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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #621  
Old 14.10.2009, 00:47
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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You are making the logical fallacy of asserting that Turkey is representative of the whole Muslim world. Far from it.

Turkey is the most secular state which has a Muslim majority. Are you seriously claiming that the whole Muslim world is as secular and permissive as Turkey?


Everyone knows it isn't. Including you.


Please get your facts right before claiming some level of superior knowledge that you quite obviously don't possess.
Well, the majority of the Arab World, which means Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan is secular. Turkey, Albania, Bosnia are secular, as are Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan. Also most Muslim African countries are secular. And so are Malaysia and Indonesia.

Is Turkey more or less secular than Egypt ? Depends on regions rather than on the country as a whole.

Iraq ? Iraq, not least thanks to the departure of pro-fundamentalist GWB out of the White House, now is moving back towards its usual secularism.

Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen ? Difficult to forecast, but most of them under the rule of very shrewd and enlightened rulers of class, who of course realize the severe dilemma between rapid technological progress and inherent conservatism. Faults around ? Sure, heaps of them. But overall nevertheless carefully done progress.

Saudi Arabia ? Possibly THE troublespot of the future. The House of Sa'ud is as fragile as "the old house of Rocky Docky", and everything may happen there .............
  #622  
Old 14.10.2009, 00:55
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, the majority of the Arab World, which means Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan is secular. Turkey, Albania, Bosnia are secular, as are Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan. Also most Muslim African countries are secular. And so are Malaysia and Indonesia.
Which North African nation was it that the army had to step in and have a coup? Something to do with preventing a democratically elected Muslim party taking power that had promised to abolish democracy and instigate a one party Muslim state.

What was its name?

Can you jog my memory?
  #623  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:00
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

We could go around in circles examining the inadequacies of other nations... or we could focus our energies on improving our own
  #624  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:00
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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OK, I'll play your game.

Can you give me some examples of Muslims standing up to condemn Muslim extremism?

I know of a few. A few from 1.7 Billion people.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against decent Muslims (the vast, vast majority) but it does worry me a little that they appear to do little to nothing to tame the extremists that originate from their faith.

Please prove me wrong.

I do mean that. Please prove me wrong.
You ARE wrong. Most Muslims condemn Muslim extremism. "Standing up" ? How exactly ? Where ? What about ? In bed ? Your suggestion is outright silly. Nobody in Switzerland stood up against extremism in Northern Ireland. Most Muslims are not affected by extremism directly.

Back to Zurich. We lived in Zurich. An uncle lived near Aarau. And there were the "Globus Krawalle". The uncle phoned up to know whether we all were alright. He had to be told that we also only heard about it over radio and TV.

A terrorist attack in Cairo ? It is a city with (including suburbs) more than 15 mio people. So that most learn about such a thing in the news. Who to stand up to ? When most around agree that it must have been some idiots ?

And your claim that " they appear to do little to nothing to tame the extremists that originate from their faith" is rubbish. Law enforcers in countries from Morocco over Algeria and Morocco to Jordan have worked against extremists for many years, and WITH success. In these countries, just as in Europe, people are told that self-justice is not legal and that policework should be left to the police. Justice in these countries has done a lot against the extremists. A hindrance however was that such extremists got asylum in Western Europe and the USA. The USA for years harboured even some people involved in the assassination of President Mohammed Anwar al-Sadat ! Until exactly those folks tried (in vain then) to blow up the WTC. But did the USA pay respects to the warnings of President Hosni Mubarak or the ones of Algerian presidents Liamine Zeroual and Abdelaziz Bouteflika ? No, none at all .

So, you can simply get down from your high horse and get some common sense for a change !
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Old 14.10.2009, 01:03
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, the majority of the Arab World, which means Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan is secular. Turkey, Albania, Bosnia are secular, as are Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan. Also most Muslim African countries are secular. And so are Malaysia and Indonesia.
My mate lives in Indonesia. He was sitting at a roadside cafe one night and 2 Muslims jumped out of a car and started shooting at him.

Why?

He is white.

I asked him why he was living in a country where people were shooting at him. He assured me that Indonesia is a nice country.
  #626  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:04
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Which North African nation was it that the army had to step in and have a coup? Something to do with preventing a democratically elected Muslim party taking power that had promised to abolish democracy and instigate a one party Muslim state.

What was its name?

Can you jog my memory?
The party which would have got into government had less than 40% of the votes, but due to the election laws than in effect would have had a majority in parliament. Therefore, General Liamine Zeroual acted. Abdelaziz Bouteflika, on the basis of the Swiss laws he knew well, changed the system to proportionalism, and the "democratically elected" party (which was not elected according to Swiss standards) was reduced to size.

Alright, if you mean that Swiss laws are undemocratic, so be it.
  #627  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:08
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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He assured me that Indonesia is a nice country.
Your mate apparently realized that the two men first of all were criminals and second not representative. You in your statement talk as if he was wrong. Ever considered that he may be right and you wrong ?




