Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 23.11.2011, 23:26
jrspet's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Quaint Wädenswil, Zürich, CH
Posts: 8,131
Groaned at 27 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 7,036 Times in 3,912 Posts
jrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

I presume changes will be made to VINTA.

VINTA in FR

VINTA in IT
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 24.11.2011, 09:16
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,516
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,650 Times in 18,688 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
I want to see you test in Rumantsch.
Don't have to, I'm SWISS!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 24.11.2011, 18:30
ARC_VD's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Geneva
Posts: 218
Groaned at 63 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 161 Times in 73 Posts
ARC_VD has earned the respect of manyARC_VD has earned the respect of manyARC_VD has earned the respect of many
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
Est-ce à dire que l'Englishforum sera proscrit comme une sous-culture néfaste?
Well, you wouldn't pass the french test



Seriously, I think it's a great idea. It's obvious it's hard to integrate if you don't speak the language. Sure, you can still live in Switzerland and enjoy a good social life by making a circle of friends of people who speak any of the languages you speak, but that's not integration for obvious reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 24.11.2011, 18:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: basel
Posts: 2,358
Groaned at 24 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,426 Times in 1,164 Posts
biff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
Employers will also be expected to contribute by aiding the integration process of their non-Swiss staff and their families.

Swissinfo EN
I like that.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 24.11.2011, 18:46
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Agree ARC, and I am NOT in any way, shape, or form, ANTI foreigner. It just makes sense to learn the language of a country (in this case part of country) you choose to live in. Irrespective of who and where, class, EU or non, etc.

Integration is a two way thing and takes effort and goodwill from both sides, host and guest.

Last edited by Odile; 24.11.2011 at 19:29.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 24.11.2011, 19:34
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
Agree ARC, and I am NOT in any way, shape, or form, ANTI foreigner. It just makes sense to learn the language of a country (in this case part of country) you choose to live in. Irrespective of who and where, class, EU or non, etc.
For argument's sake, really, just for argument's sake:

Irrespectively of... I struggle with that when I am with you all on EF. I don't at all in my real life. Frankly, it's what I've done. Unplanned landing in Amsterdam => learnt Dutch. Otherwise, I always spoke the language before.

But...

...the argument would mean that the threads on EF like "Where do I find an English speaking pediatrician" (implying that the expectation that there are English speaking everything is totally all right) would only be acceptable if it is also accepted that there should be Albanian speaking ones, Farsi speaking, Portuguese speaking etc. And not only the pediatricians judging by the threads on EF. Why not, but for that would be a very strong statement, especially on this forum.

I am not sure many people here would agree to consider English and any other language on an equal level, because it is taken as a fact that the World language is English and the others aren't.

I insist: I am not talking about myself, as I have followed the local language learning policy the one time I didn't speak it and when I was looking into going to Iceland, it was clear that Icelandic was part of the deal. It just didn't happen, so we'll never know if I would have managed.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 24.11.2011, 19:49
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

You might not have managed - but fact is, you would have tried hard and given it your best shot (and I am sure succeeded)

Of course English is the numero uno international language- it would be daft to pretend otherwise. No objection to that at all. I don't see that it makes much difference about the need for any guest in any country, to make the effort and be seen and heard to do so. Just simple respect and courtesy + common sense. Not talking about the subjunctive backwards here - just simple basic communication.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 24.11.2011, 19:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
- just simple basic communication.
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Yes, but it's exactly the argument, albeit only pragmatic and very convenient, that you don't achieve any gain of communication when communicating at basic level in the local language as the local population does exactly that in English anyway.
The only pleasure of showing respect does not seem to move many people to learn the local language. The ones getting at it are the ones with a need of more than basic communication, and they might as well be pragmatic all the way through and stick to English rather than investing huge time and effort over years for a result close to what you get in English in the first place in the professional environment and in the health system.

The speakers of other languages than English have to learn the local lingo for everything. The tolerance for a Serb only family will be far lower than for an English only family... among EF members here. When Swiss (or Icelanders for that matter), consider English just as any other language, the English speakers don't understand that. Will the English speakers here prove me wrong? Please do.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 24.11.2011, 22:40
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Switzerland, Aargau
Posts: 138
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 45 Times in 29 Posts
Caribeangeorge has made some interesting contributions
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
Not allowed by the EU bi-lateral agreements!
Fact: Austria and Germany do!
To receive your residence paper, you need to make language test, IF you not from a German speaking background.

Quote:
View Post
Playing the devil's advocate here
So, then I will challenge you:
I am married to a Russian, 2 kids together. As we lived so far always outside CH, our family language is English (it's shifting now slightly).
When we returned in 2010 to Switzerland, I had to prove to the "Amt für Migration" that, as having not a job in time of moving, that I have enough financial funds to sustain a familiy, at the time, my 100'000 USD where just enough (today not anymore!) to satisfy them. Original sound from the officer: "we have to make sure we don't let welfare cases into Switzerland"

WTF!

