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Old 16.12.2011, 13:42
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Anybody that equates free market capitalism to dictatorship clearly shows ignorance on this topic.

An employer should have the right to freely hire the person that is best for the job. The terms of the job should be decided between the employer and employee as a job contract is a voluntary in nature. Just as the employer has the right to refuse to hire somebody, so has the employee the free choice not to work for a business. You're clearly ignorant when you state that free market capitalism is equal to dictatorship, especially given that you seem to be in favor of minimum wage laws which DICTATE the minimum compensation an employer is forced to pay his employees that work there on a voluntary basis. Amazing...
That's fine in theory. But in practice people don't really always have that freedom of choice. If you are poor and have a family to look after and you're in an area of high unemployment and have no special skills that give you an advantage over the rest you're not really in a position to make demands when you're hired. So for some CEO or banker it may be feasible to walk away for a job because you're not happy with some minor detail because you know you could find another job within a couple of weeks. Not so if you're at the bottom of the food chain. I think the people at the top either forget what it is like to be at the bottom, or are being intentionally obtuse to further their own ends. Basically they are claiming the right to pay people so badly that the rest of society has to support, ie subsidze their workers. Yet these same people are using every loophole to evade taxes and criminally cheat the system, sorry, reduce their tax footprint using tax-efficient wrappers. So if the public purse has to pay for your workers, why won't you contribute more to the public purse?
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Old 16.12.2011, 14:00
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Isn't that happening already? If somebody is working full time but still living below the poverty line and requiring government money (that is taxpayers, ie the rest of us) to make up the difference through social securities, then basically that employer is being antisocial by requiring the rest of us to subsidise the wages of his workers. A minimum wage would put the responsibility back in the employer's lap and be telling him, either you re-work your business case to cover your real costs or you close down your business but stop expecting the rest of us to subsidise you.
How can it be the employer that is being subsidised? An employer is actually doing a service to the community - running a business and providing charity are two different things. The community has a choice, dont work for them and/or dont buy their products - this is a voluntary decision - and a risk that the business weighs when determining what it will pay and what it charge. If the employer cant afford OR the employee is not worth a higher pay level, than the employee actually has a choice, he can continue working with the employer or he can leave - that is fair. But you cant FORCE someone to give you something for nothing - the something ALWAYS comes at the expense of something else - resources are limited. So if you want to force an employer to pay more than he would need to in an unfettered market, then as a consequence you need to decide where the cost is going to come from, the employer only has limited capital, so it cant be them.


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either you re-work your business case to cover your real costs or you close down your business but stop expecting the rest of us to subsidise you.
Oh dear, you make it sound like running a business and taking risks is a walk in the park. Nobody makes a profit just because they wish for one, and many businesses dont make a profit at all in their first few years, if ever. A business reworks its business case every single moment - its dynamic. A business can only have 'x' amount available that it pays to workers - thats fact, there is no such thing as unlimited amount of capital. If you force a business to pay more than 'x' then your either forcing someone to become jobless or forcing the business to pass the costs onto customers.

Real costs by the way are market costs - not what some bureaucrat decides in an office. How is dictating someone how much they must pay to an employee a 'real' cost? - sounds pretty 'artificial' to me.
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Old 16.12.2011, 14:38
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Reminds me of those businessmen of old, like Suchard, or the Cadbury's, Rowntree, or my grand-father, the paternalisitc/Christian types who believed it was their duty to run a business to support those who didn't have the ability to do so themselves. Who provided houses with gardens, a school and an infirmary - for the good of the workers. We all pooppoed paternalism (for excellent reasons btw) - but I am not sure many businessmen now run their commerce for the good of the community.

