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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #501  
Old 12.10.2009, 11:14
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, I assumed... what other compatibility would you wish to take into account when organizing a skyline?
Well basically... I wasn't talking specifically about the skyline.

Islam sees non-Muslims as infidels... why should the mosques be granted a 100% equal share in something as prominent as an old city skyline when the people who practise there represent a proportionally small minority? I can fully understand why many Swiss do not want minuets from opposing religions sharing the same skyline as churches that have been there for centuries. What have they done to earn a place of that significance... simply arrived in the country in the last 50 years or so and started practising their faith? I would defend the right of ANY religion to practise itself to death in any country of opposing faith without discrimination... but to permanently change the skyline of a historic Christian city? Nope. And for the record I wouldn't support a Christian church doing that in an Islamic country either.
  #502  
Old 12.10.2009, 11:29
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well basically... I wasn't talking specifically about the skyline.

Islam sees non-Muslims as infidels... why should the mosques be granted a 100% equal share in something as prominent as an old city skyline when the people who practise there represent a proportionally small minority? I can fully understand why many Swiss do not want minuets from opposing religions sharing the same skyline as churches that have been there for centuries. What have they done to earn a place of that significance... simply arrived in the country in the last 50 years or so and started practising their faith? I would defend the right of ANY religion to practise itself to death in any country of opposing faith without discrimination... but to permanently change the skyline of a historic Christian city? Nope. And for the record I wouldn't support a Christian church doing that in an Islamic country either.
Any Swiss city and any Swiss village has the right to block the erection of buildings not suiting the skyline/landscape/heritage etc, and often do so. So that no minaret is to dominate any skyline of historic or traditional value. But look at places like Glattbrugg. Any "historic skyline" anywhere ? Thanks to the airport, the height of buildings in Glattbrugg is limited anyway.
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  #503  
Old 12.10.2009, 11:30
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Did I say architecturally compatible? Hmm reading back, I don't believe I did...
I assume that if you think something is dominating a skyline it's not compatible (in Mathnut's sense).

In your earlier post you admit that skylines change over time . . . how much time would you demand before a minaret should be allowed in a Swiss town?
  #504  
Old 12.10.2009, 11:44
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Islam sees non-Muslims as infidels...
Islam doesn't see non-muslim as infidels. Radical muslim do. The quran recognise judaism and Christianism. But does say Islam is the final one. The last version, the updated one.

I'm tired to hear all the bashing and misinformation about Islam.

So many thread talk about it on the forum right now. Please, I'm begging you all read about the subject, informe yourself before to come up with such crappy statement.

According to what I read on this forum. I am a poor cover 3rd wife muslim woman, being abused by her husband who doesn't know better because we don't have education and we sell fruits and vegetable in a corner store. We also must live in a very bad and poor neighborhood where all the turks radicals live and we are talking every night about the infidels and how we could get rid of all of them. I will probably marry my daughter to a very old man when she will get 13.

Did I forget something?

Last edited by Nil; 12.10.2009 at 12:04.
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  #505  
Old 12.10.2009, 11:57
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

I'm quite bothered by lack of distinction here between Islam and culture.

Fair enough, peolple are afraid of minarets because it represents Islam. But what do people actually associate with Islam? Burkha? Mercy killing? Stoning for Adultery?

I tend to associate this more to the culture which exist in certain Arab/African countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Certainly not Indonesia, Malaysia. If those moslem immigrants in Britain are from Indonesia and Malaysia instead, there won't be any Burkha, mercy killings, etc.

So my issue with the minaret thing is really more about the scare tactics that are being used, especially when they try to manipulate people who already fear the unknown. Banning minaret is not the answer. If they don't want the culture, they should simply stop letting people who actually practice the culture into the country. There are plenty of moslems who do not practice these but still would like a place to worship.

From my personal point of view, it is all standard planning permission practice - if the design is not consistent with other buildings in the same area, then they have every right to decline it.
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  #506  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:09
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Islam sees non-Muslims as infidels... why should the mosques be granted a 100% equal share in something as prominent as an old city skyline when the people who practise there represent a proportionally small minority?
And Christianity also sees non-Christians as infidels (with different groups being more or less insistent on/vocal about it.) What's your point?

