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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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  #741  
Old 18.10.2009, 11:22
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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here's a quick thought, what happens when, the Muslims, then start their traditional prayer call, which starts at 5am?? Should we then argue that the Church bells are allowed to chime all through the night?

I grew up in a community of 40% Muslims, and in this community the Muslims were very discriminate, we received a zero tolerance of our religions, therefore, it’s difficult for me to be tolerant of their requests.
Well said.
  #742  
Old 18.10.2009, 11:29
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Well said.
Not very well said IMO. The first point is irrelevent as it'd not be practiced anyhow. If either poster had bothered to read any of this thread that point would be obvious.

Second point: if you want to lower yourself to the level of those you find contemptable, you do yourself no favours, plus you make life harder for those who play no part in the affairs of a foreign country. Is that fair play?

Where are we? In a playground?
  #743  
Old 18.10.2009, 11:41
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

What are we dealing with?

This survey gives us an insight into what Muslim students in the UK think.

The YouGov poll was conducted for the Right-wing think tank, the Centre for Social Cohesion, at 12 universities, including Imperial College and Kings College London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html

  • 40 per cent support the introduction of sharia into British law for Muslims
  • 32 percent of Muslim students feel that killing in the name of religion is justified
  • a third back the notion of a worldwide Islamic caliphate (state) based on sharia law
  • 40 per feel it is unacceptable for Muslim men and women to mix freely
  • 24 per cent do not think men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah
  • a quarter have little or no respect for homosexuals.
YouGov polled 600 Muslim students and 800 non-Muslim students at universities with a high number of Muslims.
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  #744  
Old 18.10.2009, 11:45
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Which has what to do with the Swiss minarette vote?
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What are we dealing with?

This survey gives us an insight into what Muslim students in the UK think.

The YouGov poll was conducted for the Right-wing think tank, the Centre for Social Cohesion, at 12 universities, including Imperial College and Kings College London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html
  • 40 per cent support the introduction of sharia into British law for Muslims
  • 32 percent of Muslim students feel that killing in the name of religion is justified
  • a third back the notion of a worldwide Islamic caliphate (state) based on sharia law
  • 40 per feel it is unacceptable for Muslim men and women to mix freely
  • 24 per cent do not think men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah
  • a quarter have little or no respect for homosexuals.
YouGov polled 600 Muslim students and 800 non-Muslim students at universities with a high number of Muslims.
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  #745  
Old 18.10.2009, 11:47
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?



Other threads that you might consider posting such material are here and here

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  #746  
Old 18.10.2009, 12:17
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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What are we dealing with?

This survey gives us an insight into what Muslim students in the UK think.

The YouGov poll was conducted for the Right-wing think tank, the Centre for Social Cohesion, at 12 universities, including Imperial College and Kings College London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html
  • 40 per feel it is unacceptable for Muslim men and women to mix freely
  • 24 per cent do not think men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah
  • a quarter have little or no respect for homosexuals.
YouGov polled 600 Muslim students and 800 non-Muslim students at universities with a high number of Muslims.
Apologies for snipping your quote but I wanted to concentrate on a couple of points.

Quote from Wikpedia
"In 622 the Constitution of Medina was drafted by the Islamic prophet Muhammad, outlining many of Muhammad's early reforms under Islam, including an improved legal status for women in Islam, who were generally given greater rights than women in pre-Islamic Arabia and medieval Europe. Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures until centuries later"

&
"William Montgomery Watt states that Muhammad, in the historical context of his time, can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women’s rights and improved things considerably"

I find it sad that many countries have now interpreted Islam in a way that deprives women of many rights.

On the topic of homosexuals; in Islam the treatment of this topic this is entirely based on interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah; this same Sodom and Gomorrah story also exists in Christian & Jewish religions but has not had the same effect.

Personally I do not have any strong feelings about "Minarets or not" but since Westerners have their activities limited in many Islam countries (Dress code, alcohol, interactions between different sexes, etc.) I am not against the principle of Western countries also having some constraints.
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  #747  
Old 18.10.2009, 12:36
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Based on historical experience, what begins as scaremongering rapidly degenerates into a reality.

If you dont believe, please study patterns experienced by countries where the religious demography has changed in favor of Muslims. You will be surprised by what comes out (and I am not trying to scare anyone).
There is no Muslim majority in sight in Switzerland. And no such "change" to be expected.
  #748  
Old 18.10.2009, 12:54
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Allow me to introduce Yavuz. Several generations ago, his family moved to Switzerland. His grandparents were academics and settled happily. They had a daughter here - his mother - who married a Swiss guy.

Yavuz went to Uni, changed track and studied to be a graphic designer. He now works in a leading ad agency as in-house creative director. He's Muslim. He's spiritual more than religious, but smokes, drinks and enjoys the odd Würst. He's a funny, quiet and perceptive man. He does ok financially, has a small family and never had a problem with the law.

