Well, darl, everyone KNOWS it`s a "call to prayer" - just telling it like it sounds to those not speaking Arabic.

You missing the point completely about the dress code. If you did not - then may I clarrify .......... Should one be going out for a walk - you have to plan your route so you do not pass a mosque at prayer times UNLESS you pre-plan to dress appropriately. There is no way you gonna be able to borrow clothing if you caught at an inopportune moment inappropriately dressed! I think you were meaning visiting inside the buildings? If not, then my same question still applies - will it become necessary to have detour signs placed for the infidels to not infringe on the muslim worship times?

"Thin edge of the wedge" - means - first come the people with their different religions, then comes the demand for their particular worship buildings, then comes the distinctive minarets, then comes the traditional "calling to prayer", then every Friday the air begins to ring in their traditional loudspeaker conveyed five hours a day open air prayer readings, then comes the detours around their buildings together with "appropriate" dress ............ and then, one day, maybe, could happen .... (going by birth numbers) ....will arrive objections to Friday business transactions, objections to and the abolishment of Sunday as a day of rest ....... maybe even a division of the sexes in shopping malls, schools, sporting events .....?

Smoky there are Kantons here that still wont allow late or Sunday shopping! I don't think you need to fear those things in this century.

And Mohammed (PBHN) surely did not envisage the outcome of his own message way back then either.......

You'd be better off worrying about climate change, which will kill this planet off long before any of the above could hypothetically happen.

aka 'The Slippery Slope' argument.

"A classical Informal Fallacy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Reducing an argument to absurdity doesn't help clarify the issue. It's a matter of building permits for places of worship. Seeing as you have visited a mosque you'll know it's considered appropriate to wear modest clothes, just as it is in a church, synagoge, temple etc.

Challenging local sensibilities by wearing hotpants and a spaghetti top may seem like a 'Right On' thing to do, but you just end up offending people. If we want to live peacefully amongst them we behave appropriately, which many Muslim people I know here do with a lot more decorum than many locals. Including myself.

So to Minarets: are they challenging local sensibilities? Polls say no, the Right wing are outraged and we have this cumbersome debate. Again, it's not bricks and mortar with which we need concern ourselves, rather our behaviour to each other. The SVP campaign and the responses on this thread appear more concerned with fear than honesty.

__________________
Wave ¦ Synthpop ¦ 80's ¦ Alternative ¦ Party ¦ Sat 24.03 Provitreff Zurich

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gemeinde has to give planning permission for any building work. Additionally any Swiss citizen can register a complaint if they object to a building being built. Therefore it's pretty pointless amending the constitution to ban the building of minarets at federal level. Especially in view of the fact that there's only four in Switzerland.

The people who started the initiative know this of course and their real aim is more just to bait Muslims as well as cementing their hardliner image in order to win votes from some of the more racist members of Swiss society come the next elections.

Forgive me, but you are still missing the point........

I am not talking about INSIDE a mosque - I`m talking about OUTSIDE - anywhere within close proximity during worship times.......... thin edge of the wedge stuff.

But donta worry anymore, carry on droling - I rest my case.

Same time next century you gonna have to come crawling on your knees and say "You were SO right! Please forgive my short-sightedness".

ahha ha ha haaaaa cough cough ah hahaha. Tis okay, my son, you youth gotta learn things the hard way, all on your own - ignoring the words of the aged is an age old problem....the wheel just keeps right on turning.....

Shalom.

Shalom.

Is it Islam in general which provokes the "thin end" concerns, or all religions in general? Just, I like having sex but I'm not married. Am I offending the Swiss Christians?

Do you really believe Muslims in Switzerland are going to demand behaviour from non-believers without the will of the people? Are you sure you're not trolling?

(I liked the 'droling' bit, can I use that again?)

