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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #861  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Too new to know anything about SVP. Sorry. You might explain.
Sorry, but you do not know anything about things here, and start extensive postings ????
-
some info in short :
* major parties in Switzerland, from left to right :
SP = Social Democratic Party
GP = Green Party
FDP = Freisinnig-Demokratische Partei / Liberal-Democratic Party
CVP = Christian-Democrat Party (Catholic)
EVP = Evangelic People's Party (Protestant)
SVP = Swiss People's Party (Far Right)
* laws about establishing religious buildings :
the same as for other buildings, and all subject to approvals by the village or town, and subject to complaints from individuals
--- any noise-emissions can be stopped by the police if deemed to be of a "molesting nature"
* the initiative, coming from the side of the SVP :
prohibit the building of minarets
  #862  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:31
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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No one projected anything mate. Only your imagination did.

You aren't only the 'thought police'. You fancy yourself as the 'fact police' as well.

Your kind would get on well in the information bureau in North Korea.
What message would you like us to draw from the demographic stat? Or what conclusion would you like us to draw? Precisely.

Let me just apologise for calling you a twit. That's not the best word to use.
  #863  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:33
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

I hope the polically correct cobal don't feel the need to jump on me for this post.


Where do Swiss Muslims come from?

In 2000, Switzerland had 310,807 Muslims.

24.7 % were born in Switzerland.
14 % were born in Turkey
42,8 % are from the former Yugoslavia
4.8 % from North Africa

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/01/22/publ.Document.50514.pdf

While the Federal Statistic Office has not undertaken a survey of Muslims in Switzerland since 2000, some municipalities have measured their own populations. According to an April 2009 article from the Swiss-French newspaper 24 Heures, the Muslim population in the city of Montreux rose from 4.6 percent of the population in 2000 to 6.0 percent by 2008.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=731
  #864  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:36
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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A beer seems like a good idea.

Before I wrap this up for the night, I would like to point out that it is in fact the extremists who usually end up dominating groups not subject to democracy.

Like this group.
Oooh, I almost thought we had it...

I suppost the French Resistance were considered extremist by those who'd prefer to let someone else do their dirty work. But I digress.

Your argument still punishes innocent people. No innocent people are being punished by minarets.

Where does that leave us?
  #865  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:37
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Sorry, but you do not know anything about things here, and start extensive postings ????
-
some info in short :
* major parties in Switzerland, from left to right :
SP = Social Democratic Party
GP = Green Party
FDP = Freisinnig-Demokratische Partei / Liberal-Democratic Party
CVP = Christian-Democrat Party (Catholic)
EVP = Evangelic People's Party (Protestant)
SVP = Swiss People's Party (Far Right)
* laws about establishing religious buildings :
the same as for other buildings, and all subject to approvals by the village or town, and subject to complaints from individuals
--- any noise-emissions can be stopped by the police if deemed to be of a "molesting nature"
* the initiative, coming from the side of the SVP :
prohibit the building of minarets
I hardly would say that I have 'extensive' postings. That's just laughable. And, as I pointed out, I was simply playing Devil's Advocate.
  #866  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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What message would you like us to draw from the demographic stat? Or what conclusion would you like us to draw? Precisely.
Just because you feel that an objective fact weakens your argument doesn't mean that it should be suppressed.

That's just scary.



You don't want free debate. You want to suppress ideas and facts that disagree with you.

  #867  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:39
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Sorry, to build minarets is allowed up to now. The initiative is not about whether it should be allowed but about prohibiting it. There is no campaign to have minarets, there is a campaign to have the building of new ones prohibited. So that to speak as if there were campaigns for this and that is rubbish. You turn things upside down.
Thanks for clarifying things!
  #868  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:40
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Oooh, I almost thought we had it...

I suppost the French Resistance were considered extremist by those who'd prefer to let someone else do their dirty work. But I digress.

Your argument still punishes innocent people. No innocent people are being punished by minarets.

Where does that leave us?
It leaves us in the situation where you are making a reasonable argument that strengthens your argument.
  #869  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:41
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I hope the polically correct cobal don't feel the need to jump on me for this post.


Where do Swiss Muslims come from?

In 2000, Switzerland had 310,807 Muslims.

24.7 % were born in Switzerland.
14 % were born in Turkey
42,8 % are from the former Yugoslavia
4.8 % from North Africa

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/01/22/publ.Document.50514.pdf

While the Federal Statistic Office has not undertaken a survey of Muslims in Switzerland since 2000, some municipalities have measured their own populations. According to an April 2009 article from the Swiss-French newspaper 24 Heures, the Muslim population in the city of Montreux rose from 4.6 percent of the population in 2000 to 6.0 percent by 2008.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=731
That's fine. It's a set of stats with a reference to an official stat gathering body.

But what has this to do with minaret building?
  #870  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:43
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Just because you feel that an objective fact weakens your argument doesn't mean that it should be suppressed.

That's just scary.



You don't want free debate. You want to suppress ideas and facts that disagree with you.
Er . . . I don't want to suppress any facts, but I would like you to tell us why you're drawing our attention to some in particular.
  #871  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:44
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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It leaves us in the situation where you are making a reasonable argument that strengthens your argument.
My argument has always been based on moral relativity.

