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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
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  #981  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:24
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Well, how would you cope with a religion - with a significant following - that is intend on destroying "live and let live"?

I'm not saying that 'real' Islam is of that variety. But there is a significant minority - who label themselves Muslims, thus hard to separate from the more "moderate" ones - that believe it's their purpose in life to do so.
The same argument that people in Weimar Republic had. Should you allow a democratically elected party to govern if it want's to destroy democracy.

Islam is an absolutist religion so giving more rights to muslims will certainly mean taking away rights from me. Already, in some goverment institutions in Britain non muslims employees are "encouraged" not to eat during ramadan.
  #982  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:26
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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The same as we coped with communism, socialism, fascism and all the other ideologies that tried to change the world.

The world adapted, and moved on.

So it goes.

(Mind, I'd miss my pints of Pedigree and my schweinsbratwurst, not to mention my foreskin...)
Yeah... we FOUGHT them, often VIOLENTLY. Fascism was defeated through war and in some ways so was communism. However people want to deal with islam by pacifying it?
  #983  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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What? Where?

Muslim terrorists in Switzerland?

I'm writing to Blick!
Anyone with decent humanity would agree with my statement. Feel free to write to Blick yourself.


At the end of the day, those who have participated in this thread can be roughly grouped into 2 categories:


1. The 1st category (Uncle Max, DB etc.) tacitly subscribe to the beliefs that "all beliefs are equal", and that people are entitled to basic civil liberties e.g. freedom of belief, freedom of expression. So their defense of Islam (thus leading them to advocate minaret construction) is fundamentally rooted in this proposition.

Despite repeated promptings from others, they repeatedly refuse to re-examine this proposition - so that "all beliefs are equal" becomes a kind of religion to them. They defend it with great zeal, and are prepared to label anyone who disagrees as "racist", "unprogressive", "fascists", "Nazis".


2. Those in the 2nd category (Canadian_dude, etc.) are genuinely worried about the expansion of Islam in the West. It is not that they are racist - they too support civil liberties and freedom of belief, and are perfectly o.k. with other religions. But they are less sure if the increasing Muslim populace would be willing to *preserve* these freedoms which they hold dear.

The proposition that "all beliefs are equal" - be it equal in veracity, equal in merits, and equal in espousing the values of freedom and respect for humanity - is blatantly absurd to them.

Like all human beans, they are not exempted from their personal prejudices. However, they have strived to take a more honest look at the Islamic faith - to examine the fundamental beliefs and the actions of Muslims of every stripe. In that sense they are more objective.


Minaret construction is just a red herring - Islam is the root question here. And I express my opinions as someone who has lived in a "moderate" Islamic state for a decade.
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  #984  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:28
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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...giving more rights to muslims will certainly mean taking away rights from me...
Taking rights away from Muslims gives you something, then, obviously
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  #985  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:30
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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This is what amazes me. People are afraid of extremism, but then fuel it with their bigoted stands. If you isolate people and taunt them and put them down and treat them as outcasts, then eventually they will act like such. A few people here talk about integration, but on the other hand prevent it by their words and actions. Unfortunately, your bigoted theoretical ideas completely get in the way of practical social existence. And then you wonder why the outsiders remain as such over generations.
Utter BS. Those people segregate themselves. When they dress in ways that are not common to our lands, when they behave in ways that are different to ours.

Nobody will bat an eyelid if a muslim woman came to work drssed in a business suit, but if she comes wrapped in a tent and then works badly because she hasn't eaten anything in the morning since it's ramadan... hell yeah she will get "isolated".

Nobody gives a damn about anyone else, but muslims tend to put themselves in the headlines way to often and mostly for the wrong reasons.
  #986  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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As soon as there is any effort to reduce my freedom . . . then I'll start complaining about that.
My concern is that at some point some people's "freedoms" will be more "important" then mine.
  #987  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:32
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

It's a bit off topic (sort of) but having watched a BBC4 documentary last night, it would seem that the Middle East was a perfectly happy and harmonious place (certainly no worse than many places on this earth), no extremism, lots of tolerance and openness and religious freedom.

That was under the Ottoman empire.

Then the British and French got stuck into it and carved it up into the dysfunctional mess it is today. The version that the west is now so afraid of. The version which has bred extremism, intolerance and an ultra conservative way of life.

If ever there was an example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" this is it. Now it seems beyond fixing.

