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Old 09.11.2011, 16:58
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Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

Politicians, criminologists and police have called for army-issue weapons to be kept out of the hands of lawbreakers after a young man with a criminal record shot and killed his girlfriend last Friday.

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Old 14.11.2011, 15:12
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

Another killing, in Neuchâtel

Swissinfo EN
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Old 14.11.2011, 15:54
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

Very idealistic. Making it 'illegal' for individuals with criminal records to own/get guns isn't going to stop any of the determined ones from getting guns.
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Old 14.11.2011, 16:44
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home. Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe, and especially with WWI tactics, the girl might be alive. The new recruit failed his 3 day entry assessment as the psychologist ruled him unsafe, but his unit still gave him the weapon. The third failure is whom gave him the ammunition? I understand Swiss Army rifle ammunition has a unique size, and cannot be obtained privately.
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Old 14.11.2011, 19:16
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home.
Sure there is. "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." I'd rather be able to defend myself against a criminal invading my home, than to have to hide and pray.

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Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe...
I'm sure they said that about the 20th century, and then we had the two biggest wars in history...one of which was started in Europe (WWII was already 'started' in the Pacific for several years, IMHO) There will be wars fought wherever there is a group of people that covet what another group of people have- land, resources, or wealth, and try to use force to take it.

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The new recruit failed his 3 day entry assessment as the psychologist ruled him unsafe, but his unit still gave him the weapon. The third failure is whom gave him the ammunition? I understand Swiss Army rifle ammunition has a unique size, and cannot be obtained privately.
This absolutely should be investigated. Somebody screwed up, and now somebody's daughter is dead. It is a horrible tragedy. The man needs to be further assessed to see if he is fit for trial, and whomsoever enabled him by issuing him a weapon & ammunition after the assessment needs to face charges also.

Last edited by Jobsrobertsharpii; 14.11.2011 at 19:43.
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Old 24.11.2011, 10:18
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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Sure there is. "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." I'd rather be able to defend myself against a criminal invading my home, than to have to hide and pray.


I'm sure they said that about the 20th century, and then we had the two biggest wars in history...one of which was started in Europe (WWII was already 'started' in the Pacific for several years, IMHO) There will be wars fought wherever there is a group of people that covet what another group of people have- land, resources, or wealth, and try to use force to take it.



This absolutely should be investigated. Somebody screwed up, and now somebody's daughter is dead. It is a horrible tragedy. The man needs to be further assessed to see if he is fit for trial, and whomsoever enabled him by issuing him a weapon & ammunition after the assessment needs to face charges also.
Hmmm, Switzerland hasn't been invaded since 1798 and even if it was, do you think conscripts with a rifle and a hundred or so rounds each at home would do anything against an invading force, you are sadly mistaken.

Just out of interest, when was the last time you were confronted by a criminal in your home?
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Old 14.11.2011, 20:27
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home.
If firearms were the only problem, then countries with strict firearms laws would be the safest places on earth. But in reality, some of them are the most dangerous where only criminals seem to have the monopoly. And by that logic also, Switzerland would have to be the most dangerous, but that isnt true either, and in fact there is a lot less gun crime here than elsewhere. Therefore the issue of no firearms means no violence is complete nonsense. The question here is how did a known unstable person come into contact with a firearm. That is whats to blame.

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Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe
Right to bear arms isnt something just against foreign armies but more importantly to keep Government in check (History is littered with evidence of where Government has gone mad i.e. Germany), something many people in society have forgotten. People do have a right to defend themselves.

Wouldnt it be interesting to see how the holocaust in Germany would have turned out had citizens been armed? Or to see how long World War 2 might have lasted? I'd stick my neck out and say that the damage would have been a lot less and a lot less people would have died. There were many Germans who were against what was going on.

I dont have firearms by the way
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Old 14.11.2011, 20:57
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

This is slightly concerning...

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Estimates of the number of firearms in circulation in Switzerland range between 1.2 million and 2.3 million.
The Swiss authorities' best guess is over a million adrift.
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Old 15.11.2011, 13:01
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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If firearms were the only problem, then countries with strict firearms laws would be the safest places on earth. But in reality, some of them are the most dangerous where only criminals seem to have the monopoly. And by that logic also, Switzerland would have to be the most dangerous, but that isnt true either, and in fact there is a lot less gun crime here than elsewhere. Therefore the issue of no firearms means no violence is complete nonsense. The question here is how did a known unstable person come into contact with a firearm. That is whats to blame.



