Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19.11.2011, 21:46
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Here in Neuchatel, we will soon have the opportunity to vote on a minimum wage being introduced.

Yes or No (and why)?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19.11.2011, 21:59
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: From one side of lake Zurich t
Posts: 6,353
Groaned at 42 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 6,448 Times in 2,964 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

That's a very interesting dilemma.

I have no idea what the consequences would be of introducing a minimum wage ? Will it hold wages low, reducing the ability of individuals to negotiate, will it ensure higher wages for people on the lowest rung ? Are people able to live on the minimum wage, given the high cost of living here. Would employers drop wages for basic staff to whatever minimum is set, or would they be more secure about employing new staff on the basic minimum, expanding the job market ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank swisspea for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 19.11.2011, 22:20
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

My questions exactly. For me, in principle it would be a big YES - but I want to think of any possible negative effect and make sure the brain is engaged, not just the heart.

If a 'YES' where would you set the minimum. I've heard 18CHF mentionned- this seems terribly low. Even here in my rural area in the sticks, my neighbour who is a cleaner wouldn't accept work for less than CHF25. How much does a cleaning person charge in Zurich or Geneva?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19.11.2011, 22:26
Mud's Avatar
Mud Mud is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Romandie
Posts: 2,551
Groaned at 26 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 5,004 Times in 1,827 Posts
Mud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

18/hour comes out to 3300/month; doesn't seem that low. Are there many jobs that pay less than that for full time work? I do tend to think that enforcing a minimum wage would push down average wages for unskilled jobs.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19.11.2011, 22:50
yasmina
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

It's a good question to ask and I'm interested to see what people have to say.

In some skilled professions, which require a 3 year apprenticeship, you don't get much more after 10+ years experience anyway. For some, they probably get that - depends on where you work.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 19.11.2011, 23:38
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Location is also an issue. 4000 is probably fine where you and I live Yasmina- with low rent prices, - but probably would be problematic for anyone living in Neuchatel or along the lake - and of course, almost impossible near Geneva and Zurich.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 20.11.2011, 00:08
marksmadsen's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 180
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 209 Times in 93 Posts
marksmadsen has a reputation beyond reputemarksmadsen has a reputation beyond reputemarksmadsen has a reputation beyond reputemarksmadsen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

The scientific approach would be to ask what the consequences have been, over a reasonable period (say 10 years), in places where minimum wages have been introduced.

My reading of the available evidence is that in places/regions/countries where there is a minimum wage, standards of living and social provision are higher.

Cause or effect? Hard to say.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marksmadsen for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 20.11.2011, 00:16
Sky's Avatar
Sky Sky is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere special far away
Posts: 4,317
Groaned at 67 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 7,164 Times in 2,651 Posts
Sky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
View Post
The scientific approach would be to ask what the consequences have been, over a reasonable period (say 10 years), in places where minimum wages have been introduced.

My reading of the available evidence is that in places/regions/countries where there is a minimum wage, standards of living and social provision are higher.

Cause or effect? Hard to say.
It's too early.. to be able to evaluate the consequences over a period, we would need enough years and history. The implementation of "les accords bilatéraux" is still too recent and they have had a serious impact on employment in Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Sky for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 20.11.2011, 00:37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

When in the UK last week I listened to a programme on Radio 4 on the effect of legislation for equality for women in the work place. One woman in the debate was adamant that this legislation has made things much worse,as small businesses would rather not employ women rather than take the risk of her getting pregnant. I was really shocked by her anti stance, and yet, she made a good point.

And yet - comes a time when a 'principle' is right- even if it causes some issues and negative effects too.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 20.11.2011, 01:14
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: olten
Posts: 17
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 79 Times in 8 Posts
kuttapai is considered knowledgeablekuttapai is considered knowledgeablekuttapai is considered knowledgeable
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

I was going to type a big YES ...then I read the below article in Wiki...now not really sure..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20.11.2011, 01:21
yasmina
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
Location is also an issue. 4000 is probably fine where you and I live Yasmina- with low rent prices, - but probably would be problematic for anyone living in Neuchatel or along the lake - and of course, almost impossible near Geneva and Zurich.
Well, actually the place I had in mind is in Neuchatel centre, I think most that work there live around the lake. It's not just there, it's the same wages in Bienne too.
It seems like a cheap option to live up here, but really, it doesn't work out any cheaper when you take into a cost the fuel/ train fare for travelling to the nearby cities for work, never mind the time it takes!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 20.11.2011, 02:55
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
Here in Neuchatel, we will soon have the opportunity to vote on a minimum wage being introduced.

