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  #61  
Old 01.12.2011, 17:59
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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- a minimum wage won't help against illegal workers. It wont stop global warming either or win the war on terror.

- a minimum wage does help against salary dumping. Honestly: To believe blindly in the logic of a free market without limitation is naive. We have by now centuries of experience and tried the past five decades or so to tame raw capitalism a bit. Quite successfully, but it seems like the successes are challenged time and again. I for one am happy that people in most parts of Europe don't need to be as scared of poverty as many Americans. Yes, some people at the lower end of society do need a bit of protection. I personally prefer this to come from the entire society aka government instead of trade unions. Mainly cause the strikes annoy me and are a complete unnecessary "tradition" that could be settled in more effective ways.
So, because you think it is easier for the government to use its police power to force employers to pay a higher wage than the market will bear, that's the way it should be? Instead of working harder and earning those extra few Francs through a raise , you should simply fill in a bubble or punch a hole on a ballot and be entitled to more of someone else's money?

Employees shouldn't have the opportunity to redress their grievances through strikes with their employers on their own because it annoys you?

And yes, many people in Europe need to be scared of poverty- Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain all are facing extremely tough and unpopular decisions brought on largely by socialist fiscal-redistribution policies such as minimum wage law.
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  #62  
Old 01.12.2011, 18:51
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Here even 'dumped salaries get dumped on' - because one group of immigrants undercuts the locals, who are in turn undercut by another group from further afield, who are then undercut by others coming from a poorer country, and so on. Until you have workers from a very poor part of the world being paid CHF10 per day + fed and watered and housed in a backroom to the factory.

In Switzerland? No surely that can't happen, not here (yes it does).
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  #63  
Old 01.12.2011, 19:08
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Here even 'dumped salaries get dumped on' - because one group of immigrants undercuts the locals, who are in turn undercut by another group from further afield, who are then undercut by others coming from a poorer country, and so on. Until you have workers from a very poor part of the world being paid CHF10 per day + fed and watered and housed in a backroom to the factory.

In Switzerland? No surely that can't happen, not here (yes it does).
Have you got proof of that or just something you someone told you?
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  #64  
Old 01.12.2011, 19:13
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Here even 'dumped salaries get dumped on' - because one group of immigrants undercuts the locals, who are in turn undercut by another group from further afield, who are then undercut by others coming from a poorer country, and so on. Until you have workers from a very poor part of the world being paid CHF10 per day + fed and watered and housed in a backroom to the factory.

In Switzerland? No surely that can't happen, not here (yes it does).
Well then this illegal crap should be stopped. Because raising the wage for the bottom rung legal folks is just going to make such practices all the more attractive for the illegals. Or are these immigrants permit holders who are paying AVS and their health insurance and so forth as they should?
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  #65  
Old 01.12.2011, 19:29
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Until you have workers from a very poor part of the world being paid CHF10 per day + fed and watered and housed in a backroom to the factory.

In Switzerland? No surely that can't happen, not here (yes it does).
If you have evidence of this then I suggest you contact the appropriate authorities in Switzerland immediately - most businesses here dont operate under such conditions, and it may surprise you, but not a single person on here advocates it. Even if such a business was found, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would support it and it would not be a reflection of how many businesses here operate. One of the reasons I choose to live in Switzerland is because many of the things you want to see here, dont yet exist on a large scale - yet look at the differences between the standard of living for many people (Of course NOT ALL).

If you dont have evidence of the above, then please remove the emotion out of the posts, because I was under the impression this was a serious thread.
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  #66  
Old 01.12.2011, 19:40
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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If you have evidence of this then I suggest you contact the appropriate authorities in Switzerland immediately - most businesses here dont operate under such conditions.
If you dont have evidence of the above, then please remove the emotion out of the posts, because I was under the impression this was a serious thread.
If you had read this thread completely you would note that I wrote this was reported in the junk paper 20Minutes, 21. Oktober 2011 für fünf Euro pro Stunde

Quote: So why all the fuss? The workers need a safety net against unscrupulous employers http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/20272093

As I am the only person presenting links to facts here, and most of you are just throwing out all the old right wing unsubstantiated rumours, I don't see much point in continuing, as I am going round in circles.