I can see the argument that employing people take them off the dole, and allow them to join the 'food chain' somehow - but that 'x' amount has to have a threshold that allows basic survival, in a civilised world, and a bit of self-respect. As said above, no different to basic entitlement to holidays, sick pay,etc. If you follow your argument, none of those should be legal entitlements. At least your argumentation has had an advantage, I know who you are now
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Old 16.12.2011, 14:39
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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The community has a choice, dont work for them and/or dont buy their products - this is a voluntary decision - and a risk that the business weighs when determining what it will pay and what it charge.
Can you explain to me what is so "free market" about paying a wage that is so low that the recipient must claim social benefits in parallel to survive? In what way is that not a govenment susbidy of wages? And in what way is a legally proscribed minimal wage to be set at such a level that such a subsidy is not necessary worse than such a subsidy? You say resources are limited and the company can maybe not afford to pay those wages. But why then should the rest of us taxpayers then subsidise the enterprise?
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Old 16.12.2011, 15:43
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Can you explain to me what is so "free market" about paying a wage that is so low that the recipient must claim social benefits in parallel to survive?
First of all, nobody is paid a wage according to 'survival'. You are paid a wage according to the skills that you provide. No skills can expect less than a high skilled person. Thats the reason why most of us earn more than what we need to survive. You will always have people at the bottom, who have no skills and little to offer - no-one can change that situation except the people themselves if they are able bodied.

Benefits to survive? Well ok, how do we treat people with a wife and 6 kids differently to one with a wife and one child or a childless couple? Are they all equal? Do you think all of them have the same CHF requirement to 'survive'? So who decides what is needed and how much is needed to survive? So by your logic, they should all be paid different amounts right? I mean a 6 child couple needs six times the amount of money per child to survive than a one child couple. Since we are talking minimum wage and we are talking survival, then I guess people with more children should be paid more? If not, then please tell me how all these families are the same? Where do we get the extra cash to support the 6 child couple? How do we define 'survival' - who decides that? It has to come from somewhere!! And in which situtations would we say, 'hey you made your decisions, now you have to live with some of the responsibility'.

The reason people are having trouble 'surviving' is because we live in a society where we not only have to look after our own families but that of other people including ones that see fit not to change their situations - that is a burden to families who are trying their best to improve their lives. This is creating a massive burden on everyone and hence why the middle class is disintegrating (only the middle class has a large enough base to pay for it as thats where all the income tax bulk lies). We are creating incentives for working less, taking more welfare, and disincentives for creating jobs and businesses such as those that you propose. Result = current state of many EU countries today.

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In what way is that not a govenment susbidy of wages?
Because the alternative is no job and more of a burden on welfare, right? So if you think low pay + welfare = survive, then what does no pay + welfare equal? Must be either more welfare OR no survival.

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And in what way is a legally proscribed minimal wage to be set at such a level that such a subsidy is not necessary worse than such a subsidy?
Because I just told you its not a subsidy. The alternative is no job at all. So your saying if all small businesses closed, kicked out employees and then those employees are forced on the dole, that then is society sudsidising business? yeah right.

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You say resources are limited and the company can maybe not afford to pay those wages. But why then should the rest of us taxpayers then subsidise the enterprise?
Well see above.

But then dont subsidise it, choose where you want to have your tax money spent. And let me know when you find a country that does that, because I would move there also (hint: your living in one that gets as close as they come). If you want government to stop subsidising things, then vote for less government NOT more.
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Old 16.12.2011, 16:10
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Because the alternative is no job and more of a burden on welfare, right? So if you think low pay + welfare = survive, then what does no pay + welfare equal? Must be either more welfare OR no survival.



Because I just told you its not a subsidy. The alternative is no job at all. So your saying if all small businesses closed, kicked out employees and then those employees are forced on the dole, that then is society sudsidising business? yeah right.
Look at it this way. If a company is paying such low wages then I see two possibilities

a) it is genuinely unable to increase them, ie, the margins are very low and the company is tottering on the edge.
b) the company is just too cheap to pay people properly and is being antisocial

For companies in the (b) category I have no pity. Let them pay fair wages, and if it needs a law to forec them to do what is the decent and right thing anway, then shame on them for not taking that step voluntarily.

