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  #41  
Old 26.11.2011, 01:46
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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That's false. Check the official statistics. Germans alone account for close to 15% of all immigrant population, they're the largest single nationality group right after italians, and before portuguese, with french being the fifth largest nationality, but still there are more french citizens in Switzerland than the whole Africa added to together, or all America added together (and there are as many germans as twice the number of the addition of all african and american citizens).
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Regardless of their absolute quantity, it's typically not too hard for number 1, 2 or 5 in that list to pick up one of the local languages, so this legislation isn't really relevant to them.
Those groups will always have an advantage because they can get ANY federal document translated into their native language. However, I do believe that an Italian living in Geneva, a French living in ZŘrich, and a German living in Lugano will still need to learn the local language.
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Old 26.11.2011, 02:04
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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That's false. Check the official statistics. Germans alone account for close to 15% of all immigrant population, they're the largest single nationality group right after italians, and before portuguese, with french being the fifth largest nationality, but still there are more french citizens in Switzerland than the whole Africa added to together, or all America added together (and there are as many germans as twice the number of the addition of all african and american citizens).
The Germans may even numerically be important, in theory at least, but in reality are irrelevant in regard to the topic as they
A) speak the Swiss majority language already
B) share they same culture
C) have similar traditions and customs

The French ? Their number also is heavy, but as most of them live in the Romandie are irrelevant in regard to the topic, for the same reason as the Germans.

I can absolutely guarantee that neither Mrs Sommaruga nor anyone else in this regard did have Germans or French in their mind
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  #43  
Old 26.11.2011, 03:17
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Fact: Austria and Germany do!
To receive your residence paper, you need to make language test, IF you not from a German speaking background.
Fact: BULLSHIT!

I coincidentally went to the German embassy yesterday to get my wife a Schengen visa and thanks to the ultra fast speed they work there had some time reading the infos on the wall:

Yes, you need to speak German at level A1 if you want to immigrate.

Unless you:
- are from an EU country as we have the freedom of movement and anyone from Portugal to the Russian border can freely move within the Schengen zone.
- you have an university degree and "are likely to find employment without speaking German".

I know that there are many non-EU natives on this forum living in Switzerland. How many did get by now a Swiss work permit without being highly educated and able to perform a job for which an employer wasn't able to find a local or EU national?

I am a very liberal and "left" person, but I find these rules finally a decent attempt on the German side to limit "negative" immigration. The country needs skilled workers and for example right now tries to attract unemployed Greeks. But in the past two decades a huge amount of immigration was low to non-educated people being attracted to the social insurance system...
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  #44  
Old 26.11.2011, 03:24
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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I find these rules finally a decent attempt on the German side to limit "negative" immigration.
I believe the word you are looking for is "emigration."
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  #45  
Old 26.11.2011, 06:09
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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I believe the word you are looking for is "emigration."
No it isn't. Immigration. People coming to Germany - but the sort of immigrants that do not help the country. For decades did Millions of Turks immigrate. The first generation came as workers and were more than welcome. From then on they went home to get married and brought more and more families with no education, language skill or any chance to make a living on their own - who all ended up to get paid by the social system financed by the German tax payer. Given the role of the women in traditional working class Turkish families did some live their entire lives in Germany without speaking the local language AT ALL.

Just to make it clear: I have no problem at all with Turks, I love the country and worked with some really smart ones. But the ones immigrating to Germany en masse are usually the lower end of the Turkish society who finds it awesome that the German government pays them a living simply based on the fact that they have kids... and yes, I know what I am talking about since I lived in a "bad" part of a large German city where a supermarket the size of a large Coop had vegetable lables in Turkish (ONLY, no German), speaker announcements for special offers in Turkish... and the area was full with plenty of unemployed young low educated males trying to sell drugs.

So before anyone from his armchair on the balcony of the gold coast appartment comments on it: Forcing immigrants to learn a language filters out the worst. It is a self defence against exploding social costs.
It's not targeted against high educated expats at all.
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  #46  
Old 26.11.2011, 08:28
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Just to make it clear: I have no problem at all with Turks, I love the country and worked with some really smart ones.
Always entertaining to see a poorly disguised racism.

In the UK, the equivalent is "some of my best friends are black/gay/Indian, BUT ...".
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  #47  
Old 26.11.2011, 09:50
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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No it isn't. Immigration. People coming to Germany - but the sort of immigrants that do not help the country. For decades did Millions of Turks immigrate. The first generation came as workers and were more than welcome. From then on they went home to get married and brought more and more families with no education, language skill or any chance to make a living on their own - who all ended up to get paid by the social system financed by the German tax payer. Given the role of the women in traditional working class Turkish families did some live their entire lives in Germany without speaking the local language AT ALL.

