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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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  #541  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:17
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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That could be because you don't know Arabic.

(Or maybe not... I know people who would characterize Handel's Messiah the same way, in spite of its being in English. )


You will find this true of Christian churches as well in many parts of the world. (Switzerland does seem to be more laid back about the whole thing.)

I was in Cyprus two weeks ago, and such signs were everywhere, usually in several languages. Often they have shawls and long trousers you can borrow if you ask - I thought that was a nice touch, so that everybody is welcome and nobody has to be turned away for lack of sartorial foresight.

I think this - more than any of the "skyline preservation" arguments so often advanced - is what is on people's minds. Shame the arguments are not more often made honestly, so they can be discussed honestly.
Well, darl, everyone KNOWS it`s a "call to prayer" - just telling it like it sounds to those not speaking Arabic.

You missing the point completely about the dress code. If you did not - then may I clarrify .......... Should one be going out for a walk - you have to plan your route so you do not pass a mosque at prayer times UNLESS you pre-plan to dress appropriately. There is no way you gonna be able to borrow clothing if you caught at an inopportune moment inappropriately dressed! I think you were meaning visiting inside the buildings? If not, then my same question still applies - will it become necessary to have detour signs placed for the infidels to not infringe on the muslim worship times?

"Thin edge of the wedge" - means - first come the people with their different religions, then comes the demand for their particular worship buildings, then comes the distinctive minarets, then comes the traditional "calling to prayer", then every Friday the air begins to ring in their traditional loudspeaker conveyed five hours a day open air prayer readings, then comes the detours around their buildings together with "appropriate" dress ............ and then, one day, maybe, could happen .... (going by birth numbers) ....will arrive objections to Friday business transactions, objections to and the abolishment of Sunday as a day of rest ....... maybe even a division of the sexes in shopping malls, schools, sporting events .....?
  #542  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:23
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Smoky there are Kantons here that still wont allow late or Sunday shopping! I don't think you need to fear those things in this century.
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  #543  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:33
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Smoky there are Kantons here that still wont allow late or Sunday shopping! I don't think you need to fear those things in this century.
And Mohammed (PBHN) surely did not envisage the outcome of his own message way back then either.......
  #544  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:36
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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"Thin edge of the wedge" - means - first come the people with their different religions, then comes the demand for their particular worship buildings, then comes the distinctive minarets, then comes the traditional "calling to prayer", then every Friday the air begins to ring in their traditional loudspeaker conveyed five hours a day open air prayer readings, then comes the detours around their buildings together with "appropriate" dress ............ and then, one day, maybe, could happen .... (going by birth numbers) ....will arrive objections to Friday business transactions, objections to and the abolishment of Sunday as a day of rest ....... maybe even a division of the sexes in shopping malls, schools, sporting events .....?
You'd be better off worrying about climate change, which will kill this planet off long before any of the above could hypothetically happen.
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  #545  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:37
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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"Thin edge of the wedge" - means - first come the people with their different religions, then comes the demand for their particular worship buildings, then comes the distinctive minarets, then comes the traditional "calling to prayer", then every Friday the air begins to ring in their traditional loudspeaker conveyed five hours a day open air prayer readings, then comes the detours around their buildings together with "appropriate" dress ............ and then, one day, maybe, could happen .... (going by birth numbers) ....will arrive objections to Friday business transactions, objections to and the abolishment of Sunday as a day of rest ....... maybe even a division of the sexes in shopping malls, schools, sporting events .....?
aka 'The Slippery Slope' argument.

"A classical Informal Fallacy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
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  #546  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:39
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, darl, everyone KNOWS it`s a "call to prayer" - just telling it like it sounds to those not speaking Arabic.

You missing the point completely about the dress code. If you did not - then may I clarrify .......... Should one be going out for a walk - you have to plan your route so you do not pass a mosque at prayer times UNLESS you pre-plan to dress appropriately. There is no way you gonna be able to borrow clothing if you caught at an inopportune moment inappropriately dressed! I think you were meaning visiting inside the buildings? If not, then my same question still applies - will it become necessary to have detour signs placed for the infidels to not infringe on the muslim worship times?

