of the day, all of the noise around immigration has less to do with expats and more to do with the burgeoning class warfare in Switzerland. the expat industry has existed in Switzerland for decades and is an integral component of the self-subsidized Swiss economy. the fundamental issue is that some Swiss resent the fact that some of their fellow Swiss, particularly the young and more-educated, are adopting "arrogant" attitudes toward fancy gas-guzzling cars, bigger families, home ownership and designer clothes. and nothing tweeks them more than the fact that some of their fellow Swiss are circumventing the cherished public education system - and its gymnasium weeder structure - by paying CHF 30,000 each year to send their child to one of the international schools, which of course exposes that child to even more outside influence and also ensures that the child will attend university somewhere other than Switzerland.

this same battle, by the way, rages on in at least some segment of the population in nearly every civilized country.
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