Just to make it clear: I have no problem at all with Turks, I love the country and worked with some really smart ones. But the ones immigrating to Germany en masse are usually the lower end of the Turkish society who finds it awesome that the German government pays them a living simply based on the fact that they have kids... and yes, I know what I am talking about since I lived in a "bad" part of a large German city where a supermarket the size of a large Coop had vegetable lables in Turkish (ONLY, no German), speaker announcements for special offers in Turkish... and the area was full with plenty of unemployed young low educated males trying to sell drugs.

So before anyone from his armchair on the balcony of the gold coast appartment comments on it: Forcing immigrants to learn a language filters out the worst. It is a self defence against exploding social costs.
It's not targeted against high educated expats at all.
...sounds like Germany is worse than here when it comes to integration!
If I was turkish I would be very upset!
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Old 26.11.2011, 10:47
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Always entertaining to see a poorly disguised racism.

In the UK, the equivalent is "some of my best friends are black/gay/Indian, BUT ...".
No it┤s not for several good reasons:
- UK perceptions won't help you understand Germany... or New Guinea.
- The experience related by Treverus is part of daily life in large cities (I don't know Treverus' region, northern Ruhr if I remember right, but I know northern cities) because there is no real ghettos where Germans and Turks spend their lives avoiding each other, they may not communicate with each other (real language integration issue like Treverus said) but they see each other every day. Poor Germans live the same places poor anyotherpeople live.They are together in all kinds of proportions and this is why people have experiences like the one related above. If Turks had ghettos, nobody would notice the vegetable labelling in the first place. In Skt Georg, just behing the Hamburg main station, you do sometimes have to ask for translation from Turkish to German too, but the shop is full of Germans all the time.
- If you really want to relate it to the UK, please teach me everything you know about ethnic ghettoization and social-urban mixity. I am eager to learn.
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  #49  
Old 26.11.2011, 11:21
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Always entertaining to see a poorly disguised racism.

In the UK, the equivalent is "some of my best friends are black/gay/Indian, BUT ...".
There is no but.

It doesn't even matter at all that they are Turkish as we have the same statistics on Russian immigrants or the Balkans: If your parents are educated and value education your chances to get educated and have a good job is much higher. According to some statistics is it 14 times higher in German cities. So if you happen to be the kid of a Turkish engineer, you'll be fine. But the reality is simply different:
Are Turkish in any way less educated than Germans? Don't know the statistic, but I'd guess that the average Turk in Turkey enjoyed about the same level of education than any European. Cause Turkey is a pretty developed country outperforming large parts of the EU. But it is a country with huge differences from cosmopolitan cities to the most backward rural communities one can imagine. I am not making it up that most immigrants in Germany are from the very rural parts of Anatolia, that is simply a fact. And that is the cause of the problem from the education to cultural issues. My mom was teaching some girls who were forced to go summer vacation back home and there forced into arranged marriages. You won't see that in Istanbul, only in the low educated parts of the country. Back then did the new husbands and their families easily get residence permits for Germany based on the marriage... that's in itself pretty bad, but things turned worse when the youngest sister decided to not play along but run away from home. But hey, let's just keep things easy and call me a racist.

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...sounds like Germany is worse than here when it comes to integration!
If I was turkish I would be very upset!
Yes, it is. Basically because the politicians fought for decades weather immigration is necessary or not (it's a simple numbers game to know it is...). What they should have done is to do the same most other countries do: Yes, discriminate with simple and clear rules who is allowed to come and who not. Every country has the right to decide who they let in and who not. Every country should compete on the people that help the society and on the other hand protect it's society from people that will be nothing but problems and costs.

All Turkish I have met in my life are fully aware of the situation in Germany as well as back home. The ones I know in Turkey do not exactly miss the part of society that left. Mr Erdogan on the other hand does so very much as they are exactly the part of society that votes for him. That's why he manages to fill football stadiums when he visits Germany and tells his fellow countrymen to not intergrate and not forget where they "really belong"...