If you can access iPlayer, I recommend watching it.
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  #988  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:34
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Personally my beef isn't with Islam. What I dislike are militant religions that increasingly seek to interfere with politics, and those are Islam and Christianity in Europe. But make no mistake, there are also militant Hindus, militant Buddhists (inform yourself about state Buddhism in Thailand and SEA for example) etc who to this day try to expand their field of influence in secular states of varying degrees, mostly with negative effects on the overall performance and peace of a country.
I percieve Europe as secular, not as Christian, and to increasingly turn to Evangelic Christianity to counter Islamic influence is to fight fire with oil.
I want a level, equal playground for all religions in Switzerland, but it should be strictly limited to the private sector. I don't like noisy towers in Switzerland, but let's rather forbid noisy towers instead of Minarets.
While their are Hindu terrorists and Buddhist fundamentalists, they are LOCAL and have no interest in shaping the politics of the West. What Buddhists in Thailand are up to is of next to no concern to me. However problems with islam have global ramifications.
  #989  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:35
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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2. Those in the 2nd category (Canadian_dude, etc.) are genuinely worried about the expansion of Islam in the West. It is not that they are racist - they too support civil liberties and freedom of belief, and are perfectly o.k. with other religions.
You obviously have not read many of CDs posts
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  #990  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Anyone with decent humanity would agree with my statement. Feel free to write to Blick yourself.


At the end of the day, those who have participated in this thread can be roughly grouped into 2 categories:


1. The 1st category (Uncle Max, DB etc.) tacitly subscribe to the beliefs that "all beliefs are equal", and that people are entitled to basic civil liberties e.g. freedom of belief, freedom of expression. So their defense of Islam (thus leading them to advocate minaret construction) is fundamentally rooted in this proposition.

Despite repeated promptings from others, they repeatedly refuse to re-examine this proposition - so that "all beliefs are equal" becomes a kind of religion to them. They defend it with great zeal, and are prepared to label anyone who disagrees as "racist", "unprogressive", "fascists", "Nazis".


2. Those in the 2nd category (Canadian_dude, etc.) are genuinely worried about the expansion of Islam in the West. It is not that they are racist - they too support civil liberties and freedom of belief, and are perfectly o.k. with other religions. But they are less sure if the increasing Muslim populace would be willing to *preserve* these freedoms which they hold dear.

The proposition that "all beliefs are equal" - be it equal in veracity, equal in merits, and equal in espousing the values of freedom and respect for humanity - is blatantly absurd to them.

Like all human beans, they are not exempted from their personal prejudices. However, they have strived to take a more honest look at the Islamic faith - to examine the fundamental beliefs and the actions of Muslims of every stripe. In that sense they are more objective.


Minaret construction is just a red herring - Islam is the root question here. And I express my opinions as someone who has lived in a "moderate" Islamic state for a decade.
Interesting suppositions you make, and in my case they're wrong and they're the red herrring.

Nowhere have I mentioned "beliefs being equal"; I believe people are equal and it's vile to assume otherwise. Nowhere have I defended Islam. Nowhere have I accused people of being "Nazis". Bigoted, yes. Them that do, is.

An apology would be accepted.


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Utter BS. Those people segregate themselves. When they dress in ways that are not common to our lands, when they behave in ways that are different to ours...
Who's "we", paleface?
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  #991  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:38
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

I don't think I've ever used the phrase "All beliefs are equal" or some such.

I'm certainly willing to discuss any notions of freedom of worship and freedom of expression you'd like to us to re-examine. My main concern is actually equality before the law.

It is the nature of freedom that at some point one person's liberties are going to conflict with those of another. Fine . . . take these on a case by case basis and seek to provide a solution that minimises harm.

So far no one on this thread has provided an argument showing the harm that minaret construction would do.

What we have had is a series of fears expressed about creeping Islamisation. Mostly these fears have been shown to be exaggerated.
  #992  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:39
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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2. Those in the 2nd category (Canadian_dude, etc.) are genuinely worried about the expansion of Islam in the West. It is not that they are racist - they too support civil liberties and freedom of belief, and are perfectly o.k. with other religions. But they are less sure if the increasing Muslim populace would be willing to *preserve* these freedoms which they hold dear.

The proposition that "all beliefs are equal" - be it equal in veracity, equal in merits, and equal in espousing the values of freedom and respect for humanity - is blatantly absurd to them.

Like all human beans, they are not exempted from their personal prejudices. However, they have strived to take a more honest look at the Islamic faith - to examine the fundamental beliefs and the actions of Muslims of every stripe. In that sense they are more objective.


