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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #521  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:37
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

When I moved here from America a number of years ago, I wanted to change Switzerland or Switzerland to change. I came here because I wanted a different life and then I got got here I wanted it to be like home Duhh!!!. Actually, some of things I found frustrating at first and have since disappeared, I miss.

I was on a hike in the mountains last week and it was so nice. Switzerland is all about it's churches, farms, mountains, cows, cheese, clean forests, and of course the people. So why are people so bent on trying tio change this. Why can we just let Switzerland be Switzerland and enjoy its uniqueness.

The idea is if minarets flourish it will change the face of the landscape and what makes Switzerland, Switzerland. Basically, Switzerland is a Christian country. I do know that if we went to some middle east countries and we did not follow some of their traditions we would be in trouble.

Switzerland is not an open society like America. This is okay. Why can not we accept this?

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  #522  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:43
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Why can not we accept this?
Because there are some members of the forum who are so hell-bent on portraying themselves as the absolute pinnacle of morality, who love ot turn every minor or major issue into a personal crusade, and who will vocally shout down anyone who does not adhere to a 100% politically correct railroad of far left-wing thought. Sometimes I think they would argue the sun wasn't hot if it would suit the argument and put them in a better light. I personally find it greatly amusing, but they seem to take it very, very seriously.

Anyway must leave now, I have a 50 CHF Orell Fussli voucher to spend, exciting times!

*tounge firmly in cheek as always*

Last edited by Chuff; 12.10.2009 at 19:32.
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  #523  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:49
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

I guess it all comes down to:

Would I like to have a minaret in my small country village? No, I wouldn't.

Therefore, I'm against minarets in Switzerland and will vote accordingly.

Am I happy to see the mini-skyscraper Roche is building in Rotkreuz? No, because it too will change the landscape. Unfortunately, I have no voice in that issue.
  #524  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:50
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Don't know if this has been said already and I'm not thrashing through almost 30 pages to find out but Switzerland doesn't seem to kick up too much of a stink when their cities' "skylines" suddenly pop up with buildings with origins in the US/UK/China/wherever because there is usually a big fat corporate wodge of money coming to pay taxes and support employment and the general wealth here. Nobody really worries about the vista of Switzerland then.

Stick a couple of minarets around the place and suddenly everybody is worried they won't be able to see the mountains again and the place will be teeming with burkha-clad ladies.
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  #525  
Old 12.10.2009, 13:59
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Actually, a lot of us are bored at work and like hearing ourselves speak, virtually of course. And certain cultures love complaining.

To give a counter-example, I knew a few Swiss expats in Canada, who also did nothing but complain, about the cheese (fair enough). Or would have the audacity to tell us Canada is a Christian-European country and should stay that way (some locals here still don't take that I am Canadian as an acceptable response to the question where am I from). It happens everywhere.

But the issue being discussed here is obviously a difficult one to be made for such a small country with a distinctive character and reputation. No one is right or moral or anyting in this decision. It's basically down to CH deciding their future direction. But they must accept that one can't stand still anymore; it's too late. And the Muslims must respect CH's character.

If it were me, I would not definitely not rock the boat (or skyline) yet. A grand, yet still subtle place of worship would be the way to go. With all the amazing Swiss architects, I am sure it could be done.
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  #526  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:00
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Don't know if this has been said already and I'm not thrashing through almost 30 pages to find out but Switzerland doesn't seem to kick up too much of a stink when their cities' "skylines" suddenly pop up with buildings with origins in the US/UK/China/wherever because there is usually a big fat corporate wodge of money coming to pay taxes and support employment and the general wealth here. Nobody really worries about the vista of Switzerland then.

Stick a couple of minarets around the place and suddenly everybody is worried they won't be able to see the mountains again and the place will be teeming with burkha-clad ladies.
A minaret would def be nicer than those ugly Soviet-style apt towers near Wiedekon.
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  #527  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:20
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I was on a hike in the mountains last week and it was so nice. Switzerland is all about it's churches, farms, mountains, cows, cheese, clean forests, and of course the people. So why are people so bent on trying to change this. Why can we just let Switzerland be Switzerland and enjoy its uniqueness.
That's all fine, but I reckon if you'd gone on a hike in Zürich last week, you'd have seen a different side of "what makes Switzerland Switzerland" which is just as valid.

The whole country isn't picturesquely rural and uniformly Christian, nor does it aspire to be.

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Switzerland is not an open society like America. This is okay. Why can not we accept this?
But it is a (fairly) open society, like America. This is the part of the anti-minaret argument that really baffles me: the insistence that Muslims are OK, every bit as good as Christians, they can worship here in city or town with complete freedom. But shhh! don't tell the skyline...

Like the skyline cares about a few more pointy things poking up in between the blocky things.
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  #528  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:33
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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But it is a (fairly) open society, like America.
No, it's not. America prides itself on opening their welcoming arms to all cultures and walks of life. It looks itself as a melting pot.

Switzerland doesn't have the same pride and it doesn't want to be a melting pot.
  #529  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:34
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

I recently spent 7 weeks in the Emirates and not once did I hear any clanging of Catholic church bells.

