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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #461  
Old 11.10.2009, 10:48
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

interesting it is, but what is not shown is that many parts of that "Islamic World" just was under the rulership of Muslim rulers but was not Muslim in reality. Much of India, much of Ukraine, Armenia, Bulgaria etc remained Christian. Just as much of the colonies of Europe did not change religion later.
  #462  
Old 11.10.2009, 10:51
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I'll have a cuppa.

I won't sell my daughter for 3 camels though.

Look, you are an intelligent bloke and I imagine your heart is in the right place.

Your mistake is assuming that Islam as a political power is as reasonable as you.

Islam is NOT a political power. As simple as that.
  #463  
Old 11.10.2009, 11:04
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Islam is NOT a political power. As simple as that.


So the highest Muslim cleric in Iran appointing the president after a 'fair' and 'above board' election, had nothing to do with Islam being a politcal power?


Right.


So the Turkish political party in power that has reintroduced head scarves because of its non secular Islamic leanings has nothing to do with Islam being a politcal power?

Right.



By the way, the Pope is NOT a Catholic. As simple as that.


  #464  
Old 11.10.2009, 11:44
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

It's a very interesting topic and I'm swaying to and fro on how I feel.

My first initial reaction to the upcoming vote was that everyone should have the infrastructure to carry out their religion. No matter where they are. It's only ethical.

Then I got talking to a Brit who told me what he has seen happen in England since the building of mosques.

And please correct me if I got any part of this story wrong.

According to my friend, England now has many large Islam communities centered around their place of worship. These communities have isolated themselves from the outside world, have their own schools and do not enforce English as a language to learn, hence many people (mostly women) still speak a foreign language and need translators when going to doctors, etc... The peer pressure in these communities often lead to a stronger theocratic following than even in their "home country." Women wear their burka-like garments, are pressured into arranged marriages and are frowned upon when trying to break out of their community.

After hearing my friend's story, I began to wonder about the repercutions about mosques, minarets, and large, devoted Islam communities.

I was shocked and disappointed at seeing all the black-garmented women with covered faces shopping along Oxford Street during my last visit to London. I truly felt the middle ages have returned to England with its influx of devout Muslim followers.

Because my feelings are stronger when it comes to discrimination towards women than allowing the building of minarets, I will say "no" to minarets.

In all honesty, has England become a better place with all the active and "isolated" Islamic communities? Can the government still enforce its laws in these tight-knit communities or are people frightened of fanatic retaliation?

I am honestly interested in your opinion. Thanks.
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  #465  
Old 11.10.2009, 12:42
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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According to my friend, England now has many large Islam communities centered around their place of worship. These communities have isolated themselves from the outside world, have their own schools and do not enforce English as a language to learn, hence many people (mostly women) still speak a foreign language and need translators when going to doctors, etc... The peer pressure in these communities often lead to a stronger theocratic following than even in their "home country." Women wear their burka-like garments, are pressured into arranged marriages and are frowned upon when trying to break out of their community.
It sounds like Blackburn.

As my friends who live there say "Be careful, if you say the wrong thing they will kill you".

Well maybe not literally kill you but apparently it isn't a lot of fun living in such a place.
  #466  
Old 11.10.2009, 14:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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It sounds like Blackburn.

As my friends who live there say "Be careful, if you say the wrong thing they will kill you".

Well maybe not literally kill you but apparently it isn't a lot of fun living in such a place.

Fear and paranoai? Those sound like personal issues. Why blame muslims for that?
  #467  
Old 11.10.2009, 15:03
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Seriously, you think I am a bigot because I don't want to live in an Islamic dominated society? ...So yes, I am against a few minarets because it is just the thin end of the wedge...
I said it was likely you are bigoted. Do you really think this society is so weak it can't tolerate a few minarets? You really think this is Jerusalem with a demographic time bomb? We're many generations away from having to worry about Sharia Law in Switzerland. The old farmers wouldn't have it. My concern is the same beligerence may strangle the shoots of religious expression which most Muslims I've spoken to say minarets represent. The SVP is the people's party. A double edged sword

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...And if with the voting, it's accepted that minarets shouldn't be built on mosques, I just hope we won't start to look over our shoulders because of extremists while walking around Zurich!!!
It would play nicely into both extemists camps.

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...Do you welcome blood on the streets Europe so readily or do you welcome Muslim domination?
Hysterical example. Not ha! ha! hysterical, either.

