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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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  #601  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:17
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Minarets are not build outside "residential" houses but outside of Mosques. It of course may be across the road, but what would be the problem with that ?
Lots of noise.
  #602  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:18
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Lots of noise.
As I understand it here, they do not call to prayer.
  #603  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:24
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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A lot of your speech is bullshit I'm afraid....

Turkey is 99% muslim. I give you the fact in villages, they are more conservative, but go in the cities, and short skirts, plenty you will see! Burka? Very very small amount. When you see one, it flash in your eyes.

Again.... yes again (sigh!) someone who thinks to know what he talks about.... but soooooo obviously doesn't know.

I forgive you, Allah is great!

Pouah ah ah ah...... I'm so funny!
You are making the logical fallacy of asserting that Turkey is representative of the whole Muslim world. Far from it.

Turkey is the most secular state which has a Muslim majority. Are you seriously claiming that the whole Muslim world is as secular and permissive as Turkey?


Everyone knows it isn't. Including you.


Please get your facts right before claiming some level of superior knowledge that you quite obviously don't possess.

  #604  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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You are making the logical fallacy of asserting that Turkey is representative of the whole Muslim world. Far from it.

Turkey is the most secular state which has a Muslim majority. Are you seriously claiming that the whole Muslim world is as secular and permissive as Turkey?


Everyone knows it isn't. Including you.


Please get your facts right before claiming some level of superior knowledge that you quite obviously don't possess.

No, YOU are making the mistake to talk about the muslim as a whole, as all the same, as a majority! And this is wrong! Read back what you wrote! You put all muslim in the same basket, not me!
  #605  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:35
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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No, YOU are making the mistake to talk about the muslim as a whole, as all the same, as a majority! And this is wrong! Read back what you wrote! You put all muslim in the same basket, not me!
OK, I'll play your game.

Can you give me some examples of Muslims standing up to condemn Muslim extremism?

I know of a few. A few from 1.7 Billion people.


Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against decent Muslims (the vast, vast majority) but it does worry me a little that they appear to do little to nothing to tame the extremists that originate from their faith.

Please prove me wrong.

I do mean that. Please prove me wrong.
  #606  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:47
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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It's precisely this fear of the different which creates for such initiatives.

What group will you take umbrage to next? Homosexuals?

I don't fear the different. I fear groups of people who will interfere with my rights.

I have nothing against gays. I've been friends with a few. Who cares.

They don't force people to wear burkas after all or treat their partners as second class citizens. In essence, they don't have a religion that tells them how to behave or more importantly, how to treat non believers.

I do fear people who refuse to think for themselves but prefer to lead their lives following the directions of a man who lived in a tent 1,400 years ago.

That is frightening.


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I don't see the 'we' in terms of ethnicity nor hair colour.
But the point is, most people do. Well, except for the hair colour bit. Birds of a feather, flock together, as they say.


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I've been contacted by several Muslim members of this Forum community who say they are appalled at being tarred with the brush of extremism by some of the comments in this thread.
Well, it is wrong to suggest that all Muslims are religious extremists, a thing that I haven't done.


It isn't factually wrong to point out that immigrant populations of Muslims often cluster together and become more religious than they ever were in their home country.
Nor is it factually wrong to point out that a large proportion of Europe's Muslims make little to no effort to integrate.

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I'm not seeking gratulation, rather fairness and equality.
We all want that.
  #607  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:52
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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OK, I'll play your game.

Can you give me some examples of Muslims standing up to condemn Muslim extremism?

I know of a few. A few from 1.7 Billion people.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against decent Muslims (the vast, vast majority) but it does worry me a little that they appear to do little to nothing to tame the extremists that originate from their faith.

Please prove me wrong.

I do mean that. Please prove me wrong.
You don't have to play my game, I don't play a game.

Do you know personally 1.7 Billion of muslim? Did you talk to them? You know a few... what is a few? 2-3? And you think it's enough to pass a judgement on it?

You want exemple. Do you need to get popular names? Does it will only make a difference for you?

I can give you hundreds names of muslim who doesn't support extremists. Who are mad to see those idiots showing an Islam who's not Islam.
My family, my friends, my co-workers, students... I can give you names of peoples from Morocco, Algeria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Turkey....

Does it will change something for you if I provide you that list of names???
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  #608  
Old 13.10.2009, 22:59
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I can give you hundreds names of muslim who doesn't support extremists. Who are mad to see those idiots showing an Islam who's not Islam.
My family, my friends, my co-workers, students... I can give you names of peoples from Morocco, Algeria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Turkey....

Does it will change something for you if I provide you that list of names???
No need for a list of people who do nothing.

Can you give me a list of Muslims who have actually stood up and condemned Muslim extremists?
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  #609  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:03
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Okay, sorry, this is slightly off the main topic - but the subject has been broached ....... and I seriously see much logic in the freedom to wear a nice big black robe-style dress and hair-covering. I think they look very elegant. And for those days when one doesnt feel like dressing up, or for a bad-hair-day .... it is the ideal answer!
  #610  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:07
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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No need for a list of people who do nothing.

Can you give me a list of Muslims who have actually stood up and condemned Muslim extremists?
Here is one exemple: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...overnment.html

Now, I'm not going to do your homework. A little research on Google will give you plenty of names of people standing up to stop extremism.

And in the same time, look for Sihem Habchi...

By the way, go to a Mosque, sit down and listen. The Imams talk all the time about tolerance and respect between muslims and with non-muslim. You will hear speech of how extremism doesn't help Islam, etc...

Again, do your homework!

