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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #361  
Old 10.10.2009, 14:58
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I think the main difference I find between Christianity and Islam is that one has evolved and changed over time along with society... the other hasn't much.
That's completely untrue. The silly practices and beliefs of the Wahhabi movement in modern Saudi Arabia and elsewhere are utterly different from the beliefs and practices of previous Islamic political entities. The Islam that we see in Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan is nothing like the Islam that was prevalent in medieval Spain, Baghdad, Damascus and Constantinople, which, while never being very nice, was an awful lot more tolerant.

This is a very common misconception, and it doesn't really help islamic/kaffir relations, as it merely p!sses off those muslims who don't follow these bizarre modern interpretations of the Koran.
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  #362  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:01
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

The main issue with the modern evolution of Islam is that the extreme Saudi Wahhabi branch exerts immense influence throughout the Islamic world due to money. On a trip to my ancestral Sri Lanka a few years ago, my dad mentioned in response to my notice that MANY more women from the Muslim community wore full covering head scarves and conservative clothing than when he grew up there. Money for schools, mosques, and other projects talks.
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  #363  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:03
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Don't start being silly, it's a forum not a streetcorner.
I agree, this is not a place to assume the position of a mentor and start teaching people to "better take a chip off their shoulder and start reading history books". Such inane remarks do not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way.
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  #364  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:10
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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That's completely untrue. The silly practices and beliefs of the Wahhabi movement in modern Saudi Arabia and elsewhere are utterly different from the beliefs and practices of previous Islamic political entities. The Islam that we see in Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan is nothing like the Islam that was prevalent in medieval Spain, Baghdad, Damascus and Constantinople, which, while never being very nice, was an awful lot more tolerant.

This is a very common misconception, and it doesn't really help islamic/kaffir relations, as it merely p!sses off those muslims who don't follow these bizarre modern interpretations of the Koran.
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The main issue with the modern evolution of Islam is that the extreme Saudi Wahhabi branch exerts immense influence throughout the Islamic world due to money. On a trip to my ancestral Sri Lanka a few years ago, my dad mentioned in response to my notice that MANY more women from the Muslim community wore full covering head scarves and conservative clothing than when he grew up there. Money for schools, mosques, and other projects talks.
That's very interesting and I stand corrected, I wouldn't have thought that Islam had got more extreme as time has progressed, but if as you say "money talks" in spreading the influence of the extreme elements, then I guess it's no wonder considering they are based in the rich oil countries. What a shame that the more tolerant side of Islam didn't originate there and the money was used to spread that, maybe then it would be viewed in a very different light today.
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  #365  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I wouldn't have thought that Islam had got more extreme as time has progressed
It's quite a common phenomenon: Compare Germany in the twenties to Germany in the thirties, or the Conservative Party under Edward Heath to the same party under Margaret Thatcher...

Again, don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting that Islam was ever nice. Merely more tolerant.

Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims still had to know their place. They just didn't suffer quite so much persecution as they enjoy these days in those parts of the Islamic world where the Wahhabites get to call the shots...
  #366  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:19
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I think we put a different meaning in the word "tolerant" then. Kidnapping children from their families and turning them into slaves and Janissaries, enforcing special taxes for people who worship the wrong God, discriminatory laws and practices designed to put the "infidels" into a humiliating position and to "hold their mouths shut" - all this does not count as "tolerant" in my book.

"Whoever changes their Islamic religion, kill him". This is part of the Islamic ideology, and it has nothing to do with tolerance.
Okay I'll say it a different way. I would hazard a very good guess that in terms of kidnapping children from their families, enforcing special taxes, putting into a humiliating position, hold their mouths shut (or maybe open), there is much greater number of this happening to girls from Eastern Europe, Phillipines, Thailand, China, exported to the Christian West than Muslims are doing anywhere.