So, question: theoretically, if I would not have enough money (or - as in this case she would not speak German/English). What will be the answer:
A legal compulsion of divorce as the Nazis did with Arian/Jewish marriages? What with the kids? Foster home, free for adoption? Or do I have to hire a nanny so we can deport my wife (as in: having no money)?
Two years before returning to CH, I asked the Embassy and the Migration on what VISA my wife should travel to Switzerland. As non-resident Swiss Citizen I have no rights to apply for a family-reunion visa (I never understood why I need a reunion in first place as we are together). So in understanding of all authorities we made a tourist visa (tourist - as wife of Swiss citizen, what a joke in fact).
Long story short: In Zug the "Einwohnerkontrolle" refused to register her and without registration no B-Permit. I should leave my family behind, get first residency here and the let my family follow me. I mean, hello - I am Swiss, my children are Swiss!!!

Due her complication in the pregnancy we moved then to Luzern, and voila, the registration was no issue anymore. But now the "Amt für Migration" wanted to deport her. Desperately!! As with 8 month pregnancy, no airline would board her anymore, the balloon could pop anytime! Then they figured out that there is a 3 days train trip to Moscow. Yea, right, with 8 month the right thing to do! Finally the doctors ended this dispute, they declared her as un-movable. Immigration Officer to me:"Well, you now off the hook, you made your timing right" Actually in German its more harsh: "Das haben Sie aber schlau eingefädelt, das mit der Schwangerschaft"!

He was just inches away to be the front page headline in Blick!

By Schengen law, my wife actually don't require a visa AT ALL, as long she is travelling togheter with me! By Schengen law, the right of family for members of Schengen states is above everything else.

So I wonder, how Switzerland will implement these new laws...

Maybe the same way as per today, my wife has to go in line with Asylum seekers! (or she should kill me, as mother of two Swiss kids she will get as widow the Swiss passport immediately! psst, don't tell her... )
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Caribeangeorge for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 24.11.2011, 23:27
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Maybe I'm missing something, but this isn't new, is it? My non-EU wife had to prove a level of basic German (A2 i think?) within 12 months of being granted her permit to stay here or risk losing it
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 24.11.2011, 23:38
nickatbasel's Avatar
Mod, Chips and Mushy Peas
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 5,382
Groaned at 165 Times in 103 Posts
Thanked 8,569 Times in 3,177 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

A guest is somebody whom you invite into your home and entertain at no cost to them.

My stay in this country has been anything but free of charge if my latest tax declaration is anything to go by.

I don't disagree with the pragmatic part of learning the local language of where you are living. I do object to being labelled as a freeloader.

Cheers,
Nick

Quote:
I don't see that it makes much difference about the need for any guest in any country
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank nickatbasel for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 24.11.2011, 23:50
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,150
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,955 Times in 2,235 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
A guest is somebody whom you invite into your home and entertain at no cost to them.

My stay in this country has been anything but free of charge if my latest tax declaration is anything to go by.

I don't disagree with the pragmatic part of learning the local language of where you are living. I do object to being labelled as a freeloader.

Cheers,
Nick

hehehe, this happens quite often. I have a Swiss passport and speak fairly perfect Swiss-German, and I'm still considered my many (family included) to be a guest here :P
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 25.11.2011, 00:47
sva's Avatar
sva sva is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: V/G, FR
Posts: 1,079
Groaned at 19 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 827 Times in 411 Posts
sva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

"Sommaruga said that the new act will be quite specific. It will mention, for example, that speeding motorists, unemployed people who become dependent on welfare, and people who do not respect the equal rights of men and women might see an extension of their residence permit denied." - http://www.thelocal.ch/1857/20111124/

Goes a long way in 'integration' (as opposed to discrimination)
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 25.11.2011, 00:49
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Yes, but it's exactly the argument, albeit only pragmatic and very convenient, that you don't achieve any gain of communication when communicating at basic level in the local language as the local population does exactly that in English anyway.
The only pleasure of showing respect does not seem to move many people to learn the local language. The ones getting at it are the ones with a need of more than basic communication, and they might as well be pragmatic all the way through and stick to English rather than investing huge time and effort over years for a result close to what you get in English in the first place in the professional environment and in the health system.