As for the (a) category. Think about it, a company making virtually no profit, providing virtually no fiscal revenue, but through its existence occupying premises and consuming resources and hence driving up the prices of the same. Would it not be better for the economy as a whole to let that company die a just death and free up resources for others to maybe create more meaningful jobs? Think about it, people earning such poor wages are maybe doing a second job at night and are not able to sepnd the time with their familly that the family needs. What is that doing to their children? lack of love and care is creating the problem cases of tomorrow that will cost a lot of (taxpayer) money to put right tomorrow? People who put the bottom line before social responsibility are sociopaths and deserve to be put out of business.
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Old 16.12.2011, 18:48
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Can you explain to me what is so "free market" about paying a wage that is so low that the recipient must claim social benefits in parallel to survive? In what way is that not a govenment susbidy of wages? And in what way is a legally proscribed minimal wage to be set at such a level that such a subsidy is not necessary worse than such a subsidy? You say resources are limited and the company can maybe not afford to pay those wages. But why then should the rest of us taxpayers then subsidise the enterprise?
The problem are subsidies altogether. I didn't say that I'm against the anti-free market government regulation for one but not for the other. What many people fail to understand is that government subsidies and government interference in the market place is what causes bad business cycles as the economy cannot find a healthy equilibrium. It's bad economic policy to interfere in the business and finance cycles as it allows for bad business and financial decisions to be rewarded when otherwise they would be punished by the market forces.


So people complain about wages and how the government must set a higher minimum wage law so that they can make the ends meet. Meanwhile few people question why the cost of living is high. If it weren't for artificial interest rate policy (anti-free market), government interference in the Real Estate market through loan subsidies and interest payment reduction from taxes, etc. (all anti-free market) the cost of living wouldn't be so high. Switzerland has an artificial RE market that is a bubble. It will take more years until that bubble finally bursts but the cost for homes and condos are artificially high and that is only sustainable as long as interest rates are kept artificially low and the governmetn subsidizes the pruchase of that product with interest payment deductions from taxes.

And to this question:
"But why then should the rest of us taxpayers then subsidise the enterprise?"

The enterprise shouldn't be subsidized.
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Old 16.12.2011, 19:22
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Look at it this way. If a company is paying such low wages then I see two possibilities
There are no possibilities, there is only 'market' and 'price'. Labour has a price irrespective of the options you provide.

Employees do not get paid according to rick or poor, and employers dont pay wages according to how rich or poor they themselves are. There is an offer, negotiation and agreement. Anything outside of that is called coersion.

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For companies in the (b) category I have no pity. Let them pay fair wages, and if it needs a law to forec them to do what is the decent
I asked you before, which you didnt answer, to please tell me what is a fair wage for a family with one child and one with six children when the wage earner in both have the same qualifications? Who should be paid more? If they get the same pay at the enforced minimum, then one family will struggle and may not survive, so what should be done then? You cannot tailor a 'decent wage' when people left right and centre are creating their own decisions in life. Some study, some not, others have kids, others not - there is no one size fits all.

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As for the (a) category. Think about it, a company making virtually no profit, providing virtually no fiscal revenue, but through its existence occupying premises and consuming resources and hence driving up the prices of the same. Would it not be better for the economy as a whole to let that company die a just death and free up resources for others to maybe create more meaningful jobs?
What has this got to do with anything though? Bankruptcy is part and parcel of capitalism - which is not the discussion here. Anything that doesnt allow the function of bankruptcy to take place is called socialism - i.e. subsidies, bailouts are a way of manipulating the essence and important function of bankruptcy.

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What is that doing to their children? lack of love and care is creating the problem cases of tomorrow that will cost a lot of (taxpayer) money to put right tomorrow?
It shouldnt cost any taxpayer money and the taxpayers should have nothing to do with it.

Having a family is a personal choice, and more importantly a personal reponsibility. There are many people today who are delaying having kids because of the uncertainty created by government and because of their present financial conditions. It is hardly fair, that these people should be burdened by others who have decided to have more children than they can care for - this is where your decent wage comes in! Should a 'decent' wage for a family with no kids be different to one with many?. It is up to an individual to determine whether they can afford to look after one child or three - and then once the decision is made, sacrifices usually need to take place. The pay you receive, should not be determined by that.

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People who put the bottom line before social responsibility are sociopaths and deserve to be put out of business.
I guess you work for a charity then!

The bottom line is the reason how we figure out how to look after ourselves instead of asking others to do it for us. I go to work not because i hate sunning myself at the beach, im doing it to improve the quality of my family's life and to prevent being a burden on others in society who would then in turn put pressure on my children.

Social responsibility should start in your own home first.

