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View Poll Results: How many seats should each party be given in the Federal council?
as current: 1 SVP, 2 SP, 2 FDP, 1 CVP, 1 BDP 9 23.68%
BDP back to SVP: 2 SVP, 2 SP, 2 FDP, 1 CVP 4 10.53%
FDP to SVP: 2 SVP, 2 SP, 1 FDP, 1 CVP 5 13.16%
5 big parties: 2 SVP, 2 SP, 1 FDP, 1 CVP, 1 Green 3 7.89%
7 big parties: 1 SVP, 1 SP, 1 FDP, 1 CVP, 1 Green, 1 GLP, 1 BDP 3 7.89%
center-left coalition: 2 SP, 1 Green, 1 GLP, 1 BDP, 1 FDP, 1 CVP 6 15.79%
center-right: 3 SVP, 2 FDP, 2 CVP 5 13.16%
some other composition 3 7.89%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 27.10.2011, 18:02
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election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

So, the federal elections are over and both SVP and Greens at each end of the political spectrum have lost a significant number of seats while the center has clearly been strengthened with the rise of the new parties - the BDP and GreenLiberals.

Some cantons will still require a second round of elections to determine who makes up the Senate (Staenderat) but the general trends are clear already now. The next most important date in the politics of this country is the 14. December however when the brand new parliament elects the new Executive (Bundesrat). Not only will they need to find a replacement for out long-term foreign minister Micheline Calmy-Rey (SP) but all the 6 other candidates will have to face re-elections and some seats don't seem as save as others.

SVP, despite having lost many seats in the recent elections are still underrepresented or demand a second seat, claiming they will attack the seats of all the other parties if their claim is denied and potentially even push for an opposition-model style of politics and quit our unique system of cooperative government (Konkordanz). BDP on the other hand are a relatively small party who mathematically dont deserve a seat in the Bundesrat but claim that continuation is important and that it is SVP's fault anyway, having kicked them out of the party 4 years ago.

But also FDP or SP can't be too sure to keep their seats. Especially FDP seem overrepresented with their two seats and some people think that one of their Bundesraete should be sacrificed to satisfy SVP's claim. And while no-one publicly questions the Social-Democrats claim for two seats, Calmy-Rey's empty seat is up for re-election last, so they could fall victim to SVP or any other party that may feel they haven't been treated accordingly.

What do you think? Who do you want to see running our country in the future? Should SVP be given their second seat, according to tradition or are they and their policies unelectable as many say?
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Old 27.10.2011, 19:10
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

I don't understand the continuous reference to UDP desserving a second seat, the PLR not desserving it, etc. on the basis of the number of seats in the Conseil National. The Conseil des États is as much important as the other chamber

As you can see, before it is rearranged in december, the UDP has 6 seats, 13% of total, PLR has twice as much, 26%, PDC has 35%, and les verts+socialistes 22%.

There's only 7 conseillers, based on that, the PLR gets 2, PDC 2, 2 the socialists and UDP gets 1 each.

Right now the current distribution of the Conseil Fédéral is unfair with PDC which should get at least 1 more member, and nice with the UDP, which should have only got 1.

Then there's of course le conseil national. The socialists desserve these two seats when considering that and adding les verts to their total. The UDP should deserve 2. And PDC and PLR should get 1 each. There's still a remaining unclear seat, but doesn't matter.

So:

  • Conseil National: PDC&PLR = 1+1, PS+PES= 2, UDC=2
  • Conseil des États: PS+PES=2, UDC = 1, PDC=2, PLR=2
And the reality:
UDC = 2, (before the burgeois), PSS = 2, PLR = 2, PDC = 1

The UDC got the max representativeness it could get derived from the conseil national, same for the PS, whilst the PLR got its max representativeness from the conseil des états.