My point is that a minimum wage of CHF 16,-- will not hurt you, or any Swiss employee, but it will hurt the ars***les that bring in desperate illegal workers.
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  #67  
Old 01.12.2011, 19:47
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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If you had read this thread completely you would note that I wrote this was reported in the junk paper 20Minutes, 21. Oktober 2011 für fünf Euro pro Stunde

Quote: So why all the fuss? The workers need a safety net against unscrupulous employers http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/20272093

As I am the only person presenting links to facts here, and most of you are just throwing out all the old right wing unsubstantiated rumours, I don't see much point in continuing, as I am going round in circles.

My point is that a minimum wage of CHF 16,-- will not hurt you, or any Swiss employee, but it will hurt the ars***les that bring in desperate illegal workers.
Illegal employers will be illegal regardless of any minimum wage laws
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  #68  
Old 01.12.2011, 20:15
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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If you had read this thread completely you would note that I wrote this was reported in the junk paper 20Minutes, 21. Oktober 2011

Quote: So why all the fuss? The workers need a safety net against unscrupulous employers http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/20272093

As I am the only person presenting links to facts here, and most of you are just throwing out all the old right wing unsubstantiated rumours, I don't see much point in continuing, as I am going round in circles.
Yes, I read that. Its 5 euros per hour, a terrible wage for Switzerland - as I said in my post.

There is a lot of information out there against - I've read both sides, hence why I am presenting the opposing side. Its even on the internet for you, just google it.

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My point is that a minimum wage of CHF 16,-- will not hurt you, or any Swiss employee, but it will hurt the ars***les that bring in desperate illegal workers.
How? Because I think illegals might come anyway.
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  #69  
Old 01.12.2011, 22:54
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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From June to October 2011, 14 construction workers from Slovakia were paid €5 per hour at the Swiss Finance building site in Bern. (Swiss Finance explicitly stated in the contract that GAV wages must be paid)
Well, guess what? There actually is a minimum wage in the construction industry because construction companies are required by law to stick to the collective labor agreement (allgemeinverbindlicher GAV).

Obviously it didn't help those poor Slovaks! So what makes you believe that a one-size-fits-all minimum wage would have been any better?

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The proposed minimum wage of CHF 16 will not cause inflation, nor raise unemployment, because nobody in Switzerland is usually paid such little money!
I don't know where you have that number from, but the initiative that the trade unions are currently collecting signatures for is asking for CH 22 per hour.

Last edited by Mark75; 01.12.2011 at 23:11. Reason: clarification
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Old 02.12.2011, 07:29
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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... junk paper 20Minutes, 21. Oktober 2011 für fünf Euro pro Stunde

...As I am the only person presenting links to facts here...
Junk paper? Facts? Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

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...and most of you are just throwing out all the old right wing unsubstantiated rumours...
If you can't beat 'em, lump 'em together and dismiss 'em, right?

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My point is that a minimum wage of CHF 16,-- will not hurt you, or any Swiss employee, but it will hurt the ars***les that bring in desperate illegal workers.
Yes, it will- I've explained in several posts previously exactly how. Further, if this wage is so low that it doesn't matter (as you said before), the why are you so emotionally tied to it?

If wage dumping is already illegal here, and there are employers ignoring existing law, then what is another law going to do to help anybody?

It sounds to me like there should be change in how the existing law is enforced, instead of punishing legal employees and employers by denying them their free choice of wage. This is like you find one worm in one apple on your apple tree, and you decide to chop down the whole tree to get that worm.
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Old 10.12.2011, 20:35
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Can somebody provide some links about areas of Switzerland that have a minimum wage and those that do not? I would like to learn more about this but find the theoretical discussions less useful than interpretation of empirical evidence.

The wikipedia article section seems rather relevant in this regard, though I'd love to see more articles about Switzerland in particular.
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  #72  
Old 10.12.2011, 21:35
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Here in Neuchatel, we will soon have the opportunity to vote on a minimum wage being introduced.

Yes or No (and why)?
Of course it has to be a minimum wage...why shouldn't it be?
anything else is total moronic!
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  #73  
Old 15.12.2011, 01:16
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

I work for 17chf/h and it's ok, but I think that a minimum wage around 20chf/h will be a real improvement.
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  #74  
Old 15.12.2011, 14:28
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Here in Neuchatel, we will soon have the opportunity to vote on a minimum wage being introduced.