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Meanwhile few people question why the cost of living is high.
Exactly!!! This is precisely the reason why getting into these discussions which can center on rich and poor are pointless without understanding this first. Favouritism of the financial sector by government (who have benefited directly by financing their promises from low rates) and central banks over all other industries is the precise reasons of some of todays problems. Put simply, 'Money creation' based on nothing is the prime cause of these ills. (thanks for bringing it up!)
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Old 16.12.2011, 20:19
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Obviously, the government should never do anything to interfere with the contracts between two independent parties. Well, except for enforcing said contracts. Which currently is hard, depending on the contract.

However, things are looking up! In the US there are signs that debtors prisons are becoming accepted again. Next we need to start trimming away employee safety regulations and then we can start working on legalizing indentured servitude.
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Old 16.12.2011, 20:19
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

refreshing to read that there are still a few people out there that seem to be as disgusted with Socialism as I am.
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Old 17.12.2011, 00:38
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Anybody that equates free market capitalism to dictatorship clearly shows ignorance on this topic.

An employer should have the right to freely hire the person that is best for the job. The terms of the job should be decided between the employer and employee as a job contract is a voluntary in nature. Just as the employer has the right to refuse to hire somebody, so has the employee the free choice not to work for a business. You're clearly ignorant when you state that free market capitalism is equal to dictatorship, especially given that you seem to be in favor of minimum wage laws which DICTATE the minimum compensation an employer is forced to pay his employees that work there on a voluntary basis. Amazing...
you just defined exploration...yes truly amazing...oohh the "poor" employers...so why not skip pension, SUVA, the right to vacation, 40h working week...why not skip all those...please enlighten me...
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Old 17.12.2011, 13:45
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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you just defined exploration...yes truly amazing...oohh the "poor" employers...so why not skip pension, SUVA, the right to vacation, 40h working week...why not skip all those...please enlighten me...
What I'm saying is that in a free society with a free market, anybody has the right to hire anybody as long as the two parties agree on the term. That anybody tries to connect free markets to dictatorship is absurd.

Any employer has the right to treat the employees with respect, compensate them well, overcompensate them, pay them extra vacation time, etc. But it shouldn't be law as you otherwise, eventually, create the environment that discourages job creation and that will ultimately hurt the economy. I'm in support of freedom and free markets. Let's agree to disagree that people should have the right to choose freely for themselves.
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Old 17.12.2011, 14:09
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Very few countries in the so-called developed world where this happens now. As said before, most trades and professions in CH have agreements about wages, holidays, etc, etc, so it is definitely a 'free market' at all. The introduction of a minimum wage will make very little difference to the majority of employers and workers - just a very small proportion, mainly women and foreigners, and mostly foreign women actually - who are clearly exploited at the moment. Importing foreigners into CH to pay them very little does not in any way, shape or form help with un-employment (and release local gvts from paying social security, etc, au contraire mon ami, au contraire.). Once these people are in employment but realise they cannot survive due to high cost of living, accommodation, etc, they have to reply on social payments and all sort of help from other tax payers- so an indirect subsidy for said business.
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Old 17.12.2011, 15:05
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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What I'm saying is that in a free society with a free market, anybody has the right to hire anybody as long as the two parties agree on the term. That anybody tries to connect free markets to dictatorship is absurd.

Any employer has the right to treat the employees with respect, compensate them well, overcompensate them, pay them extra vacation time, etc. But it shouldn't be law as you otherwise, eventually, create the environment that discourages job creation and that will ultimately hurt the economy. I'm in support of freedom and free markets. Let's agree to disagree that people should have the right to choose freely for themselves.
please answer my question, you are for or against of skipping the right to e.g. vacation, regulated working time, pension, SUVA ...a very simple YES or NO would do...(these are ALL regulated by the state)
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Old 17.12.2011, 16:55
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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refreshing to read that there are still a few people out there that seem to be as disgusted with Socialism as I am.
Sorry mate, but then you in the wrong country.

Switzerland invented socialism way before any other country. Introduced somewhere in 15th century. We called "Allmedwiese" it's a piece of grass, public owned, the poorest and most unlucky farmer of the village could grass his cows there, give him a chance to get good milk and meat to keep up. What is so bad with this? What is so bad to help the less fortune one? We can't help the whole world, but we can help the (our) people next door.

