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  #101  
Old 17.12.2011, 17:46
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

there is never equal rights to the pharma industry but it sure sounds free and fair...I suggest you read up on the FDA an aspartame as just one very obvious example...but there are so many more....regulation, laws, government board/panel decisions are always influenced by the big money behind the scenes

For that reason I suggest to be open to free market principles. People must take personal responsibility. With freedom comes personal responsibility and what I do in my past time should not be the business of anybody else, whether that activity is healthy or not. Of course I'm talking about activities that do not harm others.

Back to the minimum wage laws. I think setting such standards only hurts the economy in the long term. Jobs are lost, fewer jobs created, hours cut, etc. Government subsidies/regulation don't solve a problem, they allow the problem to grow bigger in size.
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  #102  
Old 17.12.2011, 20:02
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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What part of the YES in capital letters did you miss?
just wanted to make sure...luckily the world don't share your fascist ideas...
...and welcome to 2011 btw...
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  #103  
Old 17.12.2011, 20:37
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

First of all there is no such thing as a free market. For those whose illusion bubble I have just burst, I add that there is no Santa Claus either. All these things were made up by people.

What there is is an environment created by society and by the government. The government creates laws and regulations and says what people can and can't do. So if you think supply and demand is a free market mechanism, it's not free. It's regulated. Even the labour market is regulated as the government controls the gates of immigration and can artificially create a shortage or over-supply in any given sector at any time. Raw materials are regulated because the government won't allow anybody to dig up minerals anywhere but again there is an approvals process. Transportation is regulated because the government has built and maintains the roads and railways and airports and decides where additional capacity is needed and what form it should take.

Now some countries have gotten around that apparent lack of freedom by giving the people the whip hand over the government. That is, the people can tell the government what to do, and fire them if they don't do it. That's called democracy. Not socialism, democracy. It's something that's coming out of fashion these days. Other people don't like that, and say that rather than a strong and accountable government we should have a weak government that answers only to the lobbyists and corporations that payroll it. They call that freedom, but it's freedom only for the big corporations and rich and not for the masses. The common man is just an expendable resource. hire him when you need him. Let him rot when you don't. Just as with other resources such as for example the environment. Don't let people tell you not to pollute for example. The right to pollute is freedom.

Now in a democracy, the vote is the highest element of power and freedom. The people can freely vote about what they will and will not allow corporations to do, rather than vice versa. And if the people vote themselves vacation days and SUVA and a state pension, so be it. If it turns out they are hurting the economy more than the economy can sustain, then they can repeal that. Democracy permits changes in both directions. But at the end of the day, it's not the corporations who decide but the people. A controlled system is better than an uncontrolled system. Unfettered market freedom is an uncontrolled system that is inherently instable and unaccountable and swings between periods of great prosperity and great shortage and will not accept some regulation that holds back the excesses at one end to help out at the other. The free market philosophy says that an uncontrolled system will work better than a controlled one. That is a mantra that is not backed by any logic. Ask them why their cars have steering wheels or their lights switches or their doors locks, and they agree that controlling things is better than allowing the system to find its own equilibrium (which more often than not means the car in the ditch and the house robbed of its contents), but suggest that the economy must similarly be controlled and they freak out and shout socialism. If you want to know what socialism really is, read your history books. Protecting people is not socialism. As long as things like vacation days or regulations on pollution etc apply to everybody, it's just a level playing field. It's not really an intervention for or against any party, as it affects all to the same extent.
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  #104  
Old 17.12.2011, 20:44
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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just wanted to make sure...luckily the world don't share your fascist ideas...
Obviously you haven't the faintest clue about fascism.

Just two key quotes from wikipedia: (emphasis mine)
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In economics, fascists oppose economic liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being class-based movements.
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Fascists advocate: a state-directed, regulated economy that is dedicated to the nation; the use and primacy of regulated private property and private enterprise contingent upon service to the nation or state; the use of state enterprise where private enterprise is failing or is inefficient; and autarky. They are hostile to finance capitalism, plutocracy, the "power of money", and internationalist economics.
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  #105  
Old 17.12.2011, 20:56
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Obviously you haven't the faintest clue about fascism.