Yavuz supports his local mosque. He does so not for the sake of a higher calling, but because he wants to look out for the others in his community. Seeing as most of his colleagues are secular, there are few places beyond each neighbourhood's Gemeindschaftszentrum for him to dedicate a little time for his community. He feels his religious upbringing taught him how to approach many of life's problems, so he leads a small group of children at the mosque in a sort of civics class, with a moral angle. He also speaks fluent Turkish and English as well as Swiss German, so helps out with new arrivals in the country who need a friendly face and advice.

Yavuz is proud of his extra-curricular work and respectful of the inherited wisdom the members of his mosque bring to his civics class. The children love his lessons. Any child is welcome there, irrespective of background.

Yavuz would like his mosque to have a minaret. He appreciates its relevence to the Muslim identity. He sees no reason to be ashamed of his heritage or religion. However, he sees himself as primarily Swiss.

"What is this fear people have?" he asks me. It's not a naïve question: he knows all about racism, intolerance and discrimination. He finds it puzzling that the people who are against minaret construction never offer alternate perspectives, ones where bricks and mortar are not seen as problems, rather people's behaviour to one another. He feels disrespected in this open democracy. His democracy. He feels there is more harm created by legally prohibiting this symbol of pride than allowing it to exist.

He feels let down by his traditionally independently minded countrymen.

Is he wrong?
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  #749  
Old 18.10.2009, 13:05
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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"What is this fear people have?" he asks me. It's not a naïve question: he knows all about racism, intolerance and discrimination. He finds it puzzling that the people who are against minaret construction never offer alternate perspectives, ones where bricks and mortar are not seen as problems, rather people's behaviour to one another. He feels disrespected in this open democracy. His democracy. He feels there is more harm created by legally prohibiting this symbol of pride than allowing it to exist.

He feels let down by his traditionally independently minded countrymen.

Is he wrong?
He seems like a reasonable man.

Could you ask his thoughts on the 32% of Muslim students in the UK who think that killing in the name of religion is justified?
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  #750  
Old 18.10.2009, 13:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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He seems like a reasonable man.

Could you ask his thoughts on the 32% of Muslim students in the UK who think that killing in the name of religion is justified?
He's far nicer than I am

Perhaps it'd be better to have a Swiss poll to compare your point. I don't see people in every corner of the globe necessarily having the exact same motivations or opinions, regardless of their tribe. I know the Expat community isn't exactly cohesive in this small country. Perhaps you could offer a poll showing Nigerian Christian attitudes? I'm sure there are some distasteful results to be found there. Let's not muddy the waters.
  #751  
Old 18.10.2009, 13:34
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Perhaps it'd be better to have a Swiss poll to compare your point. I don't see people in every corner of the globe necessarily having the exact same motivations or opinions, regardless of their tribe. I know the Expat community isn't exactly cohesive in this small country. Perhaps you could offer a poll showing Nigerian Christian attitudes? I'm sure there are some distasteful results to be found there. Let's not muddy the waters.
Surely people can't be expected to ignore the experiences of other European countries (i.e. that a YouGov poll found that 32% of UK Muslim students felt that killing in the name of religion was justified) just because they weaken your argument?

You claim that the evidence is 'out of point' while offering no Swiss evidence to undermine it.

I contend that it is an empirical piece of persuasive evidence from a European neighbour.

Last edited by gpzrd350; 18.10.2009 at 13:47.
  #752  
Old 18.10.2009, 13:46
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Surely people can't be expected to ignore the experiences of other European countries (that a YouGov poll found that 32% of UK Muslim students felt that killing in the name of religion was justified) just because they weaken your argument?

You claim that the evidence is 'out of point' while offering no Swiss evidence to undermine it.

I contend that it is an empirical piece of persuasive evidence from a European neighbour.
I offer no Swiss evidence because a) I have none to offer, and b) don't see it as a valid argument. Persuasive it may be, but it's also irrelevent.

Your assumption appears to be 'some Muslims have distasteful views, therefore all Muslims no doubt are up to no good'. I disagree with this attitude and see it causing more harm than good. It's also sailing close to the wind of bigotry and racism.

Yes, we have cause to worry about the nasty people in the World. Tarring all members of a group with the same brush is heavy handed and culturally insensitive. If you wish to compare the UK Muslim population with that of Switzerland, you'll find the demographics nowhere near as stacked here.

Considering there are already minarets in Switzerland, how do you see society adversly affected by their presence?

Have you heard about the millions of ProLife Christians campaigning in Madrid yesterday? We don't have to worry about a few chaps with funny sounding names with the Religious Christian Right on our doorstep
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  #753  
Old 18.10.2009, 14:02
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Is a survey of 632 students enough to draw a general conclusion about Muslim students in the UK? There are over 90,000 Muslim students in the UK, so I don't think it's statistically significant.

Certainly many questioned the methodology and motives of that study when it came out in 2008.

The director of the think tank who commissioned the survey had already come out with the following in an earlier speech:

"All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop."

Given the limited nature of the survey, the hidden agenda, and that they questioned students (do you know how many politicians have radical pasts!) they were still only able to say that a minority supported perhaps extreme positions.