What I observe from this is that the UDC is now exactly in the same position as the PDC. Why should they give more importance to one chamber over the other? The problem is, of course, the parti bourgeois. But that was an internal problem of the UDC and they should accept it. If anything, given that the PDC was previously underrepresented, if Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf is removed the seat should be given to them instead of the UDC.
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Old 27.10.2011, 19:22
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

Fair is PS 2, UDC 2, PDC 1, PLR 1, and G 1

Tom
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Old 27.10.2011, 19:55
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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I don't understand the continuous reference to UDP desserving a second seat, the PLR not desserving it, etc. on the basis of the number of seats in the Conseil National. The Conseil des États is as much important as the other chamber

As you can see, before it is rearranged in december, the UDP has 6 seats, 13% of total, PLR has twice as much, 26%, PDC has 35%, and les verts+socialistes 22%.

There's only 7 conseillers, based on that, the PLR gets 2, PDC 2, 2 the socialists and UDP gets 1 each.

Right now the current distribution of the Conseil Fédéral is unfair with PDC which should get at least 1 more member, and nice with the UDP, which should have only got 1.

Then there's of course le conseil national. The socialists desserve these two seats when considering that and adding les verts to their total. The UDP should deserve 2. And PDC and PLR should get 1 each. There's still a remaining unclear seat, but doesn't matter.

So:

  • Conseil National: PDC&PLR = 1+1, PS+PES= 2, UDC=2
  • Conseil des États: PS+PES=2, UDC = 1, PDC=2, PLR=2
And the reality:
UDC = 2, (before the burgeois), PSS = 2, PLR = 2, PDC = 1

The UDC got the max representativeness it could get derived from the conseil national, same for the PS, whilst the PLR got its max representativeness from the conseil des états.

What I observe from this is that the UDC is now exactly in the same position as the PDC. Why should they give more importance to one chamber over the other? The problem is, of course, the parti bourgeois. But that was an internal problem of the UDC and they should accept it. If anything, given that the PDC was previously underrepresented, if Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf is removed the seat should be given to them instead of the UDC.
I agree that not all weight should just be given on the Lower house. However, fact is that both chambers will elect the Federal council and from those 246, 80% are in the Nationalrat. Also, it could be said, that the Nationalrat is a fairer representation of the population than the Staenderat as the number of seats corresponds to the size of the canton, while the Staenderate basically over-represent the small cantons.

However, it seems that most parties argue on the base of the national voters percentage anyway, rather than the number of seats. Which is interesting because it seems the CVP will probably have a higher number of seats than FDP if you look at both chambers.
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Old 27.10.2011, 20:11
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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Fair is PS 2, UDC 2, PDC 1, PLR 1, and G 1
I pretty much agree. Always find it strange that everyone talks about the "magic formula" and that the 7 councillors have to be made up of the 4 biggest parties, 2 from the 3 biggest, one from the 4th... Where does this rule come from other than being a weird historic leftover. Why can't we take into account that there is at least 5 big, established parties... One could even argue that is is 7 since last Sunday.
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Old 27.10.2011, 21:07
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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So, the federal elections are over and both SVP and Greens at each end of the political spectrum have lost a significant number of seats while the center has clearly been strengthened with the rise of the new parties - the BDP and GreenLiberals.

Some cantons will still require a second round of elections to determine who makes up the Senate (Staenderat) but the general trends are clear already now. The next most important date in the politics of this country is the 14. December however when the brand new parliament elects the new Executive (Bundesrat). Not only will they need to find a replacement for out long-term foreign minister Micheline Calmy-Rey (SP) but all the 6 other candidates will have to face re-elections and some seats don't seem as save as others.

SVP, despite having lost many seats in the recent elections are still underrepresented or demand a second seat, claiming they will attack the seats of all the other parties if their claim is denied and potentially even push for an opposition-model style of politics and quit our unique system of cooperative government (Konkordanz). BDP on the other hand are a relatively small party who mathematically dont deserve a seat in the Bundesrat but claim that continuation is important and that it is SVP's fault anyway, having kicked them out of the party 4 years ago.

But also FDP or SP can't be too sure to keep their seats. Especially FDP seem overrepresented with their two seats and some people think that one of their Bundesraete should be sacrificed to satisfy SVP's claim. And while no-one publicly questions the Social-Democrats claim for two seats, Calmy-Rey's empty seat is up for re-election last, so they could fall victim to SVP or any other party that may feel they haven't been treated accordingly.