"Thin edge of the wedge" - means - first come the people with their different religions, then comes the demand for their particular worship buildings, then comes the distinctive minarets, then comes the traditional "calling to prayer", then every Friday the air begins to ring in their traditional loudspeaker conveyed five hours a day open air prayer readings, then comes the detours around their buildings together with "appropriate" dress ............ and then, one day, maybe, could happen .... (going by birth numbers) ....will arrive objections to Friday business transactions, objections to and the abolishment of Sunday as a day of rest ....... maybe even a division of the sexes in shopping malls, schools, sporting events .....?
Reducing an argument to absurdity doesn't help clarify the issue. It's a matter of building permits for places of worship. Seeing as you have visited a mosque you'll know it's considered appropriate to wear modest clothes, just as it is in a church, synagoge, temple etc.

Challenging local sensibilities by wearing hotpants and a spaghetti top may seem like a 'Right On' thing to do, but you just end up offending people. If we want to live peacefully amongst them we behave appropriately, which many Muslim people I know here do with a lot more decorum than many locals. Including myself.

So to Minarets: are they challenging local sensibilities? Polls say no, the Right wing are outraged and we have this cumbersome debate. Again, it's not bricks and mortar with which we need concern ourselves, rather our behaviour to each other. The SVP campaign and the responses on this thread appear more concerned with fear than honesty.
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  #547  
Old 12.10.2009, 16:52
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gemeinde has to give planning permission for any building work. Additionally any Swiss citizen can register a complaint if they object to a building being built. Therefore it's pretty pointless amending the constitution to ban the building of minarets at federal level. Especially in view of the fact that there's only four in Switzerland.

The people who started the initiative know this of course and their real aim is more just to bait Muslims as well as cementing their hardliner image in order to win votes from some of the more racist members of Swiss society come the next elections.
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  #548  
Old 12.10.2009, 17:04
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Reducing an argument to absurdity doesn't help clarify the issue. It's a matter of building permits for places of worship. Seeing as you have visited a mosque you'll know it's considered appropriate to wear modest clothes, just as it is in a church, synagoge, temple etc.

Challenging local sensibilities by wearing hotpants and a spaghetti top may seem like a 'Right On' thing to do, but you just end up offending people. If we want to live peacefully amongst them we behave appropriately, which many Muslim people I know here do with a lot more decorum than many locals. Including myself.

So to Minarets: are they challenging local sensibilities? Polls say no, the Right wing are outraged and we have this cumbersome debate. Again, it's not bricks and mortar with which we need concern ourselves, rather our behaviour to each other. The SVP campaign and the responses on this thread appear more concerned with fear than honesty.
Forgive me, but you are still missing the point........

I am not talking about INSIDE a mosque - I`m talking about OUTSIDE - anywhere within close proximity during worship times.......... thin edge of the wedge stuff.

But donta worry anymore, carry on droling - I rest my case.

Same time next century you gonna have to come crawling on your knees and say "You were SO right! Please forgive my short-sightedness".

ahha ha ha haaaaa cough cough ah hahaha. Tis okay, my son, you youth gotta learn things the hard way, all on your own - ignoring the words of the aged is an age old problem....the wheel just keeps right on turning.....

Shalom.
  #549  
Old 12.10.2009, 17:11
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Forgive me, but you are still missing the point........

I am not talking about INSIDE a mosque - I`m talking about OUTSIDE - anywhere within close proximity during worship times.......... thin edge of the wedge stuff.

But donta worry anymore, carry on droling - I rest my case.

Same time next century you gonna have to come crawling on your knees and say "You were SO right! Please forgive my short-sightedness".

ahha ha ha haaaaa cough cough ah hahaha. Tis okay, my son, you youth gotta learn things the hard way, all on your own - ignoring the words of the aged is an age old problem....the wheel just keeps right on turning.....

Shalom.
Shalom.

Is it Islam in general which provokes the "thin end" concerns, or all religions in general? Just, I like having sex but I'm not married. Am I offending the Swiss Christians?

Do you really believe Muslims in Switzerland are going to demand behaviour from non-believers without the will of the people? Are you sure you're not trolling?