Right to bear arms isnt something just against foreign armies but more importantly to keep Government in check (History is littered with evidence of where Government has gone mad i.e. Germany), something many people in society have forgotten. People do have a right to defend themselves.

Wouldnt it be interesting to see how the holocaust in Germany would have turned out had citizens been armed? Or to see how long World War 2 might have lasted? I'd stick my neck out and say that the damage would have been a lot less and a lot less people would have died. There were many Germans who were against what was going on.

I dont have firearms by the way
It seems like a rather facetious remark to indicate that de-armament of a nation or society leads to an increase in gun related crime, I'd like to see your evidence for this, In the UK hand guns are banned and hand gun related crime is almost non-existent, the recent spate in the UK of rifle crime would be equally diminished if we banned all guns.

We don't have a 'right to bare arms', the Americans do, that is similar to the statement that morons who vote for UKIP spout out 'no taxation without representation', we don't have a constitution or bill of rights, America is over 2000 miles away, and the war of independence was over 200 years ago, meaningless statements referencing a system that is alien is pointless and confusing.

I think your last point about WW2 Germany is laughable to say the least; it was the Nazi death squads of the 30's that had the guns and forced the will of the party on the common man.

Based on your reasoning would it have been advisable to arm the Hutus and the tootsies, or the Bosnians? Do you think it’s a good idea to chuck them all Kalashnikovs and close the door? What a brilliant foreign policy...
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Old 15.11.2011, 01:10
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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There is no sane reason to keep weapons at home. Maybe if Switzerland moved into the 21st century and realised that wars are no longer fought inside Europe, and especially with WWI tactics, the girl might be alive. The new recruit failed his 3 day entry assessment as the psychologist ruled him unsafe, but his unit still gave him the weapon. The third failure is whom gave him the ammunition? I understand Swiss Army rifle ammunition has a unique size, and cannot be obtained privately.
A) Practically all cities voted AGAINST soldiers having to keep the army weapon at home, but the countryside had its day
B) While the army-psychiatrists wanted to remove him from the force, the militarists wanted him in the army and succeeded
C) He is 23 and so most likely already did the "Obligatorische". There, you can buy trial-ammunition (in addition to the stuff you have to purchase) but then not use it really .... and so you automatically have some "private" ammunition
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Old 15.11.2011, 02:24
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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A) Practically all cities voted AGAINST soldiers having to keep the army weapon at home, but the countryside had its day
B) While the army-psychiatrists wanted to remove him from the force, the militarists wanted him in the army and succeeded
C) He is 23 and so most likely already did the "Obligatorische". There, you can buy trial-ammunition (in addition to the stuff you have to purchase) but then not use it really .... and so you automatically have some "private" ammunition
I believe your statements Wolli, but I find this sloppy attitude to dangerous practices completely irresponsible! Especially when the Swiss punish erring motorists extremely hard.
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Old 14.11.2011, 23:41
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Death in Neuchatel caused by gun.

Here, I have some very sad news of someone killed by accident in Neuchatel, by a gun.

http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/h...tal-2011-11-14

It was a colleague of my partners, who was working the night we went and dined Saturday night in Neuchatel.

When you're next preaching about freedom of owning a gun, human rights and all that, I urge you to think of this young man of 23 years. Not only this guy, but the friend who was there who has been in hospital ever since on medication after being traumatised by seeing his friend killed, the trauma of the person who pulled the trigger, the sadness of all of his friends, and work mates. But in my opinion, the saddest part is his body being flown back to his family in Italy. How tragic, and what was it caused by....
A gun.

Shame on you who voted for that to happen.

Last edited by yasmina; 14.11.2011 at 23:48. Reason: link
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Old 15.11.2011, 11:26
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Re: Death in Neuchatel caused by gun.

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Here, I have some very sad news of someone killed by accident in Neuchatel, by a gun.

http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/h...tal-2011-11-14

It was a colleague of my partners, who was working the night we went and dined Saturday night in Neuchatel.

When you're next preaching about freedom of owning a gun, human rights and all that, I urge you to think of this young man of 23 years. Not only this guy, but the friend who was there who has been in hospital ever since on medication after being traumatised by seeing his friend killed, the trauma of the person who pulled the trigger, the sadness of all of his friends, and work mates. But in my opinion, the saddest part is his body being flown back to his family in Italy. How tragic, and what was it caused by....
A gun.