The speakers of other languages than English have to learn the local lingo for everything. The tolerance for a Serb only family will be far lower than for an English only family... among EF members here. When Swiss (or Icelanders for that matter), consider English just as any other language, the English speakers don't understand that. Will the English speakers here prove me wrong? Please do.
Sorry, but immigrants from Britain, USA, Australia, Germany and France are simply NOT relevant in this regard. They are economically important, but numerically almost irrelevant, beside being generally well educated and while doing in understatement, fairly often have a respectable knowledge of the local language(s). The topic of the new programs, regulations and laws are underprivileged, badly educated, poor immigrants from Mediterranean countries (let's be clear that lots of Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and Greek immigrants fall under the "Anglo" category !! ) and from Africa (wider Africa I mean). It in those cases of course depends. A Senegalese who already before coming to Switzerland spoke two or three Senegalese languages plus French will also be able to master German and Italian (incl dialects) very swiftly, while an immigrant from rural Niger who only speaks Tuareg and a bit of Berber and a bit of Arabic, may find the challenge heavy and needs support. A chap from Istanbul who besides Turkish already speaks a bit of German and English plus either Italian or Arabic will master the "Chuchichäschtli" challenge without much ado, while his countryman from rural Anatolia will find the task enormous. The chap from Tunis or Cairo or Alexandria who already beside Arabic speaks either French or English or both plus possibly one or two other languages will be quite well up even with the local dialect in no time, while the countrymen from provincial rural areas may feel really "overloaded" and need help rather urgently. The emphasis of Mrs Sommaruga was clearly on the need to help those "disadvantaged" people, even if exactly them may have to be pressurized a bit to their own midterm and longterm advantage.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
This user groans at Wollishofener for this post:
  #35  
Old 25.11.2011, 10:20
SamWeiseVielleicht's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bern
Posts: 725
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 893 Times in 397 Posts
SamWeiseVielleicht has a reputation beyond reputeSamWeiseVielleicht has a reputation beyond reputeSamWeiseVielleicht has a reputation beyond reputeSamWeiseVielleicht has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
"Sommaruga said that the new act will be quite specific. It will mention, for example, that speeding motorists, unemployed people who become dependent on welfare, and people who do not respect the equal rights of men and women might see an extension of their residence permit denied." - http://www.thelocal.ch/1857/20111124/

Goes a long way in 'integration' (as opposed to discrimination)
The speeding part is a bad translation: What she meant was "Raser", not "Schnellfahrer". The former means somebody who is speeding in a wreckless way (like two drivers racing each other at 150 km/h in a village) while the latter means somebody was "just" speeding (like driving 95 in a 80 zone).
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank SamWeiseVielleicht for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 25.11.2011, 11:15
Amaras's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Armenia
Posts: 128
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts
Amaras has earned some respectAmaras has earned some respect
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post

In the case of foreigners living in the country applying for residency permits for family members who live outside the European Union, the relatives would also have to prove they can speak German, French or Italian, or enrol in a language course to learn one.

Swissinfo EN
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/82373/section/9

Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 25.11.2011, 11:17
sva's Avatar
sva sva is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: V/G, FR
Posts: 1,079
Groaned at 19 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 827 Times in 411 Posts
sva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

The point is, why should a specific group be suject to a 'different' set of laws. it has a misuse potential too in the hands of 'disgruntled' locals.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 25.11.2011, 12:21
ARC_VD's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Geneva
Posts: 218
Groaned at 63 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 161 Times in 73 Posts
ARC_VD has earned the respect of manyARC_VD has earned the respect of manyARC_VD has earned the respect of many
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, but immigrants from Britain, USA, Australia, Germany and France are simply NOT relevant in this regard. They are economically important, but numerically almost irrelevant
That's false. Check the official statistics. Germans alone account for close to 15% of all immigrant population, they're the largest single nationality group right after italians, and before portuguese, with french being the fifth largest nationality, but still there are more french citizens in Switzerland than the whole Africa added to together, or all America added together (and there are as many germans as twice the number of the addition of all african and american citizens).
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 25.11.2011, 14:45
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DK - previously Zug
Posts: 3,321
Groaned at 168 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 6,707 Times in 2,237 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
That's false. Check the official statistics. Germans alone account for close to 15% of all immigrant population, they're the largest single nationality group right after italians, and before portuguese, with french being the fifth largest nationality, but still there are more french citizens in Switzerland than the whole Africa added to together, or all America added together (and there are as many germans as twice the number of the addition of all african and american citizens).
Regardless of their absolute quantity, it's typically not too hard for number 1, 2 or 5 in that list to pick up one of the local languages, so this legislation isn't really relevant to them.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 25.11.2011, 21:11
OSueco's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 317 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 1,265 Times in 624 Posts
OSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Quote:
View Post
The speeding part is a bad translation: What she meant was "Raser", not "Schnellfahrer". The former means somebody who is speeding in a wreckless way (like two drivers racing each other at 150 km/h in a village) while the latter means somebody was "just" speeding (like driving 95 in a 80 zone).
I wonder if it also will apply to the rich foreginers kids at the gold coast speeding with their ferrari's? Probably not... hypocrisy in action...
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Language and table manners, or Language Integration in Switzerland is Painful sonnyk Language corner 70 13.11.2011 23:08
AOZ integration language course tititita Language corner 3 05.07.2010 13:52
language integration courses juice99 Language corner 18 22.11.2009 20:58


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0