Nobody's arguing for a 100% equal share (i.e. just as many minarets as church spires.) The question in this initiative is whether they can - ever, possibly, subject to local planning permission - have more than a 0% share. Since they represent more than 0% of the people in this country, I would think this is a no-brainer.

By the way, IBM employees are also a minority, and many of them recently arrived in Switzerland. Are skyscrapers owned by non-Christian, non-Swiss companies OK with you?

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Well basically... I wasn't talking specifically about the skyline.
I'm confused. You say you're not talking specifically about the skyline, and yet you haven't talked about anything but the skyline. Is the skyline a metaphor for something else, then?
  #507  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:10
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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In your earlier post you admit that skylines change over time . . . how much time would you demand before a minaret should be allowed in a Swiss town?
In my opinion, when the religion behind it has established itself in said town for a historically significant period of time. In 1990 the Islamic population of Switzerland was a only 2.2% of the total head count... and now only represents 4%. I personally do not consider that time up until the present day a significant amount of time to start making such significant marks upon a city. We are talking about a cosmetic addition to a building here... it is not something essential to practising a religion, and no-one at all is going against their right to preach and practise wherever they please. Yet the mark these minuets will make will be irrevocable and permanent, relevant only to a tiny fraction of the population for mostly superficial reasons, yet viewed by all. I can fully understand why such a significant proportion of the population disagree with them being built, and I don't think they should be judged as racist or discriminatory for that.

People are using this issue to further their own political goals and are sending negative messages about the religion... but I simply from an objective point of view (i'm not remotely religious) do not believe that they have earned the right to start making such significant marks upon a city after such a short space of time, and as I said... I would say the same if a Christian religion wanted to erect spires in a Muslim country in similar circumstances... I simply don't think it's necessary. There are hundreds of Mosques freely allowed to practise in the country... why do they need minarets rising into the sky? Can you imagine how much it would change things if they all suddenly started building them?

As someone said in a previous post, it is also case of the architecture not fitting the surrounding buildings and the look and feel of the massively dominant faith of the country, and the planning permission should reflect this.
  #508  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:16
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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. . . even if churches were banned in all Muslim countries (which is not the case) we should still be happy with mosques being built here: It's a sign of our tolerant and open society.
If a country ran International trade on the basis of your logic then all of its industries would be shut down.

You seem to be happy for one civilisation to export its religion to the West while Christianity is barred or significantly impeded from being exported back.

To allow such a situation to continue isn't a sign of tolerance and openness. It is a sign of dangerous self destructive idealism.

A business couldn't survive using you idealistic principles. What makes you think that a civilisation can?

And, the West isn't so strong that it doesn't matter. It may have escaped your attention but the West's power and influence is actually declining in comparison with the rest of the world.
  #509  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:26
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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In 1990 the Islamic population of Switzerland was a only 2.2% of the total head count... and now only represents 4%.
In other words, there are more Muslims now than bankers in Switzerland (3.3% of full-time equivalent positions in 2007).

  #510  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:35
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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You seem to be happy for one civilisation to export its religion to the West while Christianity is barred or significantly impeded from being exported back.
Well, yes.

I am happy that the country I live in enjoys a great deal of religious freedom.
I will continue to be happy about that, whether other benighted parts of the globe do or do not.

If Saudi Arabia wants to live in the Dark Ages, that is no reason why I should wish Switzerland to live in them too.
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  #511  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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In other words, there are more Muslims now than bankers in Switzerland (3.3% of full-time equivalent positions in 2007).
Bankers, and financial building. Yes that relates perfectly to what I was talking about, and your direct comparisons of them with muslims are completely valid. Ahem.
  #512  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:40
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Yet the mark these minuets will make will be irrevocable and permanent,

I didn't want to participate, but you made me, I thought you made a typo the first time the minuet is a VERY Western, VERY European dance, very dainty, VERY white, hokay?
  #513  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:42
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I didn't want to participate, but you made me, I thought you made a typo the first time the minuet is a VERY Western, VERY European dance, very dainty, VERY white, hokay?
It was a typo, it's really not worth entering a discussion to comment on... unless of course that sort of thing floats your boat.
  #514  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:48
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Bankers, and financial building. Yes that relates perfectly to what I was talking about, and your direct comparisons of them with muslims are completely valid. Ahem.
Glad we agree then. Ahem.