In my original phrasing, all I was saying is that you come across as very bitter towards Muslims based on statements that have no backing in reality. It would be like making a statement on those scummy Christians cuz they keep telling us morbid heathens we're going to burn in hell.
  #367  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

When discussing Islam and Muslims, its important to differentiatiate between the core tenents of the religion, the various applications of it in different cultures, the politics in those cultures and the people who practice them.

At its core, Islam is a recipe for peaceful (salaam) living. When it is applied to a society, it is a tool for managing that society. A tool can be used for good purposes, or bad purposes. Politically, it can also be used as a weapon.

When Islam is applied socially and politically, it has the effect of unifying ethnic and tribal factions under one leadership. I see that it has the effect of concentrating power at the head of the state. I noticed this when the Nigerian President (I think it was Obasanjo), who has Christian, sought to implement Sharia law in his country. It dawned on me that Sharia enhances the power of the head of the state.

The application of Islam in a pluralistic and democratic society may not necessarily follow the same pattern as state Islam. But, for sure, it is a community based application, and not individual based.

I'd be glad to hear examples of others ways Islam is applied positively in pluralistic and democratic societies.
  #368  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:44
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Okay I'll say it a different way. I would hazard a very good guess that in terms of kidnapping children from their families, enforcing special taxes, putting into a humiliating position, hold their mouths shut (or maybe open), there is much greater number of this happening to girls from Eastern Europe, Phillipines, Thailand, China, exported to the Christian West than Muslims are doing anywhere.
Yes this is done by criminals everywhere. I was talking about official discriminatory state laws which existed (and some exist even today) in some (not all) Islamic countries.

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In my original phrasing, all I was saying is that you come across as very bitter towards Muslims based on statements that have no backing in reality. It would be like making a statement on those scummy Christians cuz they keep telling us morbid heathens we're going to burn in hell.
I think that "Islam" as ideology is not the same as "Muslims" as a group of people. To me, criticizing Islam or any other ideology or religion is part of the normal democratic discussion in a free society. I do have a bitter attitude towards not only Islam, but towards any organized religion. I think organized religion is a scam that takes advantage of gullible people. I pray to God for the peaceful demise and disappearance of all organized religions.
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  #369  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:46
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Okay I'll say it a different way. I would hazard a very good guess that in terms of kidnapping children from their families, enforcing special taxes, putting into a humiliating position, hold their mouths shut (or maybe open), there is much greater number of this happening to girls from Eastern Europe, Phillipines, Thailand, China, exported to the Christian West than Muslims are doing anywhere.
That is undoubtedly true, more atrocities are carried out every day by the general unwashed than any religion could ever hope to match. I think the main difference though. is when an atrocity is carried out in the name of something. We hear about sex traffiking or drug murders every day and we don't blink an eyelid because on some level we accept that this is part of todays society, it's "normal"... but when we hear of religions and regimes that still today bury people alive, stone people to death and all the other things listed earlier I think it evokes a natural, almost unconscious sense of horror.

We like to think of ourselves as civilised, living in a democracy, with the freedom to do what we want when we want (however limited that is to some extent)... and the thought of people being mutilated, killed and tortured for doing or being the things that in our culture we take for granted is... well a bit of an alien concept I guess. To me it brings images of the dark ages where your life was literally subject to someone elses whim, and you lived in fear of what was going to happen to you. It makes me angry that things like this still go on in the world. I mean, I can understand why people kill each-other over drugs... I can understand why gangs shoot each-other in pointless turf wars... that stuff will be there for a long time regardless of how civilised our culture is. But death for adultery? Death for being gay? Death for falling in love with someone from another religious caste? Having your hand cut off for stealing a loaf of bread? That these things still go on, and are advocated and enforced by actual governments in the name of Islam, I just can't understand.
  #370  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:52
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I pray to God for the peaceful demise and disappearance of all organized religions.
Will they be able to take their schools, hospitals, hospices and charitable institutions with them when they go?
  #371  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:55
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Yes this is done by criminals everywhere. I was talking about official discriminatory state laws which existed (and some exist even today) in some (not all) Islamic countries.