Yes or No (and why)?
I would (and will) vote yes in favour of a minimum wage. It not only is necessary in order to limit exploitation, it also is necessary to block "employers" from exploiting imported personnel (as is a problem in the UAE for example)
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 20.11.2011, 13:19
Mark75's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: by the lake (either one)
Posts: 2,510
Groaned at 45 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 3,136 Times in 1,363 Posts
Mark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

At first look, a minimum wage sounds nice and fair and good.

Unfortunately there are some rather nasty side effects:
  • A minimum wage reinforces the already existing trend of making unskilled/low skilled jobs more and more obsolete, driving more unskilled people out of the workforce.
  • It also tends to drive those kind of work/jobs into the black market.
  • Enforcement will need additional bureaucracy, like we hadn't way too much of that already.
  • It will drive the IMHO unsustainably high price level in Switzerland even further up.
Of course, a lot will depend on how high the minimum wage is supposed to be, but since some trade unions are asking for a minimum of CHF 4'000 per month, the side effects would be pretty strong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mark75 for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 20.11.2011, 15:33
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,866
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

I was unemployed for 3 years from age 61 to age 64. I finally got a job at Swisscom from age 64 to age 66. From the age of 63 to 64 I had no unemployment pay and I had to ask for social security.

I moved to a small fllat and I had no car. I lived in Avenches, canton Vaud, and was given a total of CHF 1'700 per month (Tax free, no pensions contributed, nothing extra) This works out to about CHF 10 per hour, for sitting at home.

So I would suggest that adding on some for travel expenses, health insurance, unemployment insurance, AHV, income taxes etc, and the result of CHF 16 per hour is not enabling anyone to live in any luxury.

If there is no minimum wage the poor worker can claim a top up at the social. But then why should the local tax payers support a local businessman whom is too mean to pay a living wage? If he cannot run his business at a profit, and pay decent wages, he should stop.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Sbrinz for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 20.11.2011, 16:15
marksmadsen's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 180
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 209 Times in 93 Posts
marksmadsen has a reputation beyond reputemarksmadsen has a reputation beyond reputemarksmadsen has a reputation beyond reputemarksmadsen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
View Post
I was going to type a big YES ...then I read the below article in Wiki...now not really sure..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage
Regardless of the pros or cons, if you base your opinion on the cited entry in WP, then you have to be in favour of the minimum wage. That page says that even economists share a favourable consensus!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 20.11.2011, 17:41
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dättlikon
Posts: 94
Groaned at 3 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 72 Times in 36 Posts
DavidPesenti has earned some respectDavidPesenti has earned some respect
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
View Post
...but since some trade unions are asking for a minimum of CHF 4'000 per month, the side effects would be pretty strong.
Any business that still operates in Switzerland with unskilled wage costs being a considerable burden on their books should have left already!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 20.11.2011, 17:53
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dättlikon
Posts: 94
Groaned at 3 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 72 Times in 36 Posts
DavidPesenti has earned some respectDavidPesenti has earned some respect
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
View Post

If there is no minimum wage the poor worker can claim a top up at the social. But then why should the local tax payers support a local businessman whom is too mean to pay a living wage? If he cannot run his business at a profit, and pay decent wages, he should stop.
Agreed! in the end society pays!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 20.11.2011, 20:55
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
View Post
If he cannot run his business at a profit, and pay decent wages, he should stop.
So the government will have to pay unemployment pay or social help for the full salary rather than just a top up, I don't think that represents value for money for the taxpayer.