You haven't answered my question though: what about non-house-of-worship tall buildings?

The "historic" Zurich skyline was churches and almost nothing else. Here's a picture from 1724.


Don't modern skyscrapers dilute that dominance?
Then why are they OK and minarets not?
  #515  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:57
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Glad we agree then. Ahem.

You haven't answered my question though: what about non-house-of-worship tall buildings?
I have already posted that I think religion plays some part. We'll just agree to disagree, i'm not interested in playing elaborate, extended word games based on peoples mild pedantism. Having gone back and re-read them, I think my posts were clear enough as to conveying my reasons why I don't think they should be built, and my intention wasn't to provide extended debate on my viewpoint (I don't feel I need to, i'm not unsure about my opinion and I understand the reasons for people disagreeing with it), just to give it as I see it. Whether you agree with those reasons or not isn't the end of the world, and I respect your opinion either way.
  #516  
Old 12.10.2009, 12:58
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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In my opinion, when the religion behind it has established itself in said town for a historically significant period of time. In 1990 the Islamic population of Switzerland was a only 2.2% of the total head count... and now only represents 4%. I personally do not consider that time up until the present day a significant amount of time to start making such significant marks upon a city.
Sorry. Is it time practising the religion in the country or is it % of the population? These seem to be mixed up here?

What would be the necessary times and percentages for 'historical significance'? Are we talking hundreds of years and majority status?

You've only told us that you don't think its justified yet.
  #517  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:00
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Sorry. Is it time practising the religion in the country or is it % of the population? These seem to be mixed up here?

What would be the necessary times and percentages for 'historical significance'? Are we talking hundreds of years and majority status?
I think both play a part. I personally think a longer time of integration, and a more significant population would not only go hand in hand, but be a fair justification for really starting to make a physical mark on a city.
  #518  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:02
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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If a country ran International trade on the basis of your logic then all of its industries would be shut down.

You seem to be happy for one civilisation to export its religion to the West while Christianity is barred or significantly impeded from being exported back.

To allow such a situation to continue isn't a sign of tolerance and openness. It is a sign of dangerous self destructive idealism.

A business couldn't survive using you idealistic principles. What makes you think that a civilisation can?

And, the West isn't so strong that it doesn't matter. It may have escaped your attention but the West's power and influence is actually declining in comparison with the rest of the world.
Culture is not business. The comparison is invidious.

Moreover, in international trade periods of protectionism have never been beneficial.
  #519  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:12
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Having gone back and re-read them, I think my posts were clear enough as to conveying my reasons why I don't think they should be built, and my intention wasn't to provide extended debate on my viewpoint (I don't feel I need to, i'm not unsure about my opinion and I understand the reasons for people disagreeing with it), just to give it as I see it. Whether you agree with those reasons or not isn't the end of the world, and I respect your opinion either way.
OK, let me see if I understood your reasons, then. I can't help feeling I have missed something, because they don't make sense and you are normally such a sensible guy.

Mosques should not be allowed to have minarets because:
1) Zürich[/Basel/Bern/Geneva] has historically been a Christian city. There are lots of old churches around and they shouldn't have to share the skyline.
2) Zürich[/Basel/Bern/Geneva] is a predominantly Christian city today. There are lots of Christians around and they shouldn't have to look at minarets.
3) There are not many Muslims and they haven't been here very long. What right have they got to put up tall buildings?
4) Muslims don't like us very much. So we shouldn't let them have minarets.

Have I got that right?
  #520  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:18
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

The first three are closer to the mark out of what you wrote, though you have turned them into black and white statements to try and put it into as negative a light as possible. Anyway as I aid i'm not here to debate it with you as i'm not trying to defend what I wrote... I gave an opinion and it's what I believe. If you dont agree or understand or think it sensible then C'est la vie. Personally, I think the point I was getting at was clear enough and that I went to enough effort to make it legible, but then again I guess sometimes what we think is clear in our own heads isn't always to others. Either way im off out to enjoy some sunshine and do some shopping, so i'll leave you guys to continue the discussion..
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