I am not saying that integration is easy, but it isn't a one-way street either. It is not only a country that makes it easier or harder, it is equally the immigrant himself who is more or less interested in doing so. I know this is probably a political taboo but in Germany do several large immigrant communities simply live in parallel worlds: If you can live for decades in the country without learning the language (because you don't need to as you live in an all Turkish or all Russian environment), how could you take part in public life beyond your own community? How could you possibly do anything close to "integration"?
Language is the key and introducing it as a requirement is in my eyes absolutely right.

Last edited by Treverus; 26.11.2011 at 11:39.
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Old 26.11.2011, 12:24
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

Should it make a difference though, whether you are poor or rich, whether you have a good job and pay taxes or not? That is a point I've been trying to make for a long time.

Talk about being a 'guest' in someones home. We have loads of guests here since we've moved to CH, from all over the world, but mainly the UK. We are very lucky - our guests are extremely considerate and thoughtful. So they bring some goodies over if they are coming by car, they muck in, help out- and every few days say something like 'let's go out to a restaurant, our shout' or 'tomorrow you put your feet up - we'll go shopping and go us all a meal' - and if we've driven them around all over the country - when we stop to fill-up the tank, they rush out to the till and pay for one tankfull. Of course we know who's who- my best friend and family from the UK are not in a good financial position at the mo, so we will make sure when they come again in Feb with the kids, that we'll accept the offer for cooking a couple of simple meals - but not financially. Normal. And it's great- and they are so welcome to return. If they just arrived empty handed and sat there expecting us to entertain them, cook, etc, etc- we would feel differently.

When I first went to the UK I was a guest. I worked, didn't pay much tax as I was paid tiddlywinks. I learnt the language, made friends, got stuck in. And after a few years I became British and took full and active part.
I was no longer a guest, I became part of. Thanks to the efforts of those around me, and yes, thanks to my efforts with the language, culture, history, etc. It really does take 2 to tango. Rich or poor, employed or not, educated or not, paying loads of taxes or not, having a job in a shortage area or not, etc. Imagine an Iranian heart surgeon saying to this patients in the UK, sorry you'll have to speak Iranian because I am Number 1 Heart Surgeon in the world and your life depends on me and the UK patients would die without me, and btw I pay loads of taxes - so there?
Why does the amount of tax you pay here make any difference to having the respect, courtesy and common sense to learn the language?

Last edited by Odile; 26.11.2011 at 12:54.
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  #51  
Old 26.11.2011, 13:30
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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I find these rules finally a decent attempt on the German side to limit "negative" immigration.
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I believe the word you are looking for is "emigration."
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No it isn't. Immigration. People coming to Germany - but the sort of immigrants that do not help the country.
My mistake. I misinterpreted your original post about "negative immigration" to mean that Germany was trying to keep well-qualified people IN Germany rather than move to places like Switzerland. If I used my brain, I should have known better. Germany (or at least the eastern part) hasn't done anything like that since 1989.
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Old 26.11.2011, 13:36
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Should it make a difference though, whether you are poor or rich, whether you have a good job and pay taxes or not? That is a point I've been trying to make for a long time....
Why does the amount of tax you pay here make any difference to having the respect, courtesy and common sense to learn the language?
Agree. Could it be that foreigners with a good financial situation but no competence in our national languages face less difficulties to take part i.e. in (social) activities here, and hence can integrate the society more easily/actively than foreigners with no monney and no language skills?
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  #53  
Old 26.11.2011, 14:34
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Agree. Could it be that foreigners with a good financial situation but no competence in our national languages face less difficulties to take part i.e. in (social) activities here, and hence can integrate the society more easily/actively than foreigners with no monney and no language skills?
That brings you straight to the question if everyone has to be integrated. Probably not. I met a lot of people, especially through this forum that I would not describe as well integrated into Switzerland. But if they came her for a job and make their living for a couple of years before they move on, who cares? But the difference is the cash: If I come to Switzerland to make "a very long vacation" and can afford it, why not? But if I come there without money and without any skills that would make me employable - not even for jobs that do not require a formal education say in gastronomy or super market cashier... what's going to happen? I'll need money to survive. Should the Swiss tax payer have to pay for me, just because I want to come to your country?

