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The Local 09.11.2011 16:58

Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Politicians, criminologists and police have called for army-issue weapons to be kept out of the hands of lawbreakers after a young man with a criminal record shot and killed his girlfriend last Friday.

Read the full article: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

jrspet 14.11.2011 15:12

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Another killing, in Neuchâtel

Swissinfo EN

Jobsrobertsharpii 14.11.2011 15:54

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Very idealistic. Making it 'illegal' for individuals with criminal records to own/get guns isn't going to stop any of the determined ones from getting guns.

Sbrinz 14.11.2011 16:44

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home. Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe, and especially with WWI tactics, the girl might be alive. The new recruit failed his 3 day entry assessment as the psychologist ruled him unsafe, but his unit still gave him the weapon. The third failure is whom gave him the ammunition? I understand Swiss Army rifle ammunition has a unique size, and cannot be obtained privately.

Jobsrobertsharpii 14.11.2011 19:16

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 1406425)
There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home.

Sure there is. "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." I'd rather be able to defend myself against a criminal invading my home, than to have to hide and pray.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 1406425)
Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe...

I'm sure they said that about the 20th century, and then we had the two biggest wars in history...one of which was started in Europe (WWII was already 'started' in the Pacific for several years, IMHO) There will be wars fought wherever there is a group of people that covet what another group of people have- land, resources, or wealth, and try to use force to take it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 1406425)
The new recruit failed his 3 day entry assessment as the psychologist ruled him unsafe, but his unit still gave him the weapon. The third failure is whom gave him the ammunition? I understand Swiss Army rifle ammunition has a unique size, and cannot be obtained privately.

This absolutely should be investigated. Somebody screwed up, and now somebody's daughter is dead. It is a horrible tragedy. The man needs to be further assessed to see if he is fit for trial, and whomsoever enabled him by issuing him a weapon & ammunition after the assessment needs to face charges also.

Lex 14.11.2011 20:27

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 1406425)
There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home.

If firearms were the only problem, then countries with strict firearms laws would be the safest places on earth. But in reality, some of them are the most dangerous where only criminals seem to have the monopoly. And by that logic also, Switzerland would have to be the most dangerous, but that isnt true either, and in fact there is a lot less gun crime here than elsewhere. Therefore the issue of no firearms means no violence is complete nonsense. The question here is how did a known unstable person come into contact with a firearm. That is whats to blame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 1406425)
Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe

Right to bear arms isnt something just against foreign armies but more importantly to keep Government in check (History is littered with evidence of where Government has gone mad i.e. Germany), something many people in society have forgotten. People do have a right to defend themselves.

Wouldnt it be interesting to see how the holocaust in Germany would have turned out had citizens been armed? Or to see how long World War 2 might have lasted? I'd stick my neck out and say that the damage would have been a lot less and a lot less people would have died. There were many Germans who were against what was going on.

I dont have firearms by the way :cool:

Guest 14.11.2011 20:57

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
This is slightly concerning...

Quote:

Estimates of the number of firearms in circulation in Switzerland range between 1.2 million and 2.3 million.
The Swiss authorities' best guess is over a million adrift. :eek:

Jobsrobertsharpii 14.11.2011 21:01

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

This is slightly concerning...



The Swiss authorities' best guess is over a million adrift. :eek:
Kinda proves my earlier point. There are enough guns floating on the grey and black markets that someone who wanted a gun could get one, law or no law.

14.11.2011 23:41

Death in Neuchatel caused by gun.
 
Here, I have some very sad news of someone killed by accident in Neuchatel, by a gun.

http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/h...tal-2011-11-14

It was a colleague of my partners, who was working the night we went and dined Saturday night in Neuchatel.

When you're next preaching about freedom of owning a gun, human rights and all that, I urge you to think of this young man of 23 years. Not only this guy, but the friend who was there who has been in hospital ever since on medication after being traumatised by seeing his friend killed, the trauma of the person who pulled the trigger, the sadness of all of his friends, and work mates. But in my opinion, the saddest part is his body being flown back to his family in Italy. How tragic, and what was it caused by....
A gun.

Shame on you who voted for that to happen.

Phil_MCR 15.11.2011 00:54

Why are you focussing on guns? We should be trying to ban cars: they are the real killers!