Every few blocks of houses were mosques, and you knew it was Friday when the Koran would be read over loudspeakers for quite long periods, periodically throughout the day, beginning at about 4 or 5am........ and repeated at regular intervals thereafter. On other days what sounded like some sort of sing-song-wailing only would ring out to drown any outdoor discussions.

Shopping centres also contain mosques, for the faithful to attend during the day - while shopping or working - and shops in the malls are requested to turn off their radios/music during the Muslim prayer times.

The newspapers repeatedly warn foreign tourists to refrain from walking past mosques in the times leading up to, during, and after, their prayer times.... And if they HAD to be in the vicinity of a mosque - to wear "appropriate" clothing.

Will these types of intrustions/inhibitions also, one day, be applied in Switzerland? (the thin edge of the wedge type of thing?)
  #530  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I recently spent 7 weeks in the Emirates and not once did I hear any clanging of Catholic church bells.

Every few blocks of houses were mosques, and you knew it was Friday when the Koran would be read over loudspeakers for quite long periods, periodically throughout the day, beginning at about 4 or 5am........ and repeated at regular intervals thereafter. On other days what sounded like some sort of sing-song-wailing only would ring out to drown any outdoor discussions.

Shopping centres also contain mosques, for the faithful to attend during the day - while shopping or working - and shops in the malls are requested to turn off their radios/music during the Muslim prayer times.

The newspapers repeatedly warn foreign tourists to refrain from walking past mosques in the times leading up to, during, and after, their prayer times.... And if they HAD to be in the vicinity of a mosque - to wear "appropriate" clothing.

Will these types of intrustions/inhibitions also, one day, be applied in Switzerland? (the thin edge of the wedge type of thing?)
I would say only in the world of the SVP but in reality, no.

In the same "thin end of the wedge" vein; they have English pubs here in Switzerland but in 9 years of living here I don't think I have read one article about someone being stabbed outside one at kicking out time.
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Old 12.10.2009, 14:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I recently spent 7 weeks in the Emirates and not once did I hear any clanging of Catholic church bells.

Every few blocks of houses were mosques, and you knew it was Friday when the Koran would be read over loudspeakers for quite long periods, periodically throughout the day, beginning at about 4 or 5am........ and repeated at regular intervals thereafter. On other days what sounded like some sort of sing-song-wailing only would ring out to drown any outdoor discussions.

Shopping centres also contain mosques, for the faithful to attend during the day - while shopping or working - and shops in the malls are requested to turn off their radios/music during the Muslim prayer times.

The newspapers repeatedly warn foreign tourists to refrain from walking past mosques in the times leading up to, during, and after, their prayer times.... And if they HAD to be in the vicinity of a mosque - to wear "appropriate" clothing.

Will these types of intrustions/inhibitions also, one day, be applied in Switzerland? (the thin edge of the wedge type of thing?)
Why do people keep making comparisons to extreme cases in the Gulf, rather than to more applicable cases like Canada, US, UK, France, even Turkey.
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  #532  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:40
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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No, it's not. America prides itself on opening their welcoming arms to all cultures and walks of life. It looks itself as a melting pot.
They must be those welcoming arms AFTER you have run the dehumanising gauntlet of airport security.
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  #533  
Old 12.10.2009, 14:50
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I recently spent 7 weeks in the Emirates and not once did I hear any clanging of Catholic church bells.

Every few blocks of houses were mosques, and you knew it was Friday when the Koran would be read over loudspeakers for quite long periods, periodically throughout the day, beginning at about 4 or 5am........ and repeated at regular intervals thereafter. On other days what sounded like some sort of sing-song-wailing only would ring out to drown any outdoor discussions.
That could be because you don't know Arabic.

(Or maybe not... I know people who would characterize Handel's Messiah the same way, in spite of its being in English. )

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The newspapers repeatedly warn foreign tourists to refrain from walking past mosques in the times leading up to, during, and after, their prayer times.... And if they HAD to be in the vicinity of a mosque - to wear "appropriate" clothing.
You will find this true of Christian churches as well in many parts of the world. (Switzerland does seem to be more laid back about the whole thing.)

I was in Cyprus two weeks ago, and such signs were everywhere, usually in several languages. Often they have shawls and long trousers you can borrow if you ask - I thought that was a nice touch, so that everybody is welcome and nobody has to be turned away for lack of sartorial foresight.

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Will these types of intrustions/inhibitions also, one day, be applied in Switzerland? (the thin edge of the wedge type of thing?)
I think this - more than any of the "skyline preservation" arguments so often advanced - is what is on people's minds. Shame the arguments are not more often made honestly, so they can be discussed honestly.
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  #534  
Old 12.10.2009, 15:18
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Hmm, democratic in name, perhaps. North Korea is democratic using this definition.


Dude, you are so wrong. The people don't want this initiative. Prove me wrong and I'll give you CHF10.-

hi there :


here is what we could do :


The initiative is refused and I give you CHF 75.-


The initiative is accepted and you give me CHF 75.-


The majority of the Cantons goes in the other way of the population's majority, and we keep our good thunes and just wait for another good opportunity to predict the future.