And that is exactly what the German law is about: If you have a job offer and you are educated - nobody will care about the German course. If you lack both, they expect you to make a BEGINNERS COURSE (A1) to show your commitment. It should enable you to do at least some most basic jobs. So again: We are not talking about years of language studies, it is a pretty basic test.
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  #54  
Old 26.11.2011, 15:49
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

I wonder how much resentment there is for English-speaking expats there is amongst low-income immigrants that Wolli says this law is aimed at helping. These people aren't learning English because they aren't working at multi-national companies, and if they are---they're working as janitors. When they aren't busting their butts 48 hours or more a week, they're trying their best to learn the local language with what little free time they have. They don't have the luxury of being able to saying a few polite phrases in Swiss-German before hearing, "Don't worry---everyone here speaks Serbo-Croatian. How may I help you?" While many English speaking tourists and residents can get by in much of Switzerland without becoming completely fluent, these people are under pressure to REALLY learn the local language. I suspect even more than Swiss, these people resent the "free pass" that English gives to their fellow Auslanders.

Since I don't live in Switzerland, I may be completely wrong about this and it may be these people are learning German, French, or Italian much faster than the people on this board. But I won't know because these people don't post at the English forum. The members here whose native language isn't one of the Swiss native languages yet also know English well enough to communicate on this board usually have much better jobs or prospects than the people I'm talking about. So...am I off-base or not?
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Old 26.11.2011, 16:11
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

I didn't really get an answer yet about why this is new. My wife already had to pass a test last year to stay
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Old 26.11.2011, 18:20
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

And so did my sister in law from the Domenican Republic.
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Old 26.11.2011, 18:27
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Does this mean that the Englishforum will be outlawed as a nefarious subculture?

I'm sorry I meant to say:

Bedeutet dies, dass die Englishforum als ruchlosen Subkultur wird geńchtet werden?

Est-ce Ó dire que l'Englishforum sera proscrit comme une sous-culture nÚfaste?

Questo significa che il Englishforum sarÓ bandito come una sottocultura nefasto?
Are people using English on this forum? I thought it was some approximation called "Globish".
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Old 26.11.2011, 18:42
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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I didn't really get an answer yet about why this is new. My wife already had to pass a test last year to stay
You mean to get a C permit, isn’t it ?

New will be like this probably:

As of 15 March 2006, certain foreign nationals who require a temporary residence permit and who wish to settle in the Netherlands for a prolonged period will have to take a test, the civic integration examination ('basisexamen inburgering'), in their country of residence before they can submit their application for a temporary residence permit.

http://www.naarnederland.nl/en/

How will the Basic Civic Integration Examination change after 1 April 2011?
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Old 27.11.2011, 01:24
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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No it isn't. Immigration. People coming to Germany - but the sort of immigrants that do not help the country. For decades did Millions of Turks immigrate. The first generation came as workers and were more than welcome. From then on they went home to get married and brought more and more families with no education, language skill or any chance to make a living on their own - who all ended up to get paid by the social system financed by the German tax payer. Given the role of the women in traditional working class Turkish families did some live their entire lives in Germany without speaking the local language AT ALL.
-
Your portraying of those times is rosa-views. Reality is that West European countries including West Germany and Switzerland imported cheap labour from the Mediterranean, and NOT qualified labour. Nobody cared about their qualifications really as it was expected that they after a few years would go home. Workers were asked for but human beings arrived. That those workers went home for holidays is most normal indeed and that many of them as having been aged between 18 and 50 used the occasion to get married is equally normal. And that women in Mediteranean countries from Lisbon to Erzurum were by average badly educated and did not understand Western languages is obvious. Those women for obvious reasons only spoke their own language(s) and kept among their ethnic groups. MOST of those women however, in Germany, Switzerland and other European countries were NOT financed by the taxpayers, but by their husbands. The education of their offspring however indeed had to be paid by the taxpayer, but guaranteed a continued supply of people for a workforce which after about 1985 would have declined in numbers as the birthrates in Western Europe after 1965 virtually collapsed

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Just to make it clear: I have no problem at all with Turks, I love the country and worked with some really smart ones. But the ones immigrating to Germany en masse are usually the lower end of the Turkish society who finds it awesome that the German government pays them a living simply based on the fact that they have kids.
-
Again, what North-of-the-Alps-Western-Europe WANTED to import were the "lower end of society" or in other words people from underdeveloped rural regions. But to say that the reasons for them to come over here was that the "host countries" paid for their living "simply based on the fact that they have kids" is rubbish. They emigrated to NOAWE (specified above) simply because those countries offered
A) jobs & work
B) better wages
C) far better working conditions
D) better social healthcare, education and social services
---- It is not very nice of you that you like to get your garbage done away with but get grumpy about the fact that those who do it enjoy the better wages and services of your place