Forgot to add: I'm not sure what that survey has to do with the Swiss minarets question anyway.

Last edited by Gastro Gnome; 18.10.2009 at 14:14.
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  #754  
Old 18.10.2009, 14:17
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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since Westerners have their activities limited in many Islam countries (Dress code, alcohol, interactions between different sexes, etc.) I am not against the principle of Western countries also having some constraints.
Someone else seeking kulturkampf! Too much Old Testament before you went to bed?
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Old 18.10.2009, 14:18
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Is a survey of 632 students enough to draw a general conclusion about Muslim students in the UK? There are over 90,000 Muslim students in the UK, so I don't think it's statistically significant.
Statistically, yes it is significant.


If you don't believe me, go study some statistics.

But, if there are 90,000 Muslim students in the UK, that means there are 35,000 Muslim students there who feel killing in the name of religion is justified.
  #756  
Old 18.10.2009, 14:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Your assumption appears to be 'some Muslims have distasteful views, therefore all Muslims no doubt are up to no good'. I disagree with this attitude and see it causing more harm than good. It's also sailing close to the wind of bigotry and racism.


Not at all. My assumption (as you put it) is merely that a significant minority of Muslims have distasteful views (which is consistent with the empirical evidence) and that that distasteful minority comes as part and parcel with the reasonable majority.

Your view appears to be that to respect the rights of the majority of reasonable Muslims, we should pretend that a significant minority of Muslims with distasteful (racist, bigoted and potentially murderous) views (for instance, 32% of Muslim students in the UK believe that killing for religion can be justified - YouGov Poll) don't exist or are of very minor importance.

Why is that?
  #757  
Old 18.10.2009, 14:49
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

Quote:
  • 40 per cent support the introduction of sharia into British law for Muslims
  • 32 percent of Muslim students feel that killing in the name of religion is justified
  • a third back the notion of a worldwide Islamic caliphate (state) based on sharia law
  • 40 per feel it is unacceptable for Muslim men and women to mix freely
  • 24 per cent do not think men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah
  • a quarter have little or no respect for homosexuals.
YouGov polled 600 Muslim students and 800 non-Muslim students at universities with a high number of Muslims.
Woops. What now? Ban non-Muslimism?
  #758  
Old 18.10.2009, 14:51
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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He's far nicer than I am

Perhaps it'd be better to have a Swiss poll to compare your point. I don't see people in every corner of the globe necessarily having the exact same motivations or opinions, regardless of their tribe. I know the Expat community isn't exactly cohesive in this small country. Perhaps you could offer a poll showing Nigerian Christian attitudes? I'm sure there are some distasteful results to be found there. Let's not muddy the waters.
Maybe you would only have to travel so far as Belfast to find support for the notion that killing in the name of religion is justified
  #759  
Old 18.10.2009, 14:56
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Maybe you would only have to travel so far as Belfast to find support for the notion that killing in the name of religion is justified
The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland wanted nothing to do with the troubles.

A small minority of extremists managed to dominate their communities and cause a lot of trouble and killing. The vast majority of reasonable people appeared to be powerless to prevent it.
  #760  
Old 18.10.2009, 15:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Not at all. My assumption (as you put it) is merely that a significant minority of Muslims have distasteful views (which is consistent with the empirical evidence) and that that distasteful minority comes as part and parcel with the reasonable majority.

Your view appears to be that to respect the rights of the majority of reasonable Muslims, we should pretend that a significant minority of Muslims with distasteful (racist, bigoted and potentially murderous) views (for instance, 32% of Muslim students in the UK believe that killing for religion can be justified - YouGov Poll) don't exist or are of very minor importance.

Why is that?
I certainly have a problem with anyone wanting to kill anyone else. I'm sure we're not looking at this issue from too distant a perspective from each other. I am firmly against using this survey to justify the banning of something which in itself is innocuous. I see this type of political manoeuvring dispicable in the infringement of liberty a resulting ban will impose, the message it sends to moderate and secular Muslims and the cringeworthy gut response by many towards anyone not wearing the same feathers. We have nothing to fear from Islam. The enemy within is far more dangerous.

So, what about the Christian Far Right in Madrid? Worried about their voice?

What about the existing minarets? Feel they've changed Swiss society?

Where would you like this society to go? More racially pure, mono-cultural white boys in chinos working in IT? Sorry if this question sounds ridiculous - it is - but what alternative is there to a healthy, multiculturally harmonious society? So far the only agitators are the Swiss Right Wing and their supporters


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Maybe you would only have to travel so far as Belfast to find support for the notion that killing in the name of religion is justified
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The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland wanted nothing to do with the troubles.

A small minority of extremists managed to dominate their communities and cause a lot of trouble and killing. The vast majority of reasonable people appeared to be powerless to prevent it.
We're definitely muddying the waters, now. Northern Ireland's troubles had a lot more than mere religious difference at it's heart, but *pretty please* let's not get off topic.
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