No.
1) Zürich and Basel were founded by the Romans in pre-Christian times. Things in history change.
2) Is looking at a minaret such a terrible thing for Christians of the 21st Century ?
3) There are enough Muslims, to have Mosques, just as there are enough Greek Orthodox people to have a big church and enough Russian Orthodox people to have churches. Churchtowers and Minarets are beautiful buildings
4) Average Muslims do not DISlike NON-Muslims in the way you say here. And in Switzerland, the relationship between Muslims and Christians and Buddhists is quite good, strangely enough rather better than, in many places, the relationship between Protestants and Catholics.

A few minarets will NOT change Switzerland.

And there are many churches in Arab countries and in Turkey, and I speak about active churches.

Switzerland is an open multi-linguistic country. "Open" is a difficult term. In many ways, Switzerland is a far more open society than America, while it in others is not.

The ones who want to change things are those of the SVP, who want to prohibit what was allowed all along, who want to change a tolerant and free society into a restrictive place with iron rules on anything.

You mention the UAE.

Have you been to Egypt ? With some 15 millions Christians and many churches.

Have you been to Lebanon ? With some 40% Christians and many churches.

Have you been to Syria ? With some 30% Christians and many churches.

Have you been to Jordan ? With some 20% Christians and many churches.

And in these countries you can hear churchbells.

There are also churches in the Maghreb-countries (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco), really in operation.

Nobody warns foreign tourists from walking past mosques during prayer times. This is absolutely no problem, none at all. And you should wear appropriate clothing wherever in the world you get around. And this differs from country to country and from place to place.

What you heard were the five main prayer calls, which are done over loudspeakers and on the radio. In the UAE, it consists of three parts, the actual call to prayer, a few lines out of the Koran, and a short comment on day news given by one of the Federal Imams of the UAE.

Zurich Airport and Zurich HB have "churches" integrated, which in fact also are at times open to Muslims as "mosques".

No, you will not see restrictions in Switzerland, which are not in force in an average Muslim country. And do not be blinded by the visible modernism of the UAE ! it is a very strictly religious and conservative country ! -- Btw., have you seen that beautiful Jumeirah Mosque in Dubai ? Very beautiful indeed, in the old style, in spite of being less that 20 years old. Amazing.

"have to have" ? Switzerland already HAS minarets. And up to now, Minarets could be build. THIS is the way Switzerland IS. But the SVP wants to change this. They in this point may succeed. But I hope that "Switzerland" rejects their point.

Not quite true.

One sided trade barriers have often proved to be extremely beneficial for countries blocking imports while freely exporting.

It is hard to ignore the fact that if one Religion is allowed to spread abroad while blocking other religions from spreading in its homebase, well, only someone blinded by dogma couldn't see the likely long term consequences.

But what makes you think that many Muslim immigrants think that you are part of their 'we'?

Not many Muslims are politically correct apologists. I'm not calling you a politically correct apologist by the way.

You are having a laugh. As soon are they are numerous enough they aren't shy at all about demanding behaviour from non believers.

Have you considered that perhaps there are people in Islam who dislike your left wing liberal ideas as much as you hate the ideas of anyone who doesn't share your 'lofty' ideals.

God help us if Muslim's show the same intolerance to people with ideas that disagree with them as you do.

Surely you don't believe this? The Swiss themselves take an eternity to make changes concerning their own home-grown issues; do you honestly think an ethnic minority is going to breeze in here and have everyone converted to their way of life within the decade?

You don't know Switzerland very well, do you?

Its all a question of numbers.

I would mention the expression 'thin end of the wedge' but that upsets some people so much that they start using terms like numbnuts, nazis and bigots. And think nothing of it.

So I won't.

And unless these "numbers" are from an EU country they are going to need a jolly good reason to gain entry to the country in order to settle, no?

Bit of a flaw in their plan if that is their grand scheme to take over Switzerland. Unless, of course, there is an extremist Islamic plan to schmooz and serenade the Swiss single-lady network and marry their way into the country. Hope they are good at cleaning kitchen floors...

EDIT - "thin end of the wedge" is looking a bit like a "plank" now, eh..?

Well it is actually, but only because so many Europeans have woken up in the last few years to the issue of Muslim immigration.

It is only because the Swiss have woken up that we are having this discussion.