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  #141  
Old 28.10.2011, 19:48
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Sorry for offtopic but i think there are many points in this thread now to discuss.

For example talking about offshoring or displacement. Did you see the news about USA moving out of China because the minimum wage is now on 200 dollars?

Like india where 10 000 - 20 000 dollars/year is the value of a freshman in IT.

With the overhead of offshore management and ppl earning 10, 20 or 30k dollars the value of India offshore is decreasing (with lower salaries in europe).

Now the next paradise is Indonesia.

PS: And i as many, been told at 2 pm to pack thing and go out at 5 pm. This was on Qimonda, the Siemens memory group.

Globalization ......so what to do? Being one step ahead....moving or managing.
Commiserations. Its really tough. Hope you got a decent package. Thankfully you are in one of the best countries to be in , in such situations. I don't know your personal circumstances but normally you should be covered by the unemployment insurance which is fairly decent.

The new paradise(s) are Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines and also the east European countries.
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  #142  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:01
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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being relatively young, i've grown up in an environment where a 'job for life' or a 'defined benefit pension' is a mythical thing. while you could say this is a bad things since we lost out economically, it is also good since it is clear that:

1. nobody owes you a living/job
2. you can be fired at any time and 5 years in the same job/company is a pretty good run
3. if you don't like it, don't take the job
4. you have to make your own provision for contingencies and emergencies because you're not in nursery any more and nobody is going to wipe your bum for you

personally, i would quite like to be self-employed and avoid various hassles that come with employment. then again, i recognise what a fantastic deal being paid a (high) salary is especially since the only thing you have to do is show up for 50 hours a week or so.

try starting your own business and see how 'easy' it is just to earn 20% of your gross salary.
very good post this.

You have to take the good with the bad. I don't think people were complaining when plasmas, notebooks, ipods, smartphones et al became so much cheaper and accessible for them because the whole hardware manufacturing industry moved to the Far East. Of course, people were laid off in the first world then as well but since it lead to cheaper gadgets for everyone, the majority were happy with it.

A sense of entitlement will not take you anywhere in this globalized world. It didn't surprise me that kids were running off with flatscreens and such during the London riots. It seems to me that there is a growing sense of entitlement where everyone thinks they deserve a life where they have the big home, the SUV and the flatscreen and the other electronic gadgets.

I did find it ironical and hilarious that the OccupyWallStreet lot are now complaining that the homeless and other "vagrants" are going to Zuccotti Parkto get a free meal; and are freeloading off them. Link.

So now that they are excluding the approximately 6.5% with criminal records, does that make them the 92.5%, are they are going to have to change all their signs?


Bit of a rant this and I do agree that there are lots of CEO and upper management who are essentially incompetent and hardly deserve their pay. However, luck and being at the right place at the right time will always lead to such instances. It doesn't mean that the world is unfair or against you.
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  #143  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:04
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Do wonder though how many pharma and IT people stood up for the Miners and the steel workers not that long ago?
Zero. The Miners and steel workers had unions. Unfortunately, unions or not and protests or not don't get you any more than 6 CHF will get you a coffee at starbucks. It's a noble thing these OWS folks are doing, but in the end, protests don't do much. It takes money to move money and to move those with more money than you. Welcome to the playground 30+ years on and with more at stake than the monkey bars.
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  #144  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:27
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

Novartis has always blackmailed Switzerland by saying they would leave the country if the good conditions were not granted.

OK now that they leave, can we get discounts on their drugs? I bet we will still have to pay 5 X the UK price for a box of paracetamol or ibuprofen.

And ok they are still active in Basel but most employees are French or German. This is the first step to save money. Some departments are full of Indians and Chinese, I have seen it myself.

I am not racist or anything but you cannot claim to be Swiss and act differently. They should not be allowed to call themselves "Swiss pharma company" because they are half US half Indian
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  #145  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:36
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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I am not racist or anything but you cannot claim to be Swiss and act differently. They should not be allowed to call themselves "Swiss pharma company" because they are half US half Indian
Not to be contentious but....are there qualified Swiss in Switzerland who could fill those jobs filled by foreigners? The companies aren't here for the labor, but for the tax haven, we all understand that but once the currency is pricing you out of the market, the nationality of the labor isn't the important bit leading to the layoffs. Without the furriners, there's only what, 5 million Swiss? That's like only part of the Boston metro with plenty of imports, just to give you an idea of scale.
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  #146  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:46
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