So,
Where does collective punishment leave us as a society?

(Note to self: make the questions easy to understand )
  #872  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:48
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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That's fine. It's a set of stats with a reference to an official stat gathering body.

But what has this to do with minaret building?
Well, I for one find Muslims from Saudi Arabia (burkas and all that) more potentially threatening than ones from the former Yugoslavia (who tend to not be as religious, as far as I can tell). I didn't realise that so many Muslims were in fact from Europe and just moved to Switzerland.

To me and to many people, I imagine, that does make a difference.



  #873  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:52
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, I for one find Muslims from Saudi Arabia (burkas and all that) more potentially threatening than ones from the former Yugoslavia (who tend to not be as religious, as far as I can tell). I didn't realise that so many Muslims were in fact from Europe and just moved to Switzerland.

To me and to many people, I imagine, that does make a difference.
The fact that most Swiss Muslims are from the former Yugoslavia has been mentioned upthread. I raised it to show that the anti-minaret poster was misleading.

So, now that you've found that out you now find minarets less threatening?
  #874  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:54
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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My argument has always been based on moral relativity.

So,
Where does collective punishment leave us as a society?

(Note to self: make the questions easy to understand )
You see, I'm a pragmatic utilitarian - decsions based on the overall good even though a few people must lose out.

The Muslim comminity may lose some rights but that will prevent the larger non Muslim Swiss community from likley losing even more rights in the long run.

To assert that no one needs to lose out in any circumstances is naive.

"All conflict stems from scarcity" (David Hume).



  #875  
Old 19.10.2009, 20:56
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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The fact that most Swiss Muslims are from the former Yugoslavia has been mentioned upthread. I raised it to show that the anti-minaret poster was misleading.

So, now that you've found that out you now find minarets less threatening?
Its the extemist elements in the Swiss Muslim population that I find threatening. I always did. The minarets are, in a sense, a side show.

But yes, I do find Yugoslavian Muslims less threatening.
  #876  
Old 19.10.2009, 21:00
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Its the extemist elements in the Swiss Muslim population that I find threatening. I always did. The minarets are, in a sense, a side show.

But yes, I do find Yugoslavian Muslims less threatening.
I don't think anyone here is trying to support extremism (though what we might call extreme probably varies).

I think the main point many of us have been trying to get across is that fear of an extreme minority is not a reason to punish the mainstream majority, by banning the building of minarets.
  #877  
Old 19.10.2009, 21:04
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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...Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of Muslims are decent people. I just wish they would tame their extremists. If 1.7 Billion of them can't keep a lid on their religious hard liners, why should I put my trust in them to ensure that those relgious hardliners will respect my rights?
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Well, I for one find Muslims from Saudi Arabia (burkas and all that) more potentially threatening than ones from the former Yugoslavia (who tend to not be as religious, as far as I can tell). I didn't realise that so many Muslims were in fact from Europe and just moved to Switzerland.

To me and to many people, I imagine, that does make a difference.
I appreciate many people fear the unknown. We're on this thread trying to ask people to question themselves why they are prepared to oppress innocent people on a matter of architecture.

The whole initiative is a lie: it's about fear and ignorance, not minarets.

Surely nobody can object to a small, pointy tower? No,the honest ones' answer is always 'thin end of the wedge'.

I'm sure those arriving in the UK off the Windrush from the Caribbean had the same problems overcoming people's prejudices.

If you want a ban on further minaret construction, are you prepared to be part of a problem and not solution? Does anyone think for one minute the implications of this ban? Do they believe Islam will soften up in Switzerland? It'll just go away?

Your own words were: "...vast majority are decent people".

See where we're going, here?
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  #878  
Old 19.10.2009, 21:09
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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I think the main point many of us have been trying to get across is that fear of an extreme minority is not a reason to punish the mainstream majority, by banning the building of minarets.

My argument has always been (if you go far enough back) that Muslims do a very poor job of moderating their own extemists.

If they could control their own extremists, then fine. But if they don't then why should their extremists be my problem?

You know, like in the UK. Uk Muslims blowing up buses and trains.
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  #879  
Old 19.10.2009, 21:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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You know, like in the UK. Uk Muslims blowing up buses and trains.
I've stayed out of this debate but now you have mentioned the UK I feel I must step in.

Just because someone claims an act in the name of a religion does not mean they belong to that religion. I could go and murder someone in the name of Jesus Christ but that certainly does not make me a Christian.

I have many Muslim friends back in the UK. After 9/11 they experienced abuse you would have no comprehension of; being spat at when walking to Mosque, having their cars and houses trashed, threatened with violence all for following a religion that couldn't be any further from bin Laden and other misguided souls.

I was in London on July 7th when *my* city was attacked and I am very proud to be a Londoner. Part of being a Londoner means welcoming everyone, no matter what race, religion or background. We suffered 25 years of terror under the IRA and I don't remember anyone calling them "Catholic Terrorists". But now some brown people attack us they must be representing all of Islam?

Do me a favour and stop talking nonsense about my city and my friends.
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Old 19.10.2009, 21:17
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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For one they clash with local architecture.
No, they do not clash with local architecture. They are closer to Gothic churches than bank buildings
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