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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #941  
Old 20.10.2009, 02:03
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Am I allowed to be concerned about the SVP and Muslim extremists or am I only allowed an either/or?
Both, and every other religious and political group in Switzerland as well, as long as you can prove their relevance to the debate on minarets.

I'm asking everyone to stay on topic because nothing destroys a discussion like trolling. For the benefit of all members of EF, please keep to the thread topic. Thanks.
  #942  
Old 20.10.2009, 08:09
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Have you considered the possibility that people who warn of the dangers of increased Muslim expansion in Switzerland (and Europe in general) are not exaggerating the danger either?
"increased Muslim expansion in Switzerland" or overall in Europe is not a result of more or less minarets, but has been the result of increased immigration due to regional political problems (Kosovo) or the breakdown of Colonial Empires (Algeria--France / Pakistan--GB). And most people in question do not identify themselves as "Muslims" or part of a "Muslim expansion" but as Arabs (Algerians), Pakistanis, Kosovari, etc. Those people who warn about an "increased Muslim expansion" are not exaggerating, but simply are wrong. And often, as in case of the SVP or the French FN are THE danger themselves.
  #943  
Old 20.10.2009, 08:12
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Am I allowed to be concerned about the SVP and Muslim extremists or am I only allowed an either/or?
You are allowed ...., but while the SVP in this matter is relevant, Muslim extremists are not as Muslim extremists have nothing to do with Minarets.
  #944  
Old 20.10.2009, 09:57
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Don't you think that your imagination and your extrapolation are a bit out of control?
The very point of DB's example was to show that yours is.

Does this really need spelling out to you?

Not much Humean pragmatism in your stance this morning then . . .
  #945  
Old 20.10.2009, 11:33
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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It reminds me of the wife of my godfather in Geneva, who was of Jewish-Hungarian/Slovak origin. She warned me and my cousin, back in 2000, about the danger of the SVP, which reminded her of the Deutsch-Nationale Partei (who then went into coalition with the NSDAP) and the Hungarian-National Party. She told us that the SVP would try to get hold of things in Switzerland by putting restrictions onto minorities, be they Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, homosexual, etc. That they if successful would continue down the road. We both then thought her fears to be exaggerated. But when we were on the phone some time ago, we both remembered the good old aunt, and were no longer so sure that she exaggerated. We rather concluded that good old .... was possibly right after all . To me, the danger here in Switzerland is rather Fredy Heer and Christoph Blocher and Mr Bortoluzzi.
If anybody even remotely right of center is compared to Hitler, I reserve the right to compare those a little to the left of center to Mao and Stalin.
  #946  
Old 20.10.2009, 12:25
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Exactly. Often the view of many Swiss towards integration is that people must become like them - which if it really happened wouldn't make them accepted either. Ironically the SVP calls on the Zurich mosque to pull down the minaret as a "gesture to show that they are willing to integrate". If that's what integration means then I'll have no part in it

Do we reall needs place of worships with visible artitecture? Learn from jews, buddhists,hindus they only display in their own countries the relegious monuments !!They dont seek RECOGNISATION abroad!
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  #947  
Old 20.10.2009, 12:26
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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If anybody even remotely right of center is compared to Hitler, I reserve the right to compare those a little to the left of center to Mao and Stalin.
You think the SVP is a little right of center?

Your political compass needs properly calibrating.
  #948  
Old 20.10.2009, 12:28
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Do we reall needs place of worships with visible artitecture? Learn from jews, buddhists,hindus they only display in their own countries the relegious monuments !!
This is simply not true.
  #949  
Old 20.10.2009, 12:29
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Do we reall needs place of worships with visible artitecture? Learn from jews, buddhists,hindus they only display in their own countries the relegious monuments !!They integreate well abroad.
Are you smoking crack? Or just Trolling?
  #950  
Old 20.10.2009, 12:53
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Read hadiths according to Aisha which are considered STRONG hadiths by pretty much 99% of muslims. If you want to pick and choose what you believe... that is your problem. However have the courage to admit what your religion teaches. There are bad passages in the bible too.
Facts worth considering:

Ayesha was already engaged to someone else before she got engaged to Muhammad. Her Fiance was a non-Muslim named Jober Ibn Al-Moteam Ibn Oday. The people of Mecca did not object to Ayesha's engagement to Jober, presumably because she was physically mature enough to be considered for marriage (between ages 9 -12).