In the past we had "patrons" here, not CEO's. How in gods name a cleaning lady has to work 430 years to have for once the same income as the highest paid employee in the same company, called "CEO". He bears no risk (proven last couple years) what makes him really so valuable? I don't see it?

For me it is simple unmoral. He gave this high salary by himself. no one really approved this salary. And this is a symptom of our times we live in, we are loose decency and moral. Here is Switzerland we are getting so selfish that we are even jealous when our neighbor has toothache - as he has something we don't have!!!

As someone mentioned before, our "patrons" felt to be in charge to take care of their workforce. It was their capital as well. Oh yes, we still call it human resources, but todays should be called rather human commodity, fire and hire at will. For 3 month no shareholder profits in the millions (or today rather billions), fire a couple thousands to beautify the accounting. I never ever read that then the CEO should leave - as he is not able to perform well, no, we fire simple staff, they are cheap and you can manipulate them at will. We even hire the same folks back, just for lower wages later.

Companies grow larger and larger, to many of them have a profit larger then many countries GDP. I am scared to the bones what they will become in future, as the concentration process continues.

Currently 47 companies rule the world, not the politicians, Why else we introducing more and more laws to cut off their taxes down to 0.00, secure their profit with our tax money!?

What happen currently is destroying our social network. We cut off families and their supporting network by scattering all over the country, or even the world. The one of you who has kids know what I am talking about. What is the value having a sister (and her family) or grandmother/dad just around the corner? For the sake of a good career we are pushing the children backwards in our timetable. Mother with 40? No problem, you just risk to grow them without support of grandparents still alive! Yesterday I buried my mother, no more grandparents around means 120.- for a nanny to attend the funeral. 60.- to get an haircut, this it counts up. If you loose your job, nowhere family to sneak under their umbrella. As a single, I just need a couch by a friend, with a family: a complete different story.

What has it to do with the minimum wage? None, except these are all cost that additionally arise and you need to pay them. For me as single income, two kids, the poverty line 4800.- And this is official, not a dream of me.
With this income I cannot pay taxes anymore, I just sustain a status quo! No holidays or anything! This counts down to 30.-/hrs without social cost. A little bit sick (if we still wanna pay them?), holiday, pension fund etc. and we are at 39.-, so the company has to charge for my labor 75-85.- an hour to be straight even. No profit.

Last year, September I lost my job, for economic reason. Now a German fellow has my job, for 3'300.- gross. Down we go, in all glory!

Free market needs regulations and rules. I can't believe my eyes that they really start to discuss child labor in the US. How sick you have to be to even think about? Profit is all, money is the god. I think we should introduce a law, 500 Millions and you not aloud to work anymore or invest, just spend it. If you get caught with 500,000,001.00 we zero it out to nil.

So you get the so promising cleaning job next day by yourself. That would be fun!

Maybe a tax law for everyone 10%. And it doesn't matter what. 10% it is.
I think we would have so much money we don't know what to do with it!!
But currently, low income and the once who think they are rich (10 Mil. and more income) bear the burden, the real rich, the once I know from their toys I worked on (Mega and Giga Yachts), they not even pay 0.1%.

As a world, WE ARE RICH enough that everyone could earn a decent salary and live a decent live.

So, if you think minimum wage is already something to dispute, then I will trow you bone you will start to haul like a pack of wolves...

Here the link for all German speaking folks http://www.initiative-grundeinkommen.ch/content/stat/
an English link would be welcome!

The same matter, but global scale: http://www.globalincome.org/English/English.html

The idea is follow:
Everybody receives a guaranteed a minimum income. Poor, rich, young, old - everyone gets every month 2500.- So, as a couple 5000.-
But you don't get welfare. no unemployment, no sick leave; however, you will still get your pension.
How do we finance that? We do it already. If we collect all the money we spend currently, for social workers, RAV, IV, unemployment, insurances, widow pension, welfare agencies, take all this money and distribute it evenly we can pay every born swiss citizen 2500.- As my wife is Russian, she will get 0.00, for the rest of her live, even if she gets her Swiss passport - but the two kids and me, 7500.-
Will I stop working, certainly not, and with me more then 90% of all Swiss people! But the pressure is gone, I can choose the work I will do, I can even start to be artist!?!