(I liked the 'droling' bit, can I use that again?)
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Old 12.10.2009, 19:04
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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OK, let me see if I understood your reasons, then. I can't help feeling I have missed something, because they don't make sense and you are normally such a sensible guy.

Mosques should not be allowed to have minarets because:
1) Zürich[/Basel/Bern/Geneva] has historically been a Christian city. There are lots of old churches around and they shouldn't have to share the skyline.
2) Zürich[/Basel/Bern/Geneva] is a predominantly Christian city today. There are lots of Christians around and they shouldn't have to look at minarets.
3) There are not many Muslims and they haven't been here very long. What right have they got to put up tall buildings?
4) Muslims don't like us very much. So we shouldn't let them have minarets.

Have I got that right?
No.
1) Zürich and Basel were founded by the Romans in pre-Christian times. Things in history change.
2) Is looking at a minaret such a terrible thing for Christians of the 21st Century ?
3) There are enough Muslims, to have Mosques, just as there are enough Greek Orthodox people to have a big church and enough Russian Orthodox people to have churches. Churchtowers and Minarets are beautiful buildings
4) Average Muslims do not DISlike NON-Muslims in the way you say here. And in Switzerland, the relationship between Muslims and Christians and Buddhists is quite good, strangely enough rather better than, in many places, the relationship between Protestants and Catholics.
  #551  
Old 12.10.2009, 19:10
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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When I moved here from America a number of years ago, I wanted to change Switzerland or Switzerland to change. I came here because I wanted a different life and then I got got here I wanted it to be like home Duhh!!!. Actually, some of things I found frustrating at first and have since disappeared, I miss.

I was on a hike in the mountains last week and it was so nice. Switzerland is all about it's churches, farms, mountains, cows, cheese, clean forests, and of course the people. So why are people so bent on trying tio change this. Why can we just let Switzerland be Switzerland and enjoy its uniqueness.

The idea is if minarets flourish it will change the face of the landscape and what makes Switzerland, Switzerland. Basically, Switzerland is a Christian country. I do know that if we went to some middle east countries and we did not follow some of their traditions we would be in trouble.

Switzerland is not an open society like America. This is okay. Why can not we accept this?

Focus
A few minarets will NOT change Switzerland.

And there are many churches in Arab countries and in Turkey, and I speak about active churches.

Switzerland is an open multi-linguistic country. "Open" is a difficult term. In many ways, Switzerland is a far more open society than America, while it in others is not.

The ones who want to change things are those of the SVP, who want to prohibit what was allowed all along, who want to change a tolerant and free society into a restrictive place with iron rules on anything.
  #552  
Old 12.10.2009, 19:26
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I recently spent 7 weeks in the Emirates and not once did I hear any clanging of Catholic church bells.

Every few blocks of houses were mosques, and you knew it was Friday when the Koran would be read over loudspeakers for quite long periods, periodically throughout the day, beginning at about 4 or 5am........ and repeated at regular intervals thereafter. On other days what sounded like some sort of sing-song-wailing only would ring out to drown any outdoor discussions.

Shopping centres also contain mosques, for the faithful to attend during the day - while shopping or working - and shops in the malls are requested to turn off their radios/music during the Muslim prayer times.

The newspapers repeatedly warn foreign tourists to refrain from walking past mosques in the times leading up to, during, and after, their prayer times.... And if they HAD to be in the vicinity of a mosque - to wear "appropriate" clothing.

Will these types of intrustions/inhibitions also, one day, be applied in Switzerland? (the thin edge of the wedge type of thing?)
You mention the UAE.

Have you been to Egypt ? With some 15 millions Christians and many churches.

Have you been to Lebanon ? With some 40% Christians and many churches.

Have you been to Syria ? With some 30% Christians and many churches.

Have you been to Jordan ? With some 20% Christians and many churches.

And in these countries you can hear churchbells.

There are also churches in the Maghreb-countries (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco), really in operation.

Nobody warns foreign tourists from walking past mosques during prayer times. This is absolutely no problem, none at all. And you should wear appropriate clothing wherever in the world you get around. And this differs from country to country and from place to place.

What you heard were the five main prayer calls, which are done over loudspeakers and on the radio. In the UAE, it consists of three parts, the actual call to prayer, a few lines out of the Koran, and a short comment on day news given by one of the Federal Imams of the UAE.