Girls and boys did not go through long adolescence with shopping malls, movies, Playstations and a High School Prom. Life in the 7th century was tough, a daughter would to be married off the moment she reached maturity and boys would begin working the moment they were physically able to.

Abu Bakr (Ayesha's father) is recorded to have spoken these words: "There are three things I cherish most: a look at your face, to spend my wealth on you and that my daughter is thy wife." Abu Bakr, was a key figure in the history of Islam as well as a close friend and trusted advisor of Muhammad. The joining in marriage of Muhammad and Abu Bakr's daughter solidified the relationship between them..

Muhammad was happily married to one woman, Khadijah (15 years his senior) for 24 years until her death. The wives he took in the final decade of his life (Ayesha was the only virgin) were mainly for political or dynastic reasons (Realpolitik 7th Century style). Taking all that into context, its hardly the profile of a paedophile, is it?
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  #951  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:02
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Facts worth considering:

Ayesha was already engaged to someone else before she got engaged to Muhammad. Her Fiance was a non-Muslim named Jober Ibn Al-Moteam Ibn Oday. The people of Mecca did not object to Ayesha's engagement to Jober, presumably because she was physically mature enough to be considered for marriage (between ages 9 -12).

Girls and boys did not go through long adolescence with shopping malls, movies, Playstations and a High School Prom. Life in the 7th century was tough, a daughter would to be married off the moment she reached maturity and boys would begin working the moment they were physically able to.

Abu Bakr (Ayesha's father) is recorded to have spoken these words: "There are three things I cherish most: a look at your face, to spend my wealth on you and that my daughter is thy wife." Abu Bakr, was a key figure in the history of Islam as well as a close friend and trusted advisor of Muhammad. The joining in marriage of Muhammad and Abu Bakr's daughter solidified the relationship between them..

Muhammad was happily married to one woman, Khadijah (15 years his senior) for 24 years until her death. The wives he took in the final decade of his life (Ayesha was the only virgin) were mainly for political or dynastic reasons (Realpolitik 7th Century style). Taking all that into context, its hardly the profile of a paedophile, is it?
I provided another link to other events that was removed by a mod. However be as it may... Aisha was 9 when she had sexual relations with mohhamed. That might have been ok for some Bronze Age goat herder, but not for a prophet... especially one who wants you to trust him based on his character since he was the only "witness".
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  #952  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:06
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

An old article by Fareed Zakaria - which is probably not too different from SVP's underlying fear of Islamic expansion. Thoughts?

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We Need to Get The Queen Bees

By Fareed Zakaria

Richard Nixon once remarked that had Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew lived in a different country in a different time, he would have achieved the status of a major historical figure—a Churchill, Disraeli or Gladstone. Lee recently turned 80, having for 45 years carefully observed international trends and maneuvered to keep his city-state secure and prosperous. While in Singapore last week, I asked him what he made of the European-American divide so evident in London. "The Europeans underestimate the problem of Al Qaeda-style terrorism," he said. "They think that the United States is exaggerating the threat. They compare it to their own many experiences with terror—the IRA, the Red Brigade, the Baader-Meinhof, ETA. But they are wrong."

He went on: "Al Qaeda-style terrorism is new and unique because it is global. An event in Morocco can excite the passions of extremist groups in Indonesia. There is a shared fanatical zealousness among these different extremists around the world. Many Europeans think they can finesse the problem, that if they don't upset Muslim countries and treat Muslims well, the terrorists won't target them. But look at Southeast Asia. Muslims have prospered here. But still, Muslim terrorism and militancy have infected them." Lee pointed out that Singapore and Thailand have both been targeted in recent years, though neither has mistreated its Muslim populations.