I think that "Islam" as ideology is not the same as "Muslims" as a group of people. To me, criticizing Islam or any other ideology or religion is part of the normal democratic discussion in a free society. I do have a bitter attitude towards not only Islam, but towards any organized religion. I think organized religion is a scam that takes advantage of gullible people. I pray to God for the peaceful demise and disappearance of all organized religions.

In the post-modern context, I find it completely ludicrous to claim Christianity, Islam, or any other "ism" had done something or commited anything. These are concepts that are benign of actions. It is humans and their communities who do things. These concepts are all merely influencers. How they are applied is subject to the intentions of humans.
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Old 10.10.2009, 15:57
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

So what's the appropriate terminology, then, d'you reckon?

Christianity : the Church :: Islam : __________?
  #373  
Old 10.10.2009, 15:59
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So what's the appropriate terminology, then, d'you reckon?

Christianity : the Church :: Islam : __________?
State? Community?
  #374  
Old 10.10.2009, 16:06
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Ummah. .....
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Old 10.10.2009, 16:19
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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State? Community?
No, I don't think so. There may be plenty of overlap in Islamic [:= predominantly Islam-following] parts of the world, but those are separate institutions with (except in the case of an actual theocracy) separate aims.

No, what's the word for the human organization dedicated to the advancement of Islam? All its clerics, theologians, religious administrators - what do you call them, as an organization?

Like 'the Church' (whichever church), but for Islam.

(It's all very well saying "we must distinguish", but it's much easier to distinguish when doing so doesn't call for working "Islam-as-a-philosophy" or "Islam-as-an-organization" into every third sentence.)
  #376  
Old 10.10.2009, 16:21
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Ummah. .....
Ah, OK. Thanks for that.
  #377  
Old 10.10.2009, 16:22
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Will they be able to take their schools, hospitals, hospices and charitable institutions with them when they go?
The hospitals and charities I would keep of course. But not the religious schools, thank you. If the kids in Northern Ireland did not go to segregated Catholic and Protestant schools the conflict would have been much easier to avoid. If the little kids in Afghanistan did not go to madrasas to be indoctrinated by hate spewing illiterate mullahs, they wouldn't have turned into Talibans.
  #378  
Old 10.10.2009, 16:28
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The hospitals and charities I would keep of course. But not the religious schools, thank you.
If the Church of England hadn't founded all those schools in the 19th century, there'd be no Primary schooling in England and Wales, and they'd probably still be sending children up chimneys.

Nah. You can't get rid of organised religion and keep all the good stuff.

...unless you're Henry VIII, of course...
  #379  
Old 10.10.2009, 16:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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If the Church of England hadn't founded all those schools in the 19th century, there'd be no Primary schooling in England and Wales, and they'd probably still be sending children up chimneys.
Agreed. Many good things came out of organized religion, as well as many bad ones. But I think it is sort of redundant in the modern age.

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Nah. You can't get rid of organised religion and keep all the good stuff.

...unless you're Henry VIII, of course...
Hey, if Henry did it...we should at least try it, no? Of course I wouldn't recommend his methods
  #380  
Old 10.10.2009, 18:01
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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State? Community?
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Ummah. .....
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No, I don't think so. There may be plenty of overlap in Islamic [:= predominantly Islam-following] parts of the world, but those are separate institutions with (except in the case of an actual theocracy) separate aims.

No, what's the word for the human organization dedicated to the advancement of Islam? All its clerics, theologians, religious administrators - what do you call them, as an organization?

Like 'the Church' (whichever church), but for Islam.

(It's all very well saying "we must distinguish", but it's much easier to distinguish when doing so doesn't call for working "Islam-as-a-philosophy" or "Islam-as-an-organization" into every third sentence.)

Ummah is the Arabic word for "community" or nation".

Church, on the other hand, has gone through various redefinitions. The original word, "ekklesia", simply meant a gathering of christians. But since then, it has taken on the meaning of an architectural building or an organization. It had nothing to do with creating states or a worldly government. This only came about after the romanization of Christianity.
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