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My mate lives in Indonesia. He was sitting at a roadside cafe one night and 2 Muslims jumped out of a car and started shooting at him.
Why?
He is white.
I asked him why he was living in a country where people were shooting at him. He assured me that Indonesia is a nice country.

He may be white. But what was the reason he was shot at ? If I meet Indonesians I am astonished about the variety of ethnics of that country. And how do you or did he know they were Muslim ?

And, btw., if two Swiss people jump out of a car and shoot at you, you most likely will not survive, as Swiss men (soldiers) learn to shoot and hit the target


And you apparently think that Muslims are "non-white" while a good part of Muslims, in the Balkans, Turkey and the Arab World ARE white. Race does not mean that somebody is not Muslim. And many Christians, in Africa or in Indonesia are very dark-skinned. This is another aspect where you simply are wrong.
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Old 14.10.2009, 01:11
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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So, you can simply get down from your high horse and get some common sense for a change !
Well you might be right, but I don't feel that you are coming from an unbiased, objective stance yourself.

I could be wrong but that's just the impression I get.

Which North African country was it that the army had to step in and have a coup to prevent Muslims seizing power and abolishing democracy?

You gave a list of states that you maintained were secular, but you left that out.

It must have been an oversight on your part.


Could you give it to me now? You seem to be a bit of an expert on these matters.
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  #629  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:18
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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He may be white. But what was the reason he was shot at ? If I meet Indonesians I am astonished about the variety of ethnics of that country. And how do you or did he know they were Muslim ?

And, btw., if two Swiss people jump out of a car and shoot at you, you most likely will not survive, as Swiss men (soldiers) learn to shoot and hit the target
Yes, I'm sure it was all a big mix up. I will tell my mate that he was wrong to tell me that it was in fact 2 Muslims who shot at him. After all he was there and neither you or I were. What would he know?

Of course you know better than he does. He has only lived there for 8 years, has an Indonesian wife and speaks Indonesian.

Of course he has got hold of the wrong end of the stick.
I will tell him that he has got it wrong. Can I pass on your e-mail and you can tell him what really happened?

He will feel so foolish after I point out that he got it all wrong.
  #630  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:21
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well you might be right, but I don't feel that you are coming from an unbiased, objective stance yourself.

I could be wrong but that's just the impression I get.

Which North African country was it that the army had to step in and have a coup to prevent Muslims seizing power and abolishing democracy?

You gave a list of states that you maintained were secular, but you left that out.

It must have been an oversight on your part.

Could you give it to me now? You seem to be a bit of an expert on these matters.

To repeat it, General Liamine Zeroul just did what General Gürsel in the Turkey of 1960 did, to topple the "elected" regime, stabilize the country and then allow real democracy to re-start. Algeria now has an elected president, an elected parliament and many elected province parliaments.

And, to be clear about it, secularist generals taking over in Iraq still are a possibility.

Amazingly, the most likely alternative to the Mullahcracy in Tehran are NOT some more or less democratically minded "democrats" but some more or less secularistically minded military leaders. You see, in Tehran, the "Mullahcratists" were weakened recently by the simple fact that they had to call in the secularist army leadership to help them out.
  #631  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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The party which would have got into government had less than 40% of the votes, but due to the election laws than in effect would have had a majority in parliament. Therefore, General Liamine Zeroual acted. Abdelaziz Bouteflika, on the basis of the Swiss laws he knew well, changed the system to proportionalism, and the "democratically elected" party (which was not elected according to Swiss standards) was reduced to size.

Alright, if you mean that Swiss laws are undemocratic, so be it.
So, in a kind of round about way, you are telling me that an unnamed country (I'll help you out, its called Algeria, you know, just south of France), was almost taken over by a Muslim fundamentalist party until the army stepped in.

No big deal. I could see why you left that information when originaly asserting how secular the Muslim world really is...


Unbiased. That's what you are. I salute you.

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  #632  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Your mate apparently realized that the two men first of all were criminals and second not representative. You in your statement talk as if he was wrong. Ever considered that he may be right and you wrong ?
Actually, my mates said "If someone f*rts in Jarkarta, the Muslims have a riot".

Spin that as you wish. I'm sure you will do your best.
  #633  
Old 14.10.2009, 01:35
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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My mate lives in Indonesia. He was sitting at a roadside cafe one night and 2 Muslims jumped out of a car and started shooting at him.

Why?

He is white.

I asked him why he was living in a country where people were shooting at him. He assured me that Indonesia is a nice country.
What evidence do you have that that is the reason they shot at him?

In addition, if two white guys jumped out of a car and shot an Indonesian, how could you deduce their motive and in addition, what conclusion would you like Indonesians to draw from the act?

Your posts seem to be aimed at inciting racial tension. What are your aims beyond banning the building of minarets in Switzerland?
  #634  
Old 14.10.2009, 07:44
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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What evidence do you have that that is the reason they shot at him?