Wollishofener 15.11.2011 01:10

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 1406425)
There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home. Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe, and especially with WWI tactics, the girl might be alive. The new recruit failed his 3 day entry assessment as the psychologist ruled him unsafe, but his unit still gave him the weapon. The third failure is whom gave him the ammunition? I understand Swiss Army rifle ammunition has a unique size, and cannot be obtained privately.

A) Practically all cities voted AGAINST soldiers having to keep the army weapon at home, but the countryside had its day
B) While the army-psychiatrists wanted to remove him from the force, the militarists wanted him in the army and succeeded
C) He is 23 and so most likely already did the "Obligatorische". There, you can buy trial-ammunition (in addition to the stuff you have to purchase) but then not use it really .... and so you automatically have some "private" ammunition

Sbrinz 15.11.2011 02:24

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1406874)
A) Practically all cities voted AGAINST soldiers having to keep the army weapon at home, but the countryside had its day
B) While the army-psychiatrists wanted to remove him from the force, the militarists wanted him in the army and succeeded
C) He is 23 and so most likely already did the "Obligatorische". There, you can buy trial-ammunition (in addition to the stuff you have to purchase) but then not use it really .... and so you automatically have some "private" ammunition

I believe your statements Wolli, but I find this sloppy attitude to dangerous practices completely irresponsible! Especially when the Swiss punish erring motorists extremely hard.

glennsche 15.11.2011 09:41

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
http://images2.dailykos.com/images/u...mtomorrow2.jpg

all these sorts of threads need to have this picture posted.

the swiss, like the americans, like their guns, and are willing to pay the collateral damage in the form of murders and what not. Collectively, they seem to view the freedom to have them greater than the costs to the society this freedom inflicts. Indeed the CHer voted to this effect last year. The brits have drawn other conclusions.

noones going to change anyone's mind about this issue, for me i think this is one of those third rail topics. Youre never gonna change someone's mind on abortion, and youre never gonna change someone's mind on guns.

Guest 15.11.2011 10:03

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glennsche (Post 1406997)
the swiss, like the americans, like their guns, and are willing to pay the collateral damage in the form of murders and what not.

It would be interesting, though, to see a statistic that shows the amount of people murdered with guns in the US compared with Switzerland (per capita).

I think the Swiss are mainly indifferent to whether they keep a gun at home and most are duty bound to keep one because they are still in the army. Most of the Swiss I know find it a hassle and it just takes up space. My husband was overjoyed to be able to give his back (along with the shedload of army gubbins) about 5 years ago and suddenly we had space in the cellar again!

You are always going to find cases of mentally unstable people becoming "a statistic" but in my experience I think, on the whole, the attitude to gun ownership is a lot different to the US.

Phil_MCR 15.11.2011 10:03

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glennsche (Post 1406997)
noones going to change anyone's mind about this issue, for me i think this is one of those third rail topics. Youre never gonna change someone's mind on abortion, and youre never gonna change someone's mind on guns.

that's what makes arguing about it all the more fun! :msntongue:

Assassin 15.11.2011 10:04

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
The other option which no one has yet discussed is introducing non-lethal weapons like spud guns. Although they are unlikely to stop an advancing convoy of heavy tanks and artillery, their whimsical "popping" noise may well inflict joviality and childlike urges amongst their protagonists, ultimately leading to world peace and global man hugs.

This could however lead to more brutal killing with garden shears or gnomes bearing sharp edges during domestic rage and suburban violence.

glennsche 15.11.2011 10:29

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

It would be interesting, though, to see a statistic that shows the amount of people murdered with guns in the US compared with Switzerland (per capita).

I think the Swiss are mainly indifferent to whether they keep a gun at home and most are duty bound to keep one because they are still in the army. Most of the Swiss I know find it a hassle and it just takes up space. My husband was overjoyed to be able to give his back (along with the shedload of army gubbins) about 5 years ago and suddenly we had space in the cellar again!

You are always going to find cases of mentally unstable people becoming "a statistic" but in my experience I think, on the whole, the attitude to gun ownership is a lot different to the US.

im sure its vastly higher in the US, we have much more crime than exists here for any number of reasons: greater income disparity, fewer social saftey nets which keep people from feeling like they have nothing to lose, looser control (depends on the state but generally speaking) on guns in circulation and much easier access to ammunition. i think the firearm deaths in the US every year number in the 10s of thousands, although im sure a number of them are "justified" and "defense" and not technically crimes.