As it is in CH, if I company cant pay salaries , then shorter working hours is prefered to unemployment, the RAV pick up the shortfall.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 21.11.2011, 12:16
Lex's Avatar
Lex Lex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zug
Posts: 312
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 257 Times in 138 Posts
Lex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

I already wrote up a little summary on why minimum wage is bad, why it increases unemployment and why pro minimum wage groups cant get their heads around the fact that Switzerland has no minimum wage yet pays the highest salaries. For some reason or another the thread has been completely taken down. Any of the moderators know why this was the case?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Lex for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 21.11.2011, 13:41
Lex's Avatar
Lex Lex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zug
Posts: 312
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 257 Times in 138 Posts
Lex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote on minimum wage- what would you do?

Quote:
View Post
If there is no minimum wage the poor worker can claim a top up at the social. But then why should the local tax payers support a local businessman whom is too mean to pay a living wage? If he cannot run his business at a profit, and pay decent wages, he should stop.
So by your logic being on welfare is better than working in a low pay job?

Minimum wage will push more people on social security because it will price out workers that would normally be worth less than what the minimum wage pays (i.e. too old, disabled and disadvantaged). There is nothing wrong with a person who is disabled asking to be paid less than a person who gets minimum wage. The disabled person is entitled to a job as much as anyone else, provided they have some form of voluntary advantage over an able bodied person. At a minimum wage of 22 francs per hour the disabled person cannot be priced at that amount if an able bodied person is priced at that also. That means that in a 100% of cases that are not charities, the disabled person will never have the opportunity to work for pay. The same goes for people who are too old i.e. 70 years old. A 70 years old might be happy to be paid a small amount just to get out of the house and out of the wife's hair. With a minimum wage he can forget it, no one will hire him at a price they pay anyone else. Because there are more risks and costs associated with hiring someone that is 'too old', the minimum wage will price these people out of the market. The minimum wage is incredibly discriminatory, it prices out everyone who is not worth the minimum wage and thats usually the forgotten members of our society.

A problem Switzerland often faces is how hard it is for older workers to find work and/or re enter the workforce. Well thats because of the extra costs associated with hiring older workers. Thats the fault of government creating the extra and unnecessary insurance costs, not business. Older workers are priced out of the market, because they are not on an equal playing field as it is being distorted by bureaucrats saying that business should pay more insurance for these workers.

Therefore if minimum wage prices certain people out of the workforce, than more people drift towards welfare, This in turn then causes more pressure on existing taxes which means more and additional costs on business and workers. Its a terrible cycle that ends where the Eurozone and Western world are right now. If minimum wage were the holy grail that it is made up to be, then Switzerland would not have the highest living standards in the world as well as pay some of the highest salaries.

If I may ask, what happened to your 'savings for a rainy day'? Savings are what is supposed to supplement social security. I mean you have had the opportunity to work for 45 years!. Or am I missing something?

Quote:
View Post
If he cannot run his business at a profit, and pay decent wages, he should stop.
I would imagine with such a comment that you have never run a business in your life. Many businesses struggle out there and many will fail completely. There is no such thing as a decent wage. Wages should be priced by the market without interference, because thats the only way a price or wage can be calculated. You cannot calculate a wage based on what some person sitting in an office in the capital says. A businesses wage costs isnt just a function of the cost of labour (in a perfect world it would be and we should all wish it was so!) it is also payroll costs, regulatory costs, social security, insurance etc etc. Thats what makes employing people expensive. I promise you, there are many businesses out there that would prefer to pay those inputs to the worker instead of the government, lawyers and insurance companies. Unfortunately those costs have to come out of somebody's pocket and often it is shared one way or another between the customer, employees and business owner.

You should note that almost all startups lose money in the first few years while they build up to pay for their initially start up costs. So profitabililty initially is irrelevant, as for most it is only a dream.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Lex for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What would you do if your wife plans to leave you... Treverus Family matters/health 93 25.10.2010 22:21
What Would You Do? jonip Complaints corner 29 09.05.2010 22:26
what is the minimum wage/median wage in CH Jaro Employment 1 16.09.2009 15:05
What would you do? turtonjs Daily life 33 22.05.2008 13:33
What would you do if you could prove a major company had supplied your details..... marko167 Complaints corner 16 23.04.2008 21:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0