In addition, if two white guys jumped out of a car and shot an Indonesian, how could you deduce their motive and in addition, what conclusion would you like Indonesians to draw from the act?

Your posts seem to be aimed at inciting racial tension. What are your aims beyond banning the building of minarets in Switzerland?
No, that isn't my intention at all. I mentioned by mate getting shot at by two radical Muslim extremists because you cited Indonesia as an example of a secular Muslim state. My point merely is that Indonesia isn't quite the stable secular state that you suggest. I can give a long list of other examples of conflict between Muslims and non Muslims in Indonesia if you like but I felt the story about my mate was interesting because it is based on my mates real life experience.

You also held up Algeria as an example of a secular Muslim state but failed to mention Algerian Muslims trying to abolish democracy (prevented only by a military coup), an omission that says a lot about your impartiality.
  #635  
Old 14.10.2009, 08:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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My mate lives in Indonesia. He was sitting at a roadside cafe one night and 2 Muslims jumped out of a car and started shooting at him.

Why?

He is white.

I asked him why he was living in a country where people were shooting at him. He assured me that Indonesia is a nice country.
Use an isolated incident to judge a nation and a religion. Brilliant. Indonesia has the biggest populations of Muslims in the world; two are alleged to be have taken a pot shot at a white guy therefore the region is full of dangerous extremists who shoot at white people.

Inspired .
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Old 14.10.2009, 08:50
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So, in a kind of round about way, you are telling me that an unnamed country (I'll help you out, its called Algeria, you know, just south of France), was almost taken over by a Muslim fundamentalist party until the army stepped in.

No big deal. I could see why you left that information when originaly asserting how secular the Muslim world really is...

Unbiased. That's what you are. I salute you.

Again, I first of all have to say again, that they only had less than 40% of the votes, and so not a majority, and second that I regard all fundamentalists of any kind as potentially or really dangerous. Many of them, just like the French Front National and the SVP are popularists and try to put up an agenda which pleases many and usually base success upon protest votes. When Chadli Benjadid moved to democratic elections he, an experienced general but not democrat, failed to realize that A) the people after half a century of military dictatorship was in protest mood and B) that his voting rules gave a 40% party an overall majority of 60% in parliament. Abdelaziz Bouteflika in the meantime has re-arranged the rule, so that if any party may get 40% it will have between 38 and 42 % of the seats in parliament. And the fundamentalists in real parliamentary elections have fallen back quite considerably.

So that the intervention of General Liamine Zeroual was a wise move to rescue the nation. That Algeria is "Southern France" is known to all Algerians.
  #637  
Old 14.10.2009, 08:53
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Actually, my mates said "If someone f*rts in Jarkarta, the Muslims have a riot".

Spin that as you wish. I'm sure you will do your best.
To put it short, what your mate says, is rubbish. Except that Jakarta is riots-prone, based on local "instability". But Indonesians living elsewhere are not prone to rioting, which shows that it has nothing to do with their nation or religion.
  #638  
Old 14.10.2009, 08:56
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No, that isn't my intention at all. I mentioned by mate getting shot at by two radical Muslim extremists because you cited Indonesia as an example of a secular Muslim state. My point merely is that Indonesia isn't quite the stable secular state that you suggest. I can give a long list of other examples of conflict between Muslims and non Muslims in Indonesia if you like but I felt the story about my mate was interesting because it is based on my mates real life experience.

You also held up Algeria as an example of a secular Muslim state but failed to mention Algerian Muslims trying to abolish democracy (prevented only by a military coup), an omission that says a lot about your impartiality.
No, 60% of the Muslims in Algeria did NOT vote for the fundamentalists, and General Zeroual intervened to help the majority out of trouble. And he quite obviously was right in regard to many who voted for the fundamentalists, that it in many cases was an ill-guided voting. No, the Algerian Muslims have finally managed to establish quite a useful democracy. That there was a bad hickup at the start is true, but not a basis for your accusation.
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Old 14.10.2009, 09:13
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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No, that isn't my intention at all. I mentioned by mate getting shot at by two radical Muslim extremists because you cited Indonesia as an example of a secular Muslim state. My point merely is that Indonesia isn't quite the stable secular state that you suggest. I can give a long list of other examples of conflict between Muslims and non Muslims in Indonesia if you like but I felt the story about my mate was interesting because it is based on my mates real life experience.

You also held up Algeria as an example of a secular Muslim state but failed to mention Algerian Muslims trying to abolish democracy (prevented only by a military coup), an omission that says a lot about your impartiality.
Um .. . I've mentioned neither Indonesia nor Algeria apart from replying to your gun incident post. You're getting confused, well, more confused than you already are. Unless you mean 'you' in a collective sense.
  #640  
Old 14.10.2009, 09:21
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Its just a matter of time ... if not now then in 15 years you will definitely start seeing minarets ... the ball has just been set rolling ..
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