The US has its cultural myth of the Minute Man ready to go fight the brits, the cowboy in the old west, the rough frontiersman marksman davey crocket type, all the way to the present day belief of "an armed population can overthrow a repressive govt" thing. And, like it or not, its in the constitution, and that's fact.

The swiss have their traditions too of fighting off habsburg encroachment on their territory (although this is admittedly pre firearm) which melds well with the marksmanship and militia fostered in the 19th century when Napoleon was thrown out finally and the Swiss realized that with the growth of the Levee en Masse national conscription armies of the 19th century theyd better match em or risk not being able to maintain independence in the face of armed neighbros. one reason for the "weapons at home" tradition that ive heard (dont know if its true tho) was that in the mid 19th century before the ubiquitousness of good rail networks and autobahnen, information travelled slowly and due to the rural nature of CH at the time, it would take an awful long time for the swiss to mobilize their soldiers, get them to their depots, and ship them out, so they opted for everyone to keep their stuff at home to expedite mobilization. Makes sense to me.

That neither of these large schools of thought for the US or CH are really relevant any longer seems to me to be beside the point: theyre part of the tradition of the countries mentioned and until those myths change the weapons arent going to go anywhere.

100% 15.11.2011 10:37

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 1406864)
Why are you focussing on guns? We should be trying to ban cars: they are the real killers!

Sarcasm, right?

I would go on the theory that statistics could show an idiot with a gun is more likely to kill someone than an idiot with a car.
I say that despite the massive number of idiots driving in Switzerland.

Guest 15.11.2011 10:47

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glennsche (Post 1407060)
im sure its vastly higher in the US, we have much more crime than exists here for any number of reasons: greater income disparity, fewer social saftey nets which keep people from feeling like they have nothing to lose, looser control (depends on the state but generally speaking) on guns in circulation and much easier access to ammunition. i think the firearm deaths in the US every year number in the 10s of thousands, although im sure a number of them are "justified" and "defense" and not technically crimes.

The US has its cultural myth of the Minute Man ready to go fight the brits, the cowboy in the old west, the rough frontiersman marksman davey crocket type, all the way to the present day belief of "an armed population can overthrow a repressive govt" thing. And, like it or not, its in the constitution, and that's fact.

The swiss have their traditions too of fighting off habsburg encroachment on their territory (although this is admittedly pre firearm) which melds well with the marksmanship and militia fostered in the 19th century when Napoleon was thrown out finally and the Swiss realized that with the growth of the Levee en Masse national conscription armies of the 19th century theyd better match em or risk not being able to maintain independence in the face of armed neighbros. one reason for the "weapons at home" tradition that ive heard (dont know if its true tho) was that in the mid 19th century before the ubiquitousness of good rail networks and autobahnen, information travelled slowly and due to the rural nature of CH at the time, it would take an awful long time for the swiss to mobilize their soldiers, get them to their depots, and ship them out, so they opted for everyone to keep their stuff at home to expedite mobilization. Makes sense to me.

That neither of these large schools of thought for the US or CH are really relevant any longer seems to me to be beside the point: theyre part of the tradition of the countries mentioned and until those myths change the weapons arent going to go anywhere.

To be fair, I don't think your average Swiss guy thinks that deeply when he's shoving all his army stuff out of the way to get to his skis in the cellar.

I think another factor why they haven't moved to change the policy that all the stuff is kept at home is the logistical implications. Can you imagine the army storing all that equipment for the 11 months it's not used by an individual soldier?

It might as well be gathering dust in our cellar than taking up space in some army camp somewhere.

phdoofus 15.11.2011 10:49

Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 100% (Post 1407068)
Sarcasm, right?

I would go on the theory that statistics could show an idiot with a gun is more likely to kill someone than an idiot with a car.
I say that despite the massive number of idiots driving in Switzerland.

Statistically, you're wrong. In both the US and in Switzerland, auto related deaths per 100,000 people outnumber gun related deaths per 100,000 people by a factor of 2-3. The difference is in Switzerland, most gun related deaths are suicides whereas in the US half are suicides and half are homicides. Thus, in CH, you're more likely to get run over by a banker late for a very important meeting or someone driving while texting than you are to get shot by someone. It's cute the way you defend all things Swiss but you should at least be backing up your claims with facts.


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