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I'll have a cuppa...
A cuppa çay would be lovely



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...So F-that bullshit of this crappy campain and vote yes or don't vote and forget the nonesense of some weird ass politicians ^^
Voting Yes = Supporting minaret prohibition
Voting No = Supporting minaret construction

I'd imagine most here won't be voting because they can't. They can pay taxes though...

Just to be clear



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Fear and paranoai? Those sound like personal issues. Why blame muslims for that?
Oh and how politicians love to feed on that fear. They don't care what your think about minarets, but they'll grab more power by feeding on your fear.
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  #468  
Old 11.10.2009, 16:05
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Fear and paranoai? Those sound like personal issues. Why blame muslims for that?
Yes, I'm sure that is what it is. Muslims never gets antsy about their religion. Everyone knows that.

Sadly, my friends don't live in Switzerland near you. They live in Blackburn where about half the people are Muslims.

Of course you would know better about what is going on there from your home in (presumably) Switzerland. It is only 1,300 km away after all.

I am sure you have a better grasp of the situation than they do.

Yes, I'm sure of it.

I will tell them to seek the help of a mental health professional. Thanks for alerting them in time.
  #469  
Old 11.10.2009, 17:10
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Yes, I'm sure that is what it is. Muslims never gets antsy about their religion. Everyone knows that.

Sadly, my friends don't live in Switzerland near you. They live in Blackburn where about half the people are Muslims.

Of course you would know better about what is going on there from your home in (presumably) Switzerland. It is only 1,300 km away after all.

I am sure you have a better grasp of the situation than they do.

Yes, I'm sure of it.

I will tell them to seek the help of a mental health professional. Thanks for alerting them in time.

I'm sorry. You're right. I don't know what it is like in Blackburn for someone who is afraid of it.

But I do know what it is like in Harlem, Bronx, Southside Chicago, Oakland, Watts and South-Central L.A. Those were considered "no-go" areas for non-black folks. But then I discovered a few things about those places. They have some of the best barbeque ribs in the world. I discovered Chicken and Waffles. The hushpuppies, greens and black-eyed peas kept me coming back. Then I made friends in the area, and got to know some families there. I've never been shot at, but then I don't go there looking for trouble.

It's basically a learning experience, don't you think?
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  #470  
Old 11.10.2009, 17:31
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Phos, I appreciate your opinion and, as an American, feel very much the same way. However, I was blown away by the amount of women wearing burka-like garments during my visit in London this summer. The story I heard about the self-isolating Islamic communities in England was also quite eye-opening. I don't think the States have these kind of Islamic communities but I may be wrong.

I am still patiently waiting for someone to back up the story I heard or give me another set of facts.
  #471  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:01
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Phos, I appreciate your opinion and, as an American, feel very much the same way. However, I was blown away by the amount of women wearing burka-like garments during my visit in London this summer. The story I heard about the self-isolating Islamic communities in England was also quite eye-opening. I don't think the States have these kind of Islamic communities but I may be wrong.

I am still patiently waiting for someone to back up the story I heard or give me another set of facts.

I don't remember seeing anyone wear a Burga on the streets of the 'States. But then, most people travel in private automobiles. Granted, people in Venice and Hollywood Blvd. wear all kinds of things. I thought I was use to eccentric clothing, but the Burga did take me back when I first saw it. I wasn't sure if it was a costume or serious. It puzzled me. The blackness of the color is something I would normally associate with a funeral. I've only seen it here in Europe.

The Hijab and the Shayla are not bad at all. They can be worn elegantly.

Yeah, it is alien to me and I'm not comfortable with it. But telling someone what they can and cannot wear doesn't fit into my ethos.
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Old 11.10.2009, 18:01
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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The story I heard about the self-isolating Islamic communities in England was also quite eye-opening. I don't think the States have these kind of Islamic communities but I may be wrong.
I have heard that even the Muslims in the USA and Europe are different. The USA gets the engineers and the like and we in Europe get the working class Muslims.

As a consequence its the European working class who tend to have to live beside immigrant working class Muslims and it is safe to say that in the UK there is a huge amount of ill feeling towards them.


No mainstream UK political party will admit that there is a problem and if you are an upper-middle class Oxbridge graduate MP then there is no problem.


People who have watched their hometown get taken over by Muslim immigrants are often less ambivalent.