Just two key quotes from wikipedia: (emphasis mine)
You can bash labels all day, and just like socialism, fascism is a label and no more.

Corporations today are much larger and stronger than those of the 1930s when fascism was around. Corporations today are demanding the government recede and shrink and hand over power that was until now its own (and hence the democratic will of the people) and replace it by the ad-hoc will of the corporations. Thus corporations are becoming the new government and the old government is just the executive arm thereof. The new government despises true economic freedom as it doesn't want a level playing field but one that serves its own advantage. Or why else do you think there are so many lobbyists and corporations spend so much on lobbying?
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  #106  
Old 17.12.2011, 21:05
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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there is never equal rights to the pharma industry but it sure sounds free and fair...I suggest you read up on the FDA an aspartame
Good example. Aspartame has been pulled off the Swiss market as a source of cancer. So in the US. Then Coke Zero came and it was sudden OK again. And then the first cancer cases. So Coke pullet it off the US market. But was still on sale in Mexico. Coke wrote: The Latinos have a different genetic structure then Caucasian (who "invented" this word BTW - Caucasian, the real one, a more brown then white).
Here in Europe I see Coke Zero everywhere, I see in at least 10 different products in Migros Aspartame, all of a sudden it is safe. But the safe Stevia had a long, long fight until spring 2011 (the missfunded study, that Stevia is carcinogenic is obsolete or do you eat 50kg each day?)

Or we change the safe reading on blood pressure and sudden a 200 Million market in Europe blows to a 2 billion market. But up to date we are not sure what its a safe level or even whats the cause. We just fight symptoms for good profit. Thats why we call it health industry - an industry in absurd um as they need sick people for profit!!!!

We are just a sick society. Money is everything
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  #107  
Old 17.12.2011, 21:14
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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You can bash labels all day, and just like socialism, fascism is a label and no more.
a) It wasn't me who came up with the 'fascist' label.
b) I was merely pointing out that labeling backtoch's POV 'fascist' is nothing than utter BS.
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  #108  
Old 18.12.2011, 08:56
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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just wanted to make sure...luckily the world don't share your fascist ideas...
...and welcome to 2011 btw...
I'm not wasting my time with people that use words, especially when used against others, when they don't even understand their definition and meaning.

Anybody that labels pro-free market capitalists as a fascist clearly does not have the intellect to discuss such topics. This is not a personal attack but my comment based on facts, the erroneous content of your reply.

I don't mind taking time discussing topics; in fact, discussing topics with others that have 180 degree opposite views can be very mentally stimulating. But please discuss with content in support of your idealogies and refrain from incorrect ad hominem attacks with words you don't understand the meaning of.
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  #109  
Old 18.12.2011, 09:01
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Obviously you haven't the faintest clue about fascism.

Just two key quotes from wikipedia: (emphasis mine)
if people are "disgusted" by socialism then they don't have the faintest idea, everywhere in europe there are socialism, even in US there are socialism,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Free market capitalism is a similar illusion as communism, both will lead to extremes, i.e. fascism/corporatism/dictatorship

E.g. Since Reagan introduced "free market capitalism" in US, it has been a downward spiral to misery...

I do believe that we should a have freedom for both the companies and the employees and I do believe that people should have more self-responsibility then today, but the state (i.e. the people) has to lay down the "playground rules", i.e. fundamental rights like vacation, minimum salary, pension, SUVA etc for the employees and the companies will get their share in e.g. subsidies, export/import regulations...

you can't have a "free system" based on "take it or leave it", this will of course lead to exploration and semi-slavery...and we would not want that do we?
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  #110  
Old 18.12.2011, 09:04
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Money is everything
Exactly.