Zurich Airport and Zurich HB have "churches" integrated, which in fact also are at times open to Muslims as "mosques".

No, you will not see restrictions in Switzerland, which are not in force in an average Muslim country. And do not be blinded by the visible modernism of the UAE ! it is a very strictly religious and conservative country ! -- Btw., have you seen that beautiful Jumeirah Mosque in Dubai ? Very beautiful indeed, in the old style, in spite of being less that 20 years old. Amazing.
  #553  
Old 12.10.2009, 19:46
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Does it have to be open or closed or what ever. Switzerland has the right to to choose its identity? Does Switzerland have to be changed?

Does it have to have minarets? Who says?

I like Switzerland the way it is.

"have to have" ? Switzerland already HAS minarets. And up to now, Minarets could be build. THIS is the way Switzerland IS. But the SVP wants to change this. They in this point may succeed. But I hope that "Switzerland" rejects their point.
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Old 12.10.2009, 20:20
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Moreover, in international trade periods of protectionism have never been beneficial.
Not quite true.

One sided trade barriers have often proved to be extremely beneficial for countries blocking imports while freely exporting.

It is hard to ignore the fact that if one Religion is allowed to spread abroad while blocking other religions from spreading in its homebase, well, only someone blinded by dogma couldn't see the likely long term consequences.

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Old 12.10.2009, 20:33
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Another 'us -vs- them' mentality. Surely it's 'we'? We, who include painters, bankers, dancers and Muslims. And a lot of Christians. And some seksy chicks. And brain surgeons.
But what makes you think that many Muslim immigrants think that you are part of their 'we'?

Not many Muslims are politically correct apologists. I'm not calling you a politically correct apologist by the way.
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Old 12.10.2009, 20:39
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Do you really believe Muslims in Switzerland are going to demand behaviour from non-believers without the will of the people? Are you sure you're not trolling?
You are having a laugh. As soon are they are numerous enough they aren't shy at all about demanding behaviour from non believers.

Have you considered that perhaps there are people in Islam who dislike your left wing liberal ideas as much as you hate the ideas of anyone who doesn't share your 'lofty' ideals.

God help us if Muslim's show the same intolerance to people with ideas that disagree with them as you do.
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Old 12.10.2009, 20:57
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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You are having a laugh. As soon are they are numerous enough they aren't shy at all about demanding behaviour from non believers.

Have you considered that perhaps there are people in Islam who dislike your left wing liberal ideas as much as you hate the ideas of anyone who doesn't share your 'lofty' ideals.

God help us if Muslim's show the same intolerance to people with ideas that disagree with them as you do.
Surely you don't believe this? The Swiss themselves take an eternity to make changes concerning their own home-grown issues; do you honestly think an ethnic minority is going to breeze in here and have everyone converted to their way of life within the decade?

You don't know Switzerland very well, do you?
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Old 12.10.2009, 21:21
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Surely you don't believe this? The Swiss themselves take an eternity to make changes concerning their own home-grown issues; do you honestly think an ethnic minority is going to breeze in here and have everyone converted to their way of life within the decade?

You don't know Switzerland very well, do you?
Its all a question of numbers.

I would mention the expression 'thin end of the wedge' but that upsets some people so much that they start using terms like numbnuts, nazis and bigots. And think nothing of it.

So I won't.
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Old 12.10.2009, 21:33
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Its all a question of numbers.
And unless these "numbers" are from an EU country they are going to need a jolly good reason to gain entry to the country in order to settle, no?

Bit of a flaw in their plan if that is their grand scheme to take over Switzerland. Unless, of course, there is an extremist Islamic plan to schmooz and serenade the Swiss single-lady network and marry their way into the country. Hope they are good at cleaning kitchen floors...

EDIT - "thin end of the wedge" is looking a bit like a "plank" now, eh..?
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Old 12.10.2009, 21:44
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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"thin end of the wedge" is looking a bit like a "plank" now, eh..?

Well it is actually, but only because so many Europeans have woken up in the last few years to the issue of Muslim immigration.

It is only because the Swiss have woken up that we are having this discussion.
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