Shame on you who voted for that to happen.
First off, I'm sorry to hear about your colleagues. Something like that can only be traumatic and terrible.

This was not caused by a gun, in and of itself. It was caused by the action of a person holding the gun. This premise is comparable to saying that because someone was stabbed by a kitchen knife, it is the fault of the kitchen knife and all kitchen knives should be banned.

The majority of firearms accidents are caused by one thing- poor decision making by someone owning or using a firearm. A distant second cause is malfunction.

I'm sorry if I offend you, but I don't believe that my ability to defend myself and my family should be diminished because someone else made or may make a mistake.
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Old 15.11.2011, 11:42
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

Since every gun debate is pretty much a copy-paste of the last one I'll do one better and link the last big one here.

Swiss firearms vote
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Old 15.11.2011, 11:53
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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Since every gun debate is pretty much a copy-paste of the last one I'll do one better and link the last big one here.

Swiss firearms vote

Yeah, its pretty much like politics and abortion. Nobody's gonna change any minds, I don't think.
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Old 15.11.2011, 12:59
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Re: Death in Neuchatel caused by gun.

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Here, I have some very sad news of someone killed by accident in Neuchatel, by a gun.

http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/h...tal-2011-11-14

It was a colleague of my partners, who was working the night we went and dined Saturday night in Neuchatel.

When you're next preaching about freedom of owning a gun, human rights and all that, I urge you to think of this young man of 23 years. Not only this guy, but the friend who was there who has been in hospital ever since on medication after being traumatised by seeing his friend killed, the trauma of the person who pulled the trigger, the sadness of all of his friends, and work mates. But in my opinion, the saddest part is his body being flown back to his family in Italy. How tragic, and what was it caused by....
A gun.

Shame on you who voted for that to happen.
It is indeed tragic and I do sympathise. Guns must be handled with care and it appears that insufficient education was given to these young people about handling firearms. Ignorance can kill as easily as intention, give the guns a break from blame.
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Old 15.11.2011, 00:54
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Why are you focussing on guns? We should be trying to ban cars: they are the real killers!
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Old 15.11.2011, 10:37
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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Why are you focussing on guns? We should be trying to ban cars: they are the real killers!
Sarcasm, right?

I would go on the theory that statistics could show an idiot with a gun is more likely to kill someone than an idiot with a car.
I say that despite the massive number of idiots driving in Switzerland.
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Old 15.11.2011, 10:49
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

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Sarcasm, right?

I would go on the theory that statistics could show an idiot with a gun is more likely to kill someone than an idiot with a car.
I say that despite the massive number of idiots driving in Switzerland.
Statistically, you're wrong. In both the US and in Switzerland, auto related deaths per 100,000 people outnumber gun related deaths per 100,000 people by a factor of 2-3. The difference is in Switzerland, most gun related deaths are suicides whereas in the US half are suicides and half are homicides. Thus, in CH, you're more likely to get run over by a banker late for a very important meeting or someone driving while texting than you are to get shot by someone. It's cute the way you defend all things Swiss but you should at least be backing up your claims with facts.
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Old 15.11.2011, 12:06
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Re: Brutal killing sparks army gun debate

@phdoofus

You are so naive to suggest i back up all things Swiss. Apparently it is Swiss to own a gun and Swiss to use public transport. I do neither and endorse neither here, so you cone shove that argument where the sun doesn't shine.

Backing up with statistics. I'm not even going to bother, for my statement is clear. If you want to show me statistics that suggest otherwise, I think they are the statistics we need to see.

My point is this. Millions of people get in a car and drive it all over the place every day, killing very few of the people around them. If millions of people (the same number of people) walked around with loaded guns all day (since if we are going to compare apples with apples, then our car is loaded and ready to kill therefore the gun has to be loaded and ready to kill) then surely there would be a lot more deaths by gun than deaths by auto.

Have I made this simple enough for you? Do I really need to come with statistics to show that your logic is flawed? If everyone in Switzerland ran around with their loaded guns all day, more people would die from accidental gunshot than from accidental auto collisions (a theory, I don't intend to write a doctoral thesis on it to satisfy your opinion to the contrary but am happy to invite you to counter it with your own thesis).

Last edited by 100%; 15.11.2011 at 12:09. Reason: to address the person replying to
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