Thans for your comment, I wasn't aware of Coke Zero in Switzerland but there are still many other examples...I was actually referring to the FDA decision on how it became legal in the US...search for "fda aspartame rumsfeld".

That's why I am of the opinion that we shouldn't regulate the market place. Because regulation is inefficient due to greed and personal agendae. Sniffing gasoline can be legal but I wouldn't do it. Just because things are legal does not equate to people doing it. And if people are doing it they should live with the consequences. Only in an environment where people have a reaction to their actions will people learn from their behavior and mistakes. That is not isolated to a specific field but can be applied to health, finance, etc.

If you are looking for an interesting cancer read I can highly recommend "A World Without Cancer" by Giffin.

For that reason I am against market regulation as I strongly believe that the best form of regulation is a free market which naturally self-regulates when allowed to.
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  #111  
Old 18.12.2011, 09:07
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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I'm not wasting my time with people that use words, especially when used against others, when they don't even understand their definition and meaning.

Anybody that labels pro-free market capitalists as a fascist clearly does not have the intellect to discuss such topics. This is not a personal attack but my comment based on facts, the erroneous content of your reply.

I don't mind taking time discussing topics; in fact, discussing topics with others that have 180 degree opposite views can be very mentally stimulating. But please discuss with content in support of your idealogies and refrain from incorrect ad hominem attacks with words you don't understand the meaning of.
if you have followed the history you would already know what happens to countries following "free market capitalism"...I'm sure it's a wonderful thing in an ideal world, but there is no "my little pony"-world...and same as communism, "free market capitalism" will lead to the extremes, so if you would have checked your history and not sticking by definitions then you would know better...maybe they forgot to mention that in the "Klubschule Migro MBA"...

and by saying that socialism disgusts you, you have no idea at all...
Socialism is what is in-corporated in the most strong economic countries today...
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  #112  
Old 18.12.2011, 09:26
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

I'm in total agreement with you that we don't have free markets and that there here isn't any free market system left as people love power and tell others what they can do and how to live their lives. People also realize that they can enrich themselves through regulation that eliminates competition and creates a more profitable environment.

I disagree though that people make the laws and regulation...that's the fairy tale many believe...but that ignores the politics that goes on in order to push various laws and regulation through.

Did the Swiss people support a bailout of the financial industry? Did the people support transparancy of the banks and the elimination of the Bankgeheimnis? Did Americans support a bailout of their banks? Fact is that markets aren't free and with that comes the power for the powerful to manipulate the markets in their favor and push regulation through. The financial system has been used for centuries to change public opinion and using the financial system as hostage the powerful use it to their advantage to change public opinon. That power doesn't exist naturally in a free market environment.

"As long as things like vacation days or regulations on pollution etc apply to everybody, it's just a level playing field. It's not really an intervention for or against any party, as it affects all to the same extent."

Sure, it applies for everybody but it is nevertheless anti-free market and will ultimately harm the economy as it discourages job production. You also can't ignore the fact that there are other more business friendly environments available in the world and outsourcing is not at all a new phenomenon. I'm of the opnion that such regulation will reduce the incentive for people to create jobs as it becomes more difficult for a company to operate in such a regulated environment. I believe it will ultimately cost jobs and hurt the economy in the long term.

Although a "comedian" he has a good understanding of the system.

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  #113  
Old 18.12.2011, 10:29
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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lay down the "playground rules", i.e. fundamental rights like vacation, minimum salary, pension, SUVA etc for the employees and the companies will get their share in e.g. subsidies, export/import regulations...
This thread here has really turned out into a total food fight, it will go nowhere.

Oseuco you wanted your question to the entitlements answered, so i will answer it.

First of all, you make the mistake thinking that the things listed above are 'free', they are not. Everything that appears to come free has a price. I will list what im trying to say below.

1. Firstly, all the entitlements listed above have a monetary value. This means they are worth something. They have a defined , CHF, $ value.