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  #473  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:10
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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But telling someone what they can and cannot wear doesn't fit into my ethos.

I feel the same way but the problem is that it is all a one way cultural street.

While we naturally, due to Western liberalism, feel we should be reasonable and accomodate their different faith and customs, but when Muslims are in the majority (or even 30%), they tend to aggressively enforce their customs on non Muslims.

Clothing is a case in point. They also tend to be rather good, certainly in the last 50 years since Islam has become more radicalised, at forcing non Muslims out of 'Muslim' areas.


A small minority of radical clerics whip up young male Muslims to carry out their wishes and the vast majority of peaceful Muslims stand around like sheep and do nothing about it.
  #474  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:29
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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...A small minority of radical clerics whip up young male Muslims to carry out their wishes and the vast majority of peaceful Muslims stand around like sheep and do nothing about it.
Hmm, is it just me who see's a parallel with the minaret referendum?

Earlier you mentioned "thin end of the wedge". This language reminds me of the bigotted language one hears from the numbnuts at the BNP. Please don't take offence, I'm not suggesting you're a numbnut.
  #475  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

the pro for me is we have churches, we have synagogues...whats against a mosque/minarette? on the other hand are there any churches in arabique countries, do the have full bells on sunday, full right on excel their religious "customs"? if not...i find it discriminating and id say the mosques shouldnt be allowed to have the muezzin calling from a minarette... quit pro quo...
  #476  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:50
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Earlier you mentioned "thin end of the wedge". This language reminds me of the bigoted language one hears from the numbnuts at the BNP.

Its funny you should mention the BNP.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hley-Cole.html

If you look at the comments section, it looks like a lot of British people support a lot of what they say. After finding similar comments in the Times Online, it would appear that such 'bigoted numb-nut language' is expressing a mainstream opinion in the UK.

Still, the political parties and much of the media appear to be convinced that it is a minority 'bigoted numb-nut' perspective.

Something has got to give. Problems don't go away just because some people pretend they don't exist.

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  #477  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:53
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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[/font]


Its funny you should mention the BNP.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1219538/BBC-storm-BNPs-notorious-activists-invited-Radio-1-insult-Ashley-Cole.html

If you look at the comments section, it looks like a lot of British people support a lot of what they say. After finding similar comments in the Times Online, it would appear that such 'bigoted numb-nut language' is expressing a mainstream opinion in the UK.

Still, the political parties and much of the media appear to be convinced that it is a minority 'bigoted numb-nut' perspective.

Something has got to give. Problems don't go away just because some people pretend they don't exist.

Please don't confuse the appearance of numbnuts in mainstream society with mainstream society. I'm still not saying you're a numbnut.
  #478  
Old 11.10.2009, 18:55
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

If the referendum is defeated by the Swiss people, I hope they will allow some creative and practical designs ( ventilation & community identification for example ) of minarets in addition to following the building codes.

Apart from those back home, I visited of the more famous minarets in India - Charminar in Hyderabad, Central India. [Char = 4, Minar = Minaret]. Spectacular views of the city ( for a nominal entrance fee ).

Interestingly, the Swiss poured funds to support the world's 2nd largest minaret in Afghanistan ( in 2002 ) - the Jam Minaret.






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  #479  
Old 11.10.2009, 19:01
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Hilarious, having just scanned that Daily Hate article, it tells us:

"The Mail on Sunday has discovered the full background of the two 'young BNP supporters' identified by the BBC only as Joey, 24, and 28-year-old Mark.
Both men are senior officials in the BNP party hierarchy, and one has a notorious history of racist, homophobic and anti-semitic views and is a self-confessed admirer of Adolf Hitler."

Right, this issue will soon to draw to a close if we keep finding apologists for Nazis and there's no further constructive discussion.
  #480  
Old 11.10.2009, 19:05
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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If you look at the comments section, it looks like a lot of British people support a lot of what they say. After finding similar comments in the Times Online, it would appear that such 'bigoted numb-nut language' is expressing a mainstream opinion in the UK.
That's extremely funny and it shows how little you really know. You think a comments section on a news website represents mainstream opinion? Even the BBC News website, famously, gets its share of wingnuts.

There's even a blog devoted to laughing at it: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

Given the politics of the Daily Mail and to a lesser extent the Times, it's extremely unsurprising that the comments sections generate the kind of comments they do.

I am disturbed that this forum is now giving a voice to those who openly express support for the BNP.
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