Funny enough, if you ask people: Will you stop working? All say no, they still would continue to work, maybe something different, maybe his/her boss has to learn some manner or they are gone. But they will work.

Now, you asking the same people, will it be a good idea to introduce such a system, they will answer no, because everybody would stop working!

Ask yourself, would you go all day long swimming and sun bathing or would you rather try to do something good, something you never could do before? Would like to give your live a meaning life as the basic financial pressure is gone?

Or I give you another figure, currently there are more man hours spend in voluntary work (hiking with handicapped, church work, work with elderly, with kids, and, and...) then in service or manufacturing work together!

2500.- is not much, you can exist, but I am sure you would also like to earn more! But not for every price!
Under no circumstances lower, as then the effect reverses. It would make us to slaves.

With the system today, ALL of us getting obsolete sooner or later. ALL our jobs are gone to be exported to a cheaper country or, as in the USA maybe, back to 6 or 8 year old, working cheaper then a Chinese, at least for a couple of years until the system disposes them.

OK, go on, rip me apart

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Old 17.12.2011, 16:56
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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please answer my question, you are for or against of skipping the right to e.g. vacation, regulated working time, pension, SUVA ...a very simple YES or NO would do...(these are ALL regulated by the state)
YES, I am against such a law. That doesn't mean that I am against vacations but what many fail to understand is that all these regulations make it more difficult for businesses to start as the cost is too high. A business could higher more employees and be more productive if it wouldn't have to deal with the many regulations that the government imposes on them.

Further, all these regulation grow the cost of government which eventually leads to greater taxation (or budget deficits...). And of course the small guy doesn't want to pay the greater taxes so it will be passed on to the "rich" and the businesses, making it more difficult for people to start businesses and for businesses to exist.

A job is not a right. Too many people have the entitlement mentality that somebody else out there should be forced to take care of them.
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Old 17.12.2011, 17:04
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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YES, I am against such a law. That doesn't mean that I am against vacations but what many fail to understand is that all these regulations make it more difficult for businesses to start as the cost is too high. A business could higher more employees and be more productive if it wouldn't have to deal with the many regulations that the government imposes on them.

A job is not a right. Too many people have the entitlement mentality that somebody else out there should be forced to take care of them.
When I had my first business, all of a sudden I was overcrowded with work. Then the story began, too much for 1, not enough for 2, then too much for 2 but not enough for 3, until we reached 8, then it starts to balance off. We are getting more and more profit orientated, profit is our god. Thats why we need laws. In a decent world with decent people I would agree. But as greed overgrows, we need regulation.

We freed the financial market from regulations and it bought poverty to 99% of us. Fair?
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Old 17.12.2011, 17:12
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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please answer my question, you are for or against of skipping the right to e.g. vacation, regulated working time, pension, SUVA ...a very simple YES or NO would do...(these are ALL regulated by the state)
What part of the YES in capital letters did you miss?
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Old 17.12.2011, 17:16
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Thats why we need laws. In a decent world with decent people I would agree. But as greed overgrows, we need regulation.

We freed the financial market from regulations and it bought poverty to 99% of us. Fair?
And who do you thinks puts the regulation in place? It's the greedy bankers et al...I suggest you read the book "The Creature from Jekyll Island".

There is no such thing as fair regulation. It's regulation brought to us by people for the benefit of the people that have the power for those regulations.

Who do you think puts financial regulation in place, regulation for pharma, medicine, regulation for cars, etc. Sure, the naive think that regulation is there for their benefit but in reality, regulation is there to eliminate competition. Why do you think the majority of the people work all their lives without ever owning their homes...but hey, it's all great because they can buy their home and maintain it with an interest only loan...regulation works perfectly...for those that put the regulation in place
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Old 17.12.2011, 18:30
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Did you read my question mark.

But here and now, I agree 100% of your last post.
We are cheated and mistreated and just clapping our hand and cry "BRAVO"

I certainly love the new regulation: "Herbs" if you claim a herb is healthy (as in: it hasn't killed anyone in the last 5000 years) you now need to prove it in clinic studies. Speak: Equal rights for phama-industries.

All the "Mom and Pop" farms growing herbs are now drug-dealers in a German sense
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