2. All resources are limited. Government laws cannot create something for nothing. Therefore a wage pool for example, allocated in a business is basically fixed i.e there is a budget.

So what am I trying to say.......

3. When the government enacts a law for the entitlements as listed above - Many people think these are ADDED to pay. THEY ARE NOT. These entitlements are actually SUBTRACTED from the existing wage pool i.e. entitlement instead of cash. Remember that the wage pool is limited and divided among the existing employees.

4. This means that if a worker is earning 80,000 + 4 weeks holiday. If the government comes along and says vote for us and we will give 8 weeks holiday (even better lets have 15 weeks ). What will happen is that you WILL NOT get 80,000 and 8 weeks holiday. You will get 8 weeks holiday and LESS than 80,000.

5. In practice you cannot see this because it takes time to filter through. In time this will be seen as either LOWER wages or FEWER employees. No-one will have their pay instantly slashed, because it takes time to work through the system.

6. The things above are ONE of the many reasons the Western world is today uncompetitive, inflexible and suffers a FALLING standard of living - Yes there are many more however.

Your question was 'do you want these entitlements?'. Yes I do, I have ALREADY PAID for them with my labour. BUT, I would rather have a choice if I want them as CASH or as above. For example, I dont want a pension, I want it is cash today before the government steals it to bail out a bank or itself

Example 2:

Lets say we have a 40hr work week. You are paid 80,000.

If the government enacts a 20 hour work week. You will not get paid 80,000. It is EXACTLY the same principle as above.

This is why, France, among many countries has a rapidly falling standard of living at the AVERAGE level.

Anyway, next topic.....

No offense, but you guys (except the obvious) have the 'free market' thing wrong. And thats normal, many people do.

The main misconception is that 'free' means mayhem, i can do whatever i want et etc. NO, it doesnt.

What 'free' in free market means - is 'FREE to ASSOCIATE'. That means that TWO parties can come together and AGREE (Free from self, or third party coersion - like government). The foundation of a free market is a foundation of LAW. Without LAW none of this would work - yes this is where contract law comes in. Now Im taking 'real law', not the pussy foot, heads you win , tails I lose kind. This law means that if either of us break a CONTRACT we agreed to freely, then there are consequences. Corporate and other law today is a complete JOKE. Laws shouldnt be complicated by lawyers. They should be simple and not grey. In our system, man with the most money and connections wins. In a free market, that is not the way it is supposed to be because the contract law would be a few pages long and written in kindergarten language - maybe even pictoral

The elitist class are NOT pro free markets. This is the reason why most countries in the Western World are 'weak' socialist at the minimum!!! They do not like freedom because it undermines the way the world is supposed to revolve by their laws.

Backtoch is right, we do not have a free market. In a free market we would have a choice about many things in life i.e. I want to cash out my pensions NOW.

People should lay off the insults on this thread. Stop using the word fascist, its the stuff of the uneducated and truly kindergarten material. But I do understand that debates can get heated.
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  #114  
Old 18.12.2011, 16:39
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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This thread here has really turned out into a total food fight, it will go nowhere.

Oseuco you wanted your question to the entitlements answered, so i will answer it.

First of all, you make the mistake thinking that the things listed above are 'free', they are not. Everything that appears to come free has a price. I will list what im trying to say below.

1. Firstly, all the entitlements listed above have a monetary value. This means they are worth something. They have a defined , CHF, $ value.

2. All resources are limited. Government laws cannot create something for nothing. Therefore a wage pool for example, allocated in a business is basically fixed i.e there is a budget.

So what am I trying to say.......

3. When the government enacts a law for the entitlements as listed above - Many people think these are ADDED to pay. THEY ARE NOT. These entitlements are actually SUBTRACTED from the existing wage pool i.e. entitlement instead of cash. Remember that the wage pool is limited and divided among the existing employees.