Last edited by Nil; 13.10.2009 at 23:20. Reason: helping with his homework
  #611  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, it is wrong to suggest that all Muslims are religious extremists, a thing that I haven't done.
To be fair, I think your statement below kind of says that is exactly what you are suggesting...

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I do fear people who refuse to think for themselves but prefer to lead their lives following the directions of a man who lived in a tent 1,400 years ago.
Muslims with whom I studied, worked and am friends with can and do think for themselves, lead their lives fairly unspectacularly, are well rounded human beings and, whereas are practising Muslims who, by your definition, follow the teachings of a guy in a tent, don't let it take over their lives to the point where they become extremist.

This is probably true for the unspectacular and pedestrian and probably quite mundane 99.9% of Muslims around the world. Those Muslims who are probably piffed off with having to feel like they have to apologise to the sensational-press-addicted-scaredy-cats in the Western world for the lunacy of 0.1% of their brethren.
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Old 13.10.2009, 23:30
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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To be fair, I think your statement below kind of says that is exactly what you are suggesting...

"I do fear people who refuse to think for themselves but prefer to lead their lives following the directions of a man who lived in a tent 1,400 years ago."
Fair enough. I should have explained what I meant better.

Most Muslims don't take Islam that seriously and do think for themselves. Most Muslims are to some extent like most European Christians. They don't take it that seriously.

Having said that, most Muslims are perhaps more like American Christians. Quite a significant proportion of them do take it quite seriously.

Anyway, I do fear religious zealots from all religions. They are scary people.
  #613  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:36
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Fair enough. I should have explained what I meant better.

Most Muslims don't take Islam that seriously and do think for themselves. Most Muslims are to some extent like most European Christians. They don't take it that seriously.

Having said that, most Muslims are perhaps more like American Christians. Quite a significant proportion of them do take it quite seriously.

Anyway, I do fear religious zealots from all religions. They are scary people.
You just don't get it, do you? Muslims, Christians, Jews, whatever, can take their religion as seriously as they like and not be extremist. My friend is a devout Muslim but she doesn't hide explosives under her clothes or chant anti West slogans or wish death to all infidels during her coffee breaks.

You are confusing people who take their religion seriously with people who twist and interpret their religion for their own ends to inflict violence and control over others.

The two are totally different but now I am beginning to see where the problem lies..

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 13.10.2009 at 23:38. Reason: Fixed quote
  #614  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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This is probably true for the unspectacular and pedestrian and probably quite mundane 99.9% of Muslims around the world. Those Muslims who are probably piffed off with having to feel like they have to apologise to the sensational-press-addicted-scaredy-cats in the Western world for the lunacy of 0.1% of their brethren.
That is true but then, they have allowed religious hard liners to rise to positions of power in Islam. They do share some responsibilty for that.

Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of Muslims are decent people. I just wish they would tame their extremists.
If 1.7 Billion of them can't keep a lid on their religious hard liners, why should I put my trust in them to ensure that those relgious hardliners will respect my rights?
  #615  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:40
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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That is true but then, they have allowed religious hard liners to rise to positions of power in Islam. They do share some responsibilty for that.

Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of Muslims are decent people. I just wish they would tame their extremists.
If 1.7 Billion of them can't keep a lid on their religious hard liners, why should I put my trust in them to ensure that those relgious hardliners will respect my rights?
Surely you mean the Islamic world? I don't think anyone new has moved into a position of power within Islam itself for at least the last few centuries...
  #616  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:42
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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You just don't get it, do you? Muslims, Christians, Jews, whatever, can take their religion as seriously as they like and not be extremist. My friend is a devout Muslim but she doesn't hide explosives under her clothes or chant anti West slogans or wish death to all infidels during her coffee breaks.
No, I do get it. A small minority of people who are sure of things, become so sure that they carry out terrible acts in the name of god.

I would have more time for Islam if the moderates, well, moderated the extremists.

They don't do it much, do they?
  #617  
Old 13.10.2009, 23:54
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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By the way, go to a Mosque, sit down and listen. The Imams talk all the time about tolerance and respect between muslims and with non-muslim. You will hear speech of how extremism doesn't help Islam, etc...
Damn tooting it doesn't.
  #618  
Old 14.10.2009, 00:06
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Now, I'm not going to do your homework. A little research on Google will give you plenty of names of people standing up to stop extremism.

Again, do your homework!
Thanks for the link. I do respect Muslims who make an effort to liberalise and moderate the more extreme aspects of their religion.
  #619  
Old 14.10.2009, 00:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Lots of noise.
Dude, do you live anywhere near a church? On a separate note, most Muezzins can be pretty tiresome, but if you get a good one it'd almost make you wanna believe. Visit Istanbul for a cracker at the Blue Mosque. The melody of the adhan / prayer is hypnotic. Wowsers, we've been cheated with rinky-dinky bells.

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That is true but then, they have allowed religious hard liners to rise to positions of power in Islam. They do share some responsibilty for that.

Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of Muslims are decent people. I just wish they would tame their extremists. If 1.7 Billion of them can't keep a lid on their religious hard liners, why should I put my trust in them to ensure that those relgious hardliners will respect my rights?
I'm pretty certain 'those' extremists feel the same way about the West's military interventions in 'their' countries, apropo 'our' feelings towards their nutters. I wasn't too pleased Bush, Blair et al went to war in 'our' names. Doesn't make us imperial fascists, but I understand if that's the image we project. On a strategic level, the response from 'them' has been pretty much all 'they' could do, considering the economic balance of power.
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  #620  
Old 14.10.2009, 00:39
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Lots of noise.
No noise at all. Muezzins NOT allowed, no church bells, no cow bells, nothing. Very calm. No problem at all !
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