UktoSwiss, are you serious about that? As far as I know so did Nokia in Finland. What about taxes? Not to mention that having a company as Novartis it is a question of prestige that many countries would wish for.
And you sure there were so many Swiss available for those jobs occupied by foreigners?
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  #147  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:49
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Not to be contentious but....are there qualified Swiss in Switzerland who could fill those jobs filled by foreigners? The companies aren't here for the labor, but for the tax haven, we all understand that but once the currency is pricing you out of the market, the nationality of the labor isn't the important bit leading to the layoffs. Without the furriners, there's only what, 5 million Swiss? That's like only part of the Boston metro with plenty of imports, just to give you an idea of scale.
And how many with the right qualification and work experience needed for those positions.
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  #148  
Old 28.10.2011, 20:53
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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UktoSwiss, are you serious about that? As far as I know so did Nokia in Finland. What about taxes? Not to mention that having a company as Novartis it is a question of prestige that many countries would wish for.
Nokia isn't the best comparison ATM as it's about to shed a big chunk of people but, yes, of the 2% of foreigners in Finland, a very high percentage of them were/are either employed directly by Nokia or contractors thereof.
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  #149  
Old 28.10.2011, 21:04
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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And how many with the right qualification and work experience needed for those positions.
Yes this is always what they say. We Swiss are stupid.
Prior to 2004 it was much more difficult for companies to hire EU staff and companies managed very well.

But this is not against foreigners, but against our right-wing (FDP and SVP) politicians who serve the interests of big firms and health insurance companies, and totally ignore the needs of families. Next elections they will be punished even more. This weekend I join SP.
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  #150  
Old 28.10.2011, 21:17
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Yes this is always what they say. We Swiss are stupid.
Prior to 2004 it was much more difficult for companies to hire EU staff and companies managed very well.

But this is not against foreigners, but against our right-wing (FDP and SVP) politicians who serve the interests of big firms and health insurance companies, and totally ignore the needs of families. Next elections they will be punished even more. This weekend I join SP.
Oh my God! Please do not understand I suggested this nonsense. The Swiss are definitely NOT stupid. (there are a lot of others disputing this adjective , I'm joking now). It is only unlikely that a small country will be always producing the demanded amount of qualified people for a certain field, especially pharma, IT etc. the same time producing the exact amount of farmers, cleaning staff, nurses etc.
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  #151  
Old 28.10.2011, 21:41
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

A French boss working in Switzerland told me that he would like to hire Swiss staff, but they are too expensive so he hires French staff. This is how we are treated!
Of course there is always some need for foreigners and everybody is welcome. But employers like Novartis who use the Swissness to sell and misbehave should be named and shamed.
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  #152  
Old 28.10.2011, 23:31
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Novartis has always blackmailed Switzerland by saying they would leave the country if the good conditions were not granted.

OK now that they leave, can we get discounts on their drugs? I bet we will still have to pay 5 X the UK price for a box of paracetamol or ibuprofen.

And ok they are still active in Basel but most employees are French or German. This is the first step to save money. Some departments are full of Indians and Chinese, I have seen it myself.

I am not racist or anything but you cannot claim to be Swiss and act differently. They should not be allowed to call themselves "Swiss pharma company" because they are half US half Indian
That's an awful thing to write! Of course Novartis can claim to be Swiss .think of all the extenal servies/jobs etc that have been created to cater for the needs of the Novartis employees! Surely these roles are being fulfilled by the Swiss. and Novartis' workforce cannot simply be Indian and Chinese! one of who
happens to be my husband! an Indian who's worked in India, Uk and now Basel..he wasn't employed becasue of his nationality but becasue of his skills!
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  #153  
Old 28.10.2011, 23:42
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

Hi All,
am going to leave this thread now..as lots has been said and realistically this is going to go on now until at least the first quarter of next year....I'm praying people are able to find a way out of the coming onslaught and that personally we are able to cope with what happens...positive thought people.....
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  #154  
Old 28.10.2011, 23:44
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

"Do wonder though how many pharma and IT people stood up for the Miners and the steel workers not that long ago?!"

Not me. I was at school It was actually quite a long time ago (in the UK at least - not sure when the Swiss coal mines shut down *cough*).

Anyway, I'm surprised IT people such as me haven't already gone the way of the coal miners. When I was at Uni, around 20 years ago (ouch!) I did a mix of Electronic Engineering and Computing. Loads of people were doing pure computing and it looked very easy. Every year people kept studing IT. The market must have been flooded.

And then people rebelled and said "IT is for geeks". Wahay! There's been a shortage ever since. However, I still thought the market would be dead after we'd all done all those fixes and upgrades for the four digit year 2000 change. And then I thought it would be over once we sorted all the banking systems when the Euro was introduced almost exactly 10 years ago. (Maybe there'll soon be work in altering the number of digits needed to store Drachma.)

And then along came outsourcing.