4. This means that if a worker is earning 80,000 + 4 weeks holiday. If the government comes along and says vote for us and we will give 8 weeks holiday (even better lets have 15 weeks ). What will happen is that you WILL NOT get 80,000 and 8 weeks holiday. You will get 8 weeks holiday and LESS than 80,000.

5. In practice you cannot see this because it takes time to filter through. In time this will be seen as either LOWER wages or FEWER employees. No-one will have their pay instantly slashed, because it takes time to work through the system.

6. The things above are ONE of the many reasons the Western world is today uncompetitive, inflexible and suffers a FALLING standard of living - Yes there are many more however.

Your question was 'do you want these entitlements?'. Yes I do, I have ALREADY PAID for them with my labour. BUT, I would rather have a choice if I want them as CASH or as above. For example, I dont want a pension, I want it is cash today before the government steals it to bail out a bank or itself

Example 2:

Lets say we have a 40hr work week. You are paid 80,000.

If the government enacts a 20 hour work week. You will not get paid 80,000. It is EXACTLY the same principle as above.

This is why, France, among many countries has a rapidly falling standard of living at the AVERAGE level.

Anyway, next topic.....

No offense, but you guys (except the obvious) have the 'free market' thing wrong. And thats normal, many people do.

The main misconception is that 'free' means mayhem, i can do whatever i want et etc. NO, it doesnt.

What 'free' in free market means - is 'FREE to ASSOCIATE'. That means that TWO parties can come together and AGREE (Free from self, or third party coersion - like government). The foundation of a free market is a foundation of LAW. Without LAW none of this would work - yes this is where contract law comes in. Now Im taking 'real law', not the pussy foot, heads you win , tails I lose kind. This law means that if either of us break a CONTRACT we agreed to freely, then there are consequences. Corporate and other law today is a complete JOKE. Laws shouldnt be complicated by lawyers. They should be simple and not grey. In our system, man with the most money and connections wins. In a free market, that is not the way it is supposed to be because the contract law would be a few pages long and written in kindergarten language - maybe even pictoral

The elitist class are NOT pro free markets. This is the reason why most countries in the Western World are 'weak' socialist at the minimum!!! They do not like freedom because it undermines the way the world is supposed to revolve by their laws.

Backtoch is right, we do not have a free market. In a free market we would have a choice about many things in life i.e. I want to cash out my pensions NOW.

People should lay off the insults on this thread. Stop using the word fascist, its the stuff of the uneducated and truly kindergarten material. But I do understand that debates can get heated.
then people shouldn't say that they are PRO "free market capitalism" if they don't mean that they are...quite simple...the truth is, "free market capitalism" (and communism) leads to the extremes...you can call it whatever you want...and to say that socialism disgusts you...well, I would say that person have no clue at all...perhaps maybe ignorant...
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Old 18.12.2011, 16:55
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Aspartame has been pulled off the Swiss market as a source of cancer.
Since when?

(I never use the stuff myself, so if it has been pulled off in the past years, I haven't noticed)

Tom
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Old 18.12.2011, 17:36
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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and to say that socialism disgusts you...well, I would say that person have no clue at all...perhaps maybe ignorant.
Just to be clear, you realise that I did not say that - that wasnt my post. Im only saying because you are using the word 'you'.

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then people shouldn't say that they are PRO "free market capitalism" if they don't mean that they are...quite simple...the truth is, "free market capitalism" (and communism) leads to the extremes...you can call it whatever you want.....
Im not sure what this may be, but I stand by my previous post. Im fine to leave it at that.
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  #117  
Old 19.12.2011, 12:07
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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then people shouldn't say that they are PRO "free market capitalism" if they don't mean that they are...quite simple...the truth is, "free market capitalism" (and communism) leads to the extremes...you can call it whatever you want...and to say that socialism disgusts you...well, I would say that person have no clue at all...perhaps maybe ignorant...