What do you think? Who do you want to see running our country in the future? Should SVP be given their second seat, according to tradition or are they and their policies unelectable as many say?
While I in a way like Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf, to me, a 4 to 5 % party should not be member of the Federal government. Which means, blunt and simple, that her seat, a SVP seat anyway, should go back to the SVP. To save their two seats each, both FDP and SP will have to co-operate with the SVP accordingly
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Old 27.10.2011, 21:15
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

Agree with Tom, the SVP have an absolute right for two seats. Lots of rumors about the CVP and BDP merging or at least sharing views to bolster their parliamentary presence. Another 6 weeks to go before the Bundesrat vote and lots can happen behind the scenes before then.
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Old 27.10.2011, 22:34
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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Agree with Tom, the SVP have an absolute right for two seats. Lots of rumors about the CVP and BDP merging or at least sharing views to bolster their parliamentary presence. Another 6 weeks to go before the Bundesrat vote and lots can happen behind the scenes before then.
other variants also are possible, as there are
- the BDP merging into the FDP
- the BDP and the GLP merging
- the FDP and the CVP merging
- BDP & FDP & CVP merging
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Old 28.10.2011, 00:17
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

Another way of looking at it is that there are seven seats in the federal council, so 100% / 7 = 14.3% is how much one seat is worth.

Therefore, each party (mathematically) deserves the following number of seats:
  • SVP: 26.6% = 1.86 seats (-0.86)
  • SP: 18.7% = 1.31 seats (+0.69)
  • CVP: 12.3% = 0.86 seats (+0.14)
  • FDP: 15.1% = 1.06 seats (+0.94)
  • Greens: 8.4% = 0.59 seats (-0.59)
  • BDP: 5.4% = 0.38 seats (+0.62)
  • GLP: 5.4% = 0.38 seats (-0.38)

This basically shows that SVP is most severely UNDERrepresented, missing 0.86 seats, where as FDP has got almost a full seat more than they deserve - much more so than the BDP.
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Old 28.10.2011, 00:21
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

Well, being a math guy, I voted as I previously stated.

Tom
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Old 28.10.2011, 01:55
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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While I in a way like Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf, to me, a 4 to 5 % party should not be member of the Federal government. Which means, blunt and simple, that her seat, a SVP seat anyway, should go back to the SVP. To save their two seats each, both FDP and SP will have to co-operate with the SVP accordingly
However, if that happens, FDP and SVP would together have 4 of the 7 executive seats, giving the country a clear right-wing government - which is not at all justified given the new make-up of the parliament. Somehow I dont think that would be a very clever set-up, having the government on crash-course with parliament.
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Old 28.10.2011, 08:51
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

It was the SVP's stupidity that got them into this situation in the first place. Had they not tried to railroad Blocher down everyone's throat they would have 2 SVP Bundesräte. When they threw their toys in the corner and expelled Widmer-Schlumpf from their party that was their own decision. In times like now we should be considering who is capable of doing the job and there is little enough choice where that is concerned. I want to see Widmer-Schlumpf keep her job and if that is at the expense of the SVP that is fine with me. Maybe next time they will not be as arrogant or be as quick to throw the baby out of the bathtub.
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Old 30.10.2011, 12:29
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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However, if that happens, FDP and SVP would together have 4 of the 7 executive seats, giving the country a clear right-wing government - which is not at all justified given the new make-up of the parliament. Somehow I dont think that would be a very clever set-up, having the government on crash-course with parliament.
The BDP is just as right-wing as the FDP, in spite of all the talk about the "new centre". And the CVP is definitely right-of-centre in spite of some "social" rethorics. They just in a shrewd way put the rep. of their left-wing into the Bundesrat, in order to tend their "social image". This means that there still is a 5-to-2 right-of-centre-majority in the Federal government.