Minaret construction is just a red herring - Islam is the root question here. And I express my opinions as someone who has lived in a "moderate" Islamic state for a decade.
Exactly. I would't care in the least what Buddhists are building (as long as it's not 50 meter Buddha statues downtown) or Mormons. Islam is a faith that has very negative effects on it's followers. It's dangerous and anti-Western values of democracy, rights of the individual etc.


That SOME muslims are pro-gay rights, pro feminism and would personally rip OBL to shreds if they met him means nothing, for the GENERAL direction of islam is that of opression by theocracy, obscurantism, violence, economic stagnation etc.
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  #993  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:40
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Taking rights away from Muslims gives you something, then, obviously
Building a mosque is a right, building a minaret is not.

If I wanted to build a faux Greek temple and the commune refused... have my human rights been trampled?
  #994  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:42
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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1. The 1st category (Uncle Max, DB etc.) tacitly subscribe to the belief that all beliefs are equal, and that people are entitled to basic civil liberties e.g. freedom of belief, freedom of expression. So their defense of Islam (thus leading them to advocate minaret construction) is fundamentally rooted in this proposition.
Wrong. Civil liberties yes, "all beliefs are equal" no - and you've got the "leading them to advocate" bit totally backwards too.

I have no interest in defending Islam at all. All I am here to defend is their right to exist, to practice their faith without discrimination, and to build their churches whatever way they like if the Gemeinde don't object.

The status quo, in other words.

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Minaret construction is just a red herring - Islam is the root question here.
No, in fact it is not - not here. Please read the thread title again, and please stay on topic, folks.
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  #995  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:43
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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It's a bit off topic (sort of) but having watched a BBC4 documentary last night, it would seem that the Middle East was a perfectly happy and harmonious place (certainly no worse than many places on this earth), no extremism, lots of tolerance and openness and religious freedom.

That was under the Ottoman empire.

Then the British and French got stuck into it and carved it up into the dysfunctional mess it is today. The version that the west is now so afraid of. The version which has bred extremism, intolerance and an ultra conservative way of life.

If ever there was an example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" this is it. Now it seems beyond fixing.

If you can access iPlayer, I recommend watching it.
It was anything but harmonious and was propped up by Janisassary's bayonets. It must be remembered that muslim populations shot up uncontrollably too. Also, the Arab world could not pull a Japan and try to isolate themselves from the outside world.
  #996  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:45
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Interesting suppositions you make, and in my case they're wrong and they're the red herrring.

Nowhere have I mentioned "beliefs being equal"; I believe people are equal and it's vile to assume otherwise. Nowhere have I defended Islam. Nowhere have I accused people of being "Nazis". Bigoted, yes. Them that do, is.

An apology would be accepted.

See, some people claim to be based in reality but keep that little fantasy in their back of their mind to retreat to when they feel threatened.

Either grow up and be honest with yourself, or go get a cape and play Lord of the Rings.

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  #997  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:46
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Building a mosque is a right, building a minaret is not...
Explain this point to me again. Please? Really, I ask you.

As the law stands, it's a right.

You want to ban it.

Bigot.
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  #998  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:49
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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See, some people claim to be based in reality but keep that little fantasy in their back of their mind to retreat to when they feel threatened.

Either grow up and be honest with yourself, or go get a cape and play Lord of the Rings.
You misrepresented me and I'd accept an apology. You're not obliged if you're not confident enough. I'm not waiting nor expecting.

Can you, too, explain what your quoted post means?
  #999  
Old 20.10.2009, 15:52
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Exactly. I would't care in the least what Buddhists are building (as long as it's not 50 meter Buddha statues downtown) or Mormons. Islam is a faith that has very negative effects on it's followers. It's dangerous and anti-Western values of democracy, rights of the individual etc.


That SOME muslims are pro-gay rights, pro feminism and would personally rip OBL to shreds if they met him means nothing, for the GENERAL direction of islam is that of opression by theocracy, obscurantism, violence, economic stagnation etc.
Politics is about interest groups striving for political power, so as to impose their views upon all others.


Kinda reminds me of a Churchill quote:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."
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Old 20.10.2009, 15:52
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Re: Mosques with or without Minaret?

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Already, in some goverment institutions in Britain non muslims employees are "encouraged" not to eat during ramadan.
I thought someone who claims to be so intelligent would realise that a government doesn't always speak for the people of a country?

Also, I've met enough people from Canada to know that they are not all narrow-minded and ignorant.
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