But here I am, being paid a comfortable, if not extremely high salary, to sit in an ergonomically designed chair, in a temperature controlled office, to surf the net, chat to colleagues and do the occasional bit of work which I actually enjoy.

How come? Don't know. I'm still surprised the work is available and we haven't all been made redundant and replaced with 20 year old genetic engineering students in the workforce.

Cool!

Life is easier than I thought it would be. Even if I lost my job tomorrow, it's been a good run. I'll still moan though. And of course have financial issues. But hey.
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  #155  
Old 28.10.2011, 23:49
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

Dear Colin,

Novartis is profitable.

http://www.englishforum.ch/newreply....te=1&p=1391206

- laying people off and relocating has everything to do with wanting more and more profit - rather than fighting against loss.

The criticism is actually less about a specific company and more about a way of thinking - more about a world driven by greed.

Regarding top pay:

Basically no-one body or person can "decide" on what is an acceptable amount for a top CEO to earn - but in a true democracy why not ask the people? I mean - really, we all know what the cost of living is here in Switzerland, we are all aware of what range of salaries allow for a hard life/comfortable life. What does one person need?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business...l?cid=30570450

"Novartis president and former CEO Daniel Vasella was the top earner, taking home SFr24.5 million."

Why not ask the general public - the people what is acceptable pay for a top CEO?



I have been out and had one too many cosmopolitans tonight so can't really give a more coherent answer than that at the moment!!
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  #156  
Old 29.10.2011, 21:07
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Dear Colin,

Novartis is profitable.

http://www.englishforum.ch/newreply....te=1&p=1391206

- laying people off and relocating has everything to do with wanting more and more profit - rather than fighting against loss.

The criticism is actually less about a specific company and more about a way of thinking - more about a world driven by greed.
If a company wants to maximize its profits that is greedy

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Regarding top pay:

Basically no-one body or person can "decide" on what is an acceptable amount for a top CEO to earn - but in a true democracy why not ask the people? I mean - really, we all know what the cost of living is here in Switzerland, we are all aware of what range of salaries allow for a hard life/comfortable life. What does one person need?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business...l?cid=30570450

"Novartis president and former CEO Daniel Vasella was the top earner, taking home SFr24.5 million."

Why not ask the general public - the people what is acceptable pay for a top CEO?
24.5 mil CHF seems to be within industry norms for pharma sector; comparing CEO salaries across industries is like comparing apples and bananas. In fact, given the high prices of meat in Switzerland, I would have expected the Novartis CEO to be given a higher pay
p.s. the current CEO's salary seems to be around 10 million; Daniel Vasella's 24.5 includes the golden handshake component; his normal salary would be less.

But anyway I like your notion of "true democracy", asking people to fix CEO salaries, would love to see it being implemented. General public, you mean the whole canton will vote, or CH or Europe or the whole world should vote?
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  #157  
Old 29.10.2011, 21:15
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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If a company wants to maximize its profits that is greedy


24.5 mil CHF seems to be within industry norms for pharma sector; comparing CEO salaries across industries is like comparing apples and bananas. In fact, given the high prices of meat in Switzerland, I would have expected the Novartis CEO to be given a higher pay
p.s. the current CEO's salary seems to be around 10 million; Daniel Vasella's 24.5 includes the golden handshake component; his normal salary would be less.

But anyway I like your notion of "true democracy", asking people to fix CEO salaries, would love to see it being implemented. General public, you mean the whole canton will vote, or CH or Europe or the whole world should vote?
Having CEOs gain more than lets say 20 times than what the the rank and file get is just plain wrong, especially if they announce massive firings at the same time. This is morally and socially unforgivable, and we will pay a heavy price for it.
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  #158  
Old 29.10.2011, 21:42
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

Bankers bonuses for failing banks who owe the State billions, footballers salaries ... not just in CH (sadly).

As Cameron says - 'never forget we are all in this together' (yeah oh yeah).

Thinking of you all who are at risk of losing or have lost their jobs- even worse when you have uprooted the family for said job. Bonne chance.
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Old 29.10.2011, 21:42
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

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Having CEOs gain more than lets say 20 times than what the the rank and file get is just plain wrong, especially if they announce massive firings at the same time. This is morally and socially unforgivable, and we will pay a heavy price for it.
What price would that be? People seem to think those protesting in the OWS vein to be stupid and few want to picket outside a CEO's home so....what price does/or will a CEO pay for soaking up that kind of salary? None. None until there is such a crisis that even the middle-class in their relative luxury feel so impinged by such an inequity that even they are moved to protest and/or riot. Wrong isn't the issue, the issue is how much will it take for those who feel it is wrong to forcibly make it right.
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Old 29.10.2011, 22:45
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Re: Novartis announces 2,000 job losses

And? How was the protestation?
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