************************************************** ***************************************

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It was the SVP's stupidity that got them into this situation in the first place. Had they not tried to railroad Blocher down everyone's throat they would have 2 SVP Bundesräte. When they threw their toys in the corner and expelled Widmer-Schlumpf from their party that was their own decision. In times like now we should be considering who is capable of doing the job and there is little enough choice where that is concerned. I want to see Widmer-Schlumpf keep her job and if that is at the expense of the SVP that is fine with me. Maybe next time they will not be as arrogant or be as quick to throw the baby out of the bathtub.
It most likely will NOT be at the expense of the SVP, but at the expense of the FDP. THIS is why Mr Pelli supports the idea to remove Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf from the Federal government.
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:00
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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However, if that happens, FDP and SVP would together have 4 of the 7 executive seats, giving the country a clear right-wing government - which is not at all justified given the new make-up of the parliament. Somehow I dont think that would be a very clever set-up, having the government on crash-course with parliament.
It is clear that the final result of the Ständerat elections will give the SVP only around 10% of the Senate seats.
So why give the SVP 30% of the Bundesrat seats? Listen to the voters
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:04
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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Another way of looking at it is that there are seven seats in the federal council, so 100% / 7 = 14.3% is how much one seat is worth.

Therefore, each party (mathematically) deserves the following number of seats:
  • SVP: 26.6% = 1.86 seats (-0.86)
  • SP: 18.7% = 1.31 seats (+0.69)
  • CVP: 12.3% = 0.86 seats (+0.14)
  • FDP: 15.1% = 1.06 seats (+0.94)
  • Greens: 8.4% = 0.59 seats (-0.59)
  • BDP: 5.4% = 0.38 seats (+0.62)
  • GLP: 5.4% = 0.38 seats (-0.38)
This basically shows that SVP is most severely UNDERrepresented, missing 0.86 seats, where as FDP has got almost a full seat more than they deserve - much more so than the BDP.
In most countries the power of a party is based on the number of seats of elected members; not on the number of voters.
The SVP only will have circa 10% of the Senate seats so one Bundesrat seat is about right? Alternative mathematical approach!
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:12
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

None left-of-center please
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:23
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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None left-of-center please
I am not your tailor
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:25
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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I am not your tailor
But you would be in the right ball-park if you were
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Old 23.11.2011, 00:45
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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Another way of looking at it is that there are seven seats in the federal council, so 100% / 7 = 14.3% is how much one seat is worth.

Therefore, each party (mathematically) deserves the following number of seats:
  • SVP: 26.6% = 1.86 seats (-0.86)
  • SP: 18.7% = 1.31 seats (+0.69)
  • CVP: 12.3% = 0.86 seats (+0.14)
  • FDP: 15.1% = 1.06 seats (+0.94)
  • Greens: 8.4% = 0.59 seats (-0.59)
  • BDP: 5.4% = 0.38 seats (+0.62)
  • GLP: 5.4% = 0.38 seats (-0.38)

This basically shows that SVP is most severely UNDERrepresented, missing 0.86 seats, where as FDP has got almost a full seat more than they deserve - much more so than the BDP.
THIS only is correct if only based on the National Council, but if you take the Council of the States (Ständerat) also into account, it is SVP, FDP and SP each two seats and the CVP one seat.

The number of Bundesräte of course could be raised to 11, which means plus 4 =
> splitting transportation & telecommunications
> sports & health should be taken away from Defence+Interior
> education should be taken away from the Interior
> splitting justice and police
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Old 23.11.2011, 11:32
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Re: election of the new Bundesrat - 14. Dec

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THIS only is correct if only based on the National Council, but if you take the Council of the States (Ständerat) also into account, it is SVP, FDP and SP each two seats and the CVP one seat.

The number of Bundesräte of course could be raised to 11, which means plus 4 =
> splitting transportation & telecommunications
> sports & health should be taken away from Defence+Interior
> education should be taken away from the Interior
> splitting justice and police
If you take both the Council of the States (Ständerat) & Nationalrat into account then you have SVP Nationalrat 25% seats, SVP Ständerat 10% seats so average is 17.5% - looks like 1 SVP seat to me?
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