Truth of the matter is : Islam, in its Arabic and Middle-Eastern versions, is much more a cult than a religion. That dubious people may have been the first to say that publicly doesn't impair its truth. That's why people accept to blow themselves up in its name.


Regards
  #535  
Old 12.10.2009, 15:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Truth of the matter is : Islam, in its Arabic and Middle-Eastern versions, is much more a cult than a religion. That dubious people may have been the first to say that publicly doesn't impair its truth.
You amuse me. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the latter is run by the Old Boys Club.
  #536  
Old 12.10.2009, 15:37
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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...What have they done to earn a place of that significance... simply arrived in the country in the last 50 years or so and started practising their faith? ...
Another 'us -vs- them' mentality. Surely it's 'we'? We, who include painters, bankers, dancers and Muslims. And a lot of Christians. And some seksy chicks. And brain surgeons.

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In my opinion, when the religion behind it has established itself in said town for a historically significant period of time.

... but I simply from an objective point of view (i'm not remotely religious) do not believe that they have earned the right to start making such significant marks upon a city after such a short space of time, and as I said... I simply don't think it's necessary. There are hundreds of Mosques freely allowed to practise in the country... why do they need minarets rising into the sky? Can you imagine how much it would change things if they all suddenly started building them? ...
I find the premise of "earning the right" worrisome. Substitute 'them' for any other group wishing to build something and the argument falls flat.

How high do you think minarets would be? Higher than a tree? Higher than St. Peter's in Zurich? Woo, scary.



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If a country ran International trade on the basis of your logic then all of its industries would be shut down.

You seem to be happy for one civilisation to export its religion to the West while Christianity is barred or significantly impeded from being exported back.

To allow such a situation to continue isn't a sign of tolerance and openness. It is a sign of dangerous self destructive idealism.

A business couldn't survive using you idealistic principles. What makes you think that a civilisation can?

And, the West isn't so strong that it doesn't matter. It may have escaped your attention but the West's power and influence is actually declining in comparison with the rest of the world.
Tolerance isn't a commodity. Interesting you think this way. Perhaps we ought to chuck 'em all out? Send 'em home? Build a wall? Send the Buggers back!

More of this, perhaps? Villifying people (the 'we') and generating aggressive imagery?



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I think both play a part. I personally think a longer time of integration, and a more significant population would not only go hand in hand, but be a fair justification for really starting to make a physical mark on a city.
It's people's behaviour and attitude which have far more dangerous consequences for a city than mere bricks and mortar.

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...I was on a hike in the mountains last week and it was so nice. Switzerland is all about it's churches, farms, mountains, cows, cheese, clean forests, and of course the people. So why are people so bent on trying tio change this. Why can we just let Switzerland be Switzerland and enjoy its uniqueness.

The idea is if minarets flourish it will change the face of the landscape and what makes Switzerland, Switzerland. Basically, Switzerland is a Christian country. I do know that if we went to some middle east countries and we did not follow some of their traditions we would be in trouble.

Switzerland is not an open society like America. This is okay. Why can not we accept this?

Focus
How should Ireland look? Auburn haired maidens churning butter, while their freckle-faced friends rehearse Riverdance?

Sweden? Minimalist austerity, herrings and Nobel prizes?

Mexico? Colourful village festivals with fat men riding donkeys?

Are you in primary school? Switzerland is an open society. Have you ever lived in a closed one? It's not all chocolate and cowbells here



Interesting reading on the Infidels Unite site about this topic...
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  #537  
Old 12.10.2009, 15:41
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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hi there ...
Oh hai,

Let's keep it to CHF10. I'll put your offering in the minaret mosaic fund
  #538  
Old 12.10.2009, 15:54
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Why do people keep making comparisons to extreme cases in the Gulf, rather than to more applicable cases like Canada, US, UK, France, even Turkey.
Why is the Gulf classed as "extreme" ? That is where Islamic religions stem from, innit? .... Arabic countries?
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Old 12.10.2009, 16:03
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Why is the Gulf classed as "extreme" ? That is where Islamic religions stem from, innit? .... Arabic countries?
Do you know the region? Yes? Ok, then you'll know HashBrown's comparison was apples with apples / democracy with democracy, innit. So I don't get your question?
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Old 12.10.2009, 16:07
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Are you in primary school? Switzerland is an open society. Have you ever lived in a closed one? It's not all chocolate and cowbells here
Now, now, lets not get intolerant. Of course it is not all cow bells but it does have its uniqueness. That's why I am here and that's why I stay here. If I want North American culture or Middle East culture then that is where si should go.

In comparison to the open society of the US then it is a closed society. Lets not get into analyzing the pros and cons of societies. All societies have their pöluese and minuses.

The point is Switzerland has certain characteristics that gives it its identity. Is the objective to make Switzerland like the rest of the world? If it is behind or not with it, so what. Does it have to be open or closed or what ever. Switzerland has the right to to choose its identity? Does Switzerland have to be changed?

Does it have to have minartes? Who says?

I like Switzerland the way it is.

Last edited by Nickers; 12.10.2009 at 16:10. Reason: added quote formatting for clarity
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