I am 100% pro free markets, mean it and stand by it. I disagree with you that a free market capitalist system creates extremes. I do believe though that an economy based on central economic planning results in extremes. If you have a free market the economy can balance itself, it's through market interference (subsidies, bailouts, etc.) that nonviable economic variables are allowed to exist and that is what leads to extremes. The problem with a free market discussion is that most people do not understand what a free market is. The fact that people blamed free markets for the collapse of the RE bubble and the stock market is a perfect indication of that. The non-existant free market only takes the blame as it allows the big players to push more regulations through - to their benefit.
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Old 19.12.2011, 12:28
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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Good example. Aspartame has been pulled off the Swiss market as a source of cancer. So in the US. Then Coke Zero came and it was sudden OK again. And then the first cancer cases. So Coke pullet it off the US market. But was still on sale in Mexico. Coke wrote: The Latinos have a different genetic structure then Caucasian (who "invented" this word BTW - Caucasian, the real one, a more brown then white).
Here in Europe I see Coke Zero everywhere, I see in at least 10 different products in Migros Aspartame, all of a sudden it is safe. But the safe Stevia had a long, long fight until spring 2011 (the missfunded study, that Stevia is carcinogenic is obsolete or do you eat 50kg each day?)

Or we change the safe reading on blood pressure and sudden a 200 Million market in Europe blows to a 2 billion market. But up to date we are not sure what its a safe level or even whats the cause. We just fight symptoms for good profit. Thats why we call it health industry - an industry in absurd um as they need sick people for profit!!!!

We are just a sick society. Money is everything
How about some evidence to back that up.
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  #119  
Old 19.12.2011, 12:43
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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The problem with a free market discussion is that most people do not understand what a free market is. The fact that people blamed free markets for the collapse of the RE bubble and the stock market is a perfect indication of that. The non-existant free market only takes the blame as it allows the big players to push more regulations through - to their benefit.
This is a bit like the socialism debate. People who defend socialism say the bad examples set in the Soviet Union and its allies were not real socialism, and if *real* socialism were allowed to come into being the world would be perfect with dancing singing rainbows ever after.

You are saying exactly the same of the free market. You are discounting all examples of the free market's failings and saying the market wasn't really free. So basically you are demanding an impossible utopia and anything that is 90% or even 99% of that doesn't count and any failings thereof are due to the last 1%. Because there will never be a truly free market you can forever claim it isthe best of all posible systems without ever having to face up to empirical evidence that sugegsts otherwise.

There cannot be a free market without bailouts and other excesses because it is an inherent property of the free market that certain groups, corporatoins etc amass money, influence and power to the point that they start influencing and controlling the government to further their own ends. Only a strong and independent government can stand up and say no. The weak government that free market folks are advocating is a government that is too weak to have any balls. One of the reasons that econonomy today is in the state it is in is because the goverment has for too long been blindly jumping to the demands of corporations and banks.

Just as pure socialism is wrong, so is the pure market wrong. Extremes are always wrong. There is a middle way that combines the best of both. That is the world in which we live.

Last edited by amogles; 19.12.2011 at 13:06.
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  #120  
Old 19.12.2011, 12:48
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Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

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I am 100% pro free markets, mean it and stand by it. I disagree with you that a free market capitalist system creates extremes. I do believe though that an economy based on central economic planning results in extremes. If you have a free market the economy can balance itself, it's through market interference (subsidies, bailouts, etc.) that nonviable economic variables are allowed to exist and that is what leads to extremes. The problem with a free market discussion is that most people do not understand what a free market is. The fact that people blamed free markets for the collapse of the RE bubble and the stock market is a perfect indication of that. The non-existant free market only takes the blame as it allows the big players to push more regulations through - to their benefit.

Define "free market" please. Do you mean markets free of monopoly rents (seeking to attain allocative efficiency) or markets free of rules where actively seeking monopoly rents is, logically, the ultimate goal of the rational economic actor?
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