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.. and yes, I know what I am talking about since I lived in a "bad" part of a large German city where a supermarket the size of a large Coop had vegetable lables in Turkish (ONLY, no German), speaker announcements for special offers in Turkish...
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a supermarket who labels the stuff in Turkish is doing so as they suppose that people of Turkish origin are their customers and so simply are working up to the demands of a free market economy. If you as a shop have a majority of your customers from a certain ethnic group it is simply market oriented behaviour to lable goods in that language and make announcements in that language THIS is the MARKET

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and the area was full with plenty of unemployed young low educated males trying to sell drugs.
-
I simply broke things which are not related to each other apart.
A) to conclude that drug-traders are low educated is a guess
B) to conclude that low education leads to selling drugs is a risky guess
C) drug selling is a crime (at least still) and so a different topic. And the selling of drugs could NEVER works as well as it does if the chiefs of the trade were not locals (CH D F BE LX NL etc)

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So before anyone from his armchair on the balcony of the gold coast appartment comments on it: Forcing immigrants to learn a language filters out the worst. It is a self defence against exploding social costs.
It's not targeted against high educated expats at all.
-
NO, forcing immigrants to learn a local language unfortunately will NOT filter out the worst, as quite many of the worst are quite good in learning languages. It is trying to make the immigrants more able to keep up with the host-countries
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Old 27.11.2011, 06:10
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Re: Language key to NEW foreigner integration law

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Again, what North-of-the-Alps-Western-Europe WANTED to import were the "lower end of society" or in other words people from underdeveloped rural regions. But to say that the reasons for them to come over here was that the "host countries" paid for their living "simply based on the fact that they have kids" is rubbish. They emigrated to NOAWE (specified above) simply because those countries offered
A) jobs & work
B) better wages
C) far better working conditions
D) better social healthcare, education and social services
---- It is not very nice of you that you like to get your garbage done away with but get grumpy about the fact that those who do it enjoy the better wages and services of your place
Sorry Wolli, but again: I know that we two are a different generation and you live somehow in the 60s. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who works hard for their living, no matter where they are from or how educated they are. They deserve my full respect.

But the reality in Germany is different from Switzerland: We have twice the unemployment and if you TODAY immigrate to Berlin without speaking German and without an education: you will not find a job. You move there fully knowing that you will have to live on social insurances. And yes, people who live full time and long term on the tax money of others do bother me, no matter if they are German or immigrants.

And just on all the racism claims: I'd like to simply add some facts into the discussion.
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...cke-60502.html
Spiegel is a high quality left winged paper and they gathered some facts against some stupid right winged propaganda of the CSU (the equivalent of the SVP):
- there is no mass immigration right now, but net EMIGRATION. That in itself should raise a red flag as you will need somebody paying for the social insurances in the future...
- the number of asylum seekers has dropped dramatically over the past decade.
- the programs to attract high educated expats are a joke. 2500 people in a country of 80 Millions is not exactly a successful attempt to get fresh talent. The statistics show where they are from (predominantly India and China) to proof some statements from right winged politicians on "we don't need to be swamped with more Muslims" to be absolute rubbish
(- and for the Swiss in here who shouted in 2008 that the country is too attractive for Germans: four times as many went to Poland instead of Switzerland...)

However even the most left winged paper admits that there is one key problem (slide 8): While the average foreigner in Germany is actually even more likely to have graduated from high school than a German does one group stick out: While less than two percent of the German and less than four of the entire population do not manage to finish ANY secondary school successfully do peole with a Turkish background in Germany stay WAY behind - nearly one third!

As people here don't necessarily know the German education system: You have to got to school in Germany and the secondary school is split into three types from very basic schools preparing you for an apprenticeship in crafts to Gymnasium preparing you for a higher education. If you just follow the mandatory years in the lowest one without failing too many subjects gets you the lowest education level without any formal test when you are 15. To not pass this means you had some serious issues in your school career as this is really really basic.

If you do not graduate from even the lowest one does that mean that you will not have access to most of the professional trainings even for applied crafts and you simply won't be employed. Given the relatively low number of new comers is that not only a problem of new arrivals from Turkey, but even more so from second and third generation immigrants. Simple baseline: If you don't manage to finish Hauptschule you will struggle to find any form of employment as 96% of the population is better educated than you.

I would not even hire you as a cashier or waiter as you apparently not managed to learn the basics in maths. And again: We are talking about one third of the Turkish population being in the bottom 4%, that is about a Million of people!

Last edited by Treverus; 27.11.2011 at 06:25.
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