"The Americans, however, make the mistake of seeking largely a military solution. You must use force. But force will only deal with the tip of the problem. In killing the terrorists, you will only kill the worker bees. The queen bees are the preachers, who teach a deviant form of Islam in schools and Islamic centers, who capture and twist the minds of the young." Lee pointed to the trial of Amrozi bin Nurhasyim, one of the plotters of the Bali bombing, sentenced to death by an Indonesian court. On hearing the sentence he said, "I'll be happy to die a martyr. After me there will be a million Amrozis."
  #953  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:08
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Thoughts?
About minarets?

(Please?)
  #954  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Do we reall needs place of worships with visible artitecture? Learn from jews, buddhists,hindus they only display in their own countries the relegious monuments !!They dont seek RECOGNISATION abroad!
Amazing what bullshit people keep coming up with on this thread. First of all, not sure what you mean by 'their own countries'. I guess you haven't visited Canada, UK, continental USA, Hawaii, Australia, South Africa, Fiji, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Germany, Spain, France, ....

Here's a list of just the Hindu temples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hindu_temples

There is an equivalent one for Buddhists temples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhist_temples

As for synagogues, just visit any European or North American city to start with.
  #955  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:18
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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That might have been ok for some Bronze Age goat herder, but not for a prophet... especially one who wants you to trust him based on his character since he was the only "witness".
Clearly it hasn't acted as much of a barrier to trust given the billion or so followers of the religion.
  #956  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:29
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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An old article by Fareed Zakaria - which is probably not too different from SVP's underlying fear of Islamic expansion. Thoughts?
I really like Zakaria, his books are on my shelf. What he doesn't say - in the quote offered - is to tame fanatacism, room for moderates must be made. By banning further construction of minarets, this country will ostracize the moderates and Switzerland will be humiliated throughout the free-thinking world as yet another kowtow to the Far Right. And we all know how that ball starts rolling...

Let's not consider what the Islamic world will make of it (who cares, right? Surely they're all backward an' all ), but I guess they won't start thinking Switzerland is such a nice place. You can join the dots, right?

Banning minarets plays into the hands of the extemists on both sides. It suits their purpose. Your political voice - if you have one here - is needed to counter extremism. Sadly, the majority vote with kneejerk emotions and follow the flock.

Q: What message will banning minarets send to the World?
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  #957  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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About minarets?

(Please?)
As someone earlier pointed out, minarets are but a pretext - the real fear is about the expansion of Islam in the West.

Would Muslims respect the "live and let live" approach which we've adopted, or would they use their demographics to reform Western civilization according to their ideals?

The answers are less certain. Which is why Western nations are re-evaluating their previous assimilationist attitude towards Islamic adherents.

In this sense, Islam is very fundamentally different from all other religions. There are no parallel agitations over Buddhism or Flying Spaghetti Monster worshippers.


This video is a must-watch:
http://www.facebook.com/v/623484525408

It deals with demographic trends, the welfare state (which requires an increasing population - so to counter declining White birth rates, they open their doors to Muslim immigrants).


As for minarets - banning them doesn't change hearts and minds.
  #958  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:35
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Would Muslims respect the "live and let live" approach which we've adopted,


... and which the SVP and their supporters are trying to discard with this initiative?
  #959  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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As someone earlier pointed out, minarets are but a pretext - the real fear is about the expansion of Islam in the West.

Would Muslims respect the "live and let live" approach which we've adopted, or would they use their demographics to reform Western civilization according to their ideals?

The answers are less certain. Which is why Western nations are re-evaluating their previous assimilationist attitude towards Islamic adherents.

In this sense, Islam is very fundamentally different from all other religions. There are no parallel agitations over Buddhism or Flying Spaghetti Monster worshippers.


This video is a must-watch: http://www.facebook.com/v/623484525408

It deals with demographic trends, the welfare state (which requires an increasing population - so to counter declining White birth rates, they open their doors to Muslim immigrants).


As for minarets - banning them doesn't change hearts and minds.
If you've admitted that minarets are just a pretext, why are you honouring that and continuing a tangential discussion?
  #960  
Old 20.10.2009, 13:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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In this sense, Islam is very fundamentally different from all other religions
In this sense, Islam is identical to Christianity.

Or perhaps free elementary schooling for all, the welfare state, the abolition of slavery and the end of child labour in Europe were simply a consequence of market forces?
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