Yes or No (and why)?
I would vote against a minimum wage law. I don't believe it is the job of the government to tell a private enterprise how to operate its business. Deciding the proper salary compansation should be left to the employer. Implementing minimum wage laws is counterproductive as it costs jobs. An employer with X number of employees could find himself having to cut Y number of jobs due to the increase in salary expenses that the government now requests of that company. Just because the government decides that the employer should compensate better does not result in the employer having a greater number of sales and income to take care of that increased expense.

That's my opinion of this subject as I'm a strict believer in free market capitalism.
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Old 15.12.2011, 14:36
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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So, because you think it is easier for the government to use its police power to force employers to pay a higher wage than the market will bear, that's the way it should be? Instead of working harder and earning those extra few Francs through a raise , you should simply fill in a bubble or punch a hole on a ballot and be entitled to more of someone else's money?
Isn't that happening already? If somebody is working full time but still living below the poverty line and requiring government money (that is taxpayers, ie the rest of us) to make up the difference through social securities, then basically that employer is being antisocial by requiring the rest of us to subsidise the wages of his workers. A minimum wage would put the responsibility back in the employer's lap and be telling him, either you re-work your business case to cover your real costs or you close down your business but stop expecting the rest of us to subsidise you.
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  #76  
Old 15.12.2011, 19:12
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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I would vote against a minimum wage law. I don't believe it is the job of the government to tell a private enterprise how to operate its business. Deciding the proper salary compansation should be left to the employer. Implementing minimum wage laws is counterproductive as it costs jobs. An employer with X number of employees could find himself having to cut Y number of jobs due to the increase in salary expenses that the government now requests of that company. Just because the government decides that the employer should compensate better does not result in the employer having a greater number of sales and income to take care of that increased expense.

That's my opinion of this subject as I'm a strict believer in free market capitalism.
why is the salary different then let say, the right to vacation, SUVA, pension etc? Free market capitalism is just another word for dictatorship...there is nothing free about it
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Old 15.12.2011, 20:11
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Of course it has to be a minimum wage...why shouldn't it be?
anything else is total moronic!
OK, so let's use the US minimum wage!

USD 7.25 ~ CHF 6.20

Tom
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Old 15.12.2011, 20:24
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Yiiiiiiiiiiiiikkkkeeeeesssss indeed
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Old 16.12.2011, 12:48
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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why is the salary different then let say, the right to vacation, SUVA, pension etc? Free market capitalism is just another word for dictatorship...there is nothing free about it
Anybody that equates free market capitalism to dictatorship clearly shows ignorance on this topic.

An employer should have the right to freely hire the person that is best for the job. The terms of the job should be decided between the employer and employee as a job contract is a voluntary in nature. Just as the employer has the right to refuse to hire somebody, so has the employee the free choice not to work for a business. You're clearly ignorant when you state that free market capitalism is equal to dictatorship, especially given that you seem to be in favor of minimum wage laws which DICTATE the minimum compensation an employer is forced to pay his employees that work there on a voluntary basis. Amazing...
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Old 16.12.2011, 13:18
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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An employer should have the right to freely hire the person that is best for the job. The terms of the job should be decided between the employer and employee as a job contract is a voluntary in nature. Just as the employer has the right to refuse to hire somebody, so has the employee the free choice not to work for a business. You're clearly ignorant when you state that free market capitalism is equal to dictatorship, especially given that you seem to be in favor of minimum wage laws which DICTATE the minimum compensation an employer is forced to pay his employees that work there on a voluntary basis. Amazing...
I've met people who work or have worked good paying jobs in the middle east. They always seem to talk about how it is a great way to save money, but say that they wouldn't want to live there permanently - they wouldn't want to raise kids in such a culture. One of the reasons that I've heard is that they wouldn't want their kids to see how household employees are treated.

Now people, and companies, who prefer Switzerland to the UAE might do so for all sorts of reasons - clean air, unspoiled views, trains that run on time, shopkeepers that are healthy and well fed.

I guess it is just a question of what sort of country you want to live in.
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