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View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 10.07.2007, 14:37
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I think a little tit for tat justifies saying no to minarets:
"It is well known that Umar Ibn al-Khattab made it a condition that Christians are not to build a church even in a land that was conquered through a peace treaty. If they had a church and the Muslims erected a city, the Muslims have the right to confiscate the church. Even if there were churches on the lands of Cairo before it was built, the Muslims would have the right to seize them after the erection of the city, because the city which is inhabited by Muslims who own mosques in it should be free of tokens of ungodliness, churches or anything similar."
(quote from "Behind the Veil" http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/B...l/content.html)
Umar Ibn al-Khattab was the "Just Caliph"


After all, let's not encourage 'em even more
http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...-TERRORISM.xml
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  #102  
Old 10.07.2007, 14:50
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Lets start with the basics what is a minaret? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret
Then, is it necesary? I believe is a way of them to try and bring their roots and bring their culture here. Just as we do (meaning all of us have core virtues that we miss, for some it could be the TV, church, whatever you "miss" from home)
However, Switzerland is a very close community, only the rich, smart, best on something, connected, etc can really make it here. With that in mind, dont you think that is a way of "protecting" the community from outside sources that might "change" it?
Just a point for discussion.
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  #103  
Old 10.07.2007, 16:26
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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I think a little tit for tat justifies saying no to minarets:
"It is well known that Umar Ibn al-Khattab made it a condition that Christians are not to build a church even in a land that was conquered through a peace treaty. If they had a church and the Muslims erected a city, the Muslims have the right to confiscate the church. Even if there were churches on the lands of Cairo before it was built, the Muslims would have the right to seize them after the erection of the city, because the city which is inhabited by Muslims who own mosques in it should be free of tokens of ungodliness, churches or anything similar."
(quote from "Behind the Veil" http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/B...l/content.html)
Umar Ibn al-Khattab was the "Just Caliph"
And how is this relevant since he ruled from AD 634-644?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar
  #104  
Old 10.07.2007, 17:23
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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And how is this relevant since he ruled from AD 634-644?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar
The relevance is to point out where it started. It continues to this day:
http://www.dhimmi.com/dhimmi_overview.htm

As the minaret is not necessary to their religion, their freedom of religion is not affected.
Like I said, it's tit-for-tat, childish retribution for subverting stuff like the Universal Declaration of Human rights http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
===="Article 18 ====Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

"Their" version: Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.alhewar.com/ISLAMDECL.html

"XII Right to Freedom of Belief, Thought and Speech
a) Every person has the right to express his thoughts and beliefs so long as he remains within the limits prescribed by the Law. No one, however, is entitled to disseminate falsehood or to circulate reports which may outrage public decency, or to indulge in slander, innuendo or to cast defamatory aspersions on other persons.
b) Pursuit of knowledge and search after truth is not only a right but a duty of every Muslim.
c) It is the right and duty of every Muslim to protest and strive (within the limits set out by the Law) against oppression even if it involves challenging the highest authority in the state.
d) There shall be no bar on the dissemination of information provided it does not endanger the security of the society or the state and is confined within the limits imposed by the Law.
e) No one shall hold in contempt or ridicule the religious beliefs of others or incite public hostility against them; respect for the religious feelings of others is obligatory on all Muslims.

XIII Right to Freedom of Religion
Every person has the right to freedom of conscience and worship in accordance with his religious beliefs."

  #105  
Old 10.07.2007, 23:19
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Marmoset, why go to some website declaring what is or isn't human rights within a religion...is it so hard to open the holy book, no matter what the religion. If I for example, came up with a website with MY ideas of my belief, and it was used as a reference point for this forum , that would be sad, to say the least....bottom line is this, what we don't know much about, gives us the creeps...if our faith is so strong, what difference does a minaret on a mosque make to us???
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  #106  
Old 10.07.2007, 23:59
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

The difference is having read those books of religion cover to cover at least three times, then deciding you don't believe, like you don't believe in Santa Claus.

It's having read those books of religion from cover to cover at least three times and having noticed the sanctions against its own believers (especially the women) for daring to have another belief, daring to not toe the line.

It's having read those books of religion from cover to cover at least three times and having noticed the sanctions against non-believers (like me, a najis kafir) and then deciding "well, this is the 21st century, let's give those desert goatherders a reality check" They want me up against the wall, well, come and get it!
  #107  
Old 11.07.2007, 00:09
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Pardon me, but is this the bible you are talking about?? The similarities of what you are saying you read are rampant in all major books of God. Perception is what sets our views apart. ..My other question to the forum still remains unanswered...is our faith so shallow that a minaret on a mosque is posing a threat???
  #108  
Old 11.07.2007, 00:36
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Pardon me, but is this the bible you are talking about?? The similarities of what you are saying you read are rampant in all major books of God. Perception is what sets our views apart. ..My other question to the forum still remains unanswered...is our faith so shallow that a minaret on a mosque is posing a threat???
I started out on the bible. The old testament is, well, erm, very loaded. (PC for once ). David sends off Uria to die on the front so he, David, can boink Bathsheba, then Elisabeth takes the blame and God says "yeah Dave, she had it coming". ZAP! Bye Lizzy. Sorry, no cherry picking for believers. READ IT COVER TO COVER.

Similarities? Um, you probably missed the earlier Mithra stories. But hey, who cares, they didn't make it into a book, unlike the bible that was voted into existence during the Council of Nicaea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea.

Perceptions? Nope, you didn't read the Qu'ran. It clearly says Muhammad is the last Prophet, abrogating all previous prophets (including Jesus, which in Islam is but a prophet, Isa), because the Jews' and Christians' revelations got adulterated/misinterpreted. Only the Qu'ran is perfect and Muhammed is the last and perfect prophet. You should read that link about the Islamic Human Rights before bringing aforementioned up

Talk about a poisoning the well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
And don't refute before reading the Qu'ran (I mean e.g. that one Sura stating no agression against the People of the Book, as opposed to the 230 "kill 'em!"'s)
  #109  
Old 11.07.2007, 12:03
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I am not really sure if you have read the books in a way to learn from it. Your way is more of critical analysis and fault finding.
Are you by any chance an auditor by profession .

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I started out on the bible. The old testament is, well, erm, very loaded. (PC for once ). David sends off Uria to die on the front so he, David, can boink Bathsheba, then Elisabeth takes the blame and God says "yeah Dave, she had it coming". ZAP! Bye Lizzy. Sorry, no cherry picking for believers. READ IT COVER TO COVER.

Similarities? Um, you probably missed the earlier Mithra stories. But hey, who cares, they didn't make it into a book, unlike the bible that was voted into existence during the Council of Nicaea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea.

Perceptions? Nope, you didn't read the Qu'ran. It clearly says Muhammad is the last Prophet, abrogating all previous prophets (including Jesus, which in Islam is but a prophet, Isa), because the Jews' and Christians' revelations got adulterated/misinterpreted. Only the Qu'ran is perfect and Muhammed is the last and perfect prophet. You should read that link about the Islamic Human Rights before bringing aforementioned up

Talk about a poisoning the well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
And don't refute before reading the Qu'ran (I mean e.g. that one Sura stating no agression against the People of the Book, as opposed to the 230 "kill 'em!"'s)
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  #110  
Old 11.07.2007, 12:31
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Just to change the discussion from Religion to Reality.

What could be a suitable business case derived from Minarets or Church towers or Temple dome. Well all such "high rise" buildings are good for Telecommunication business. Companies like swisscom, sunrise and orange can pay lot in rent to erect the Microwave dishes due to clear "line of sight". Also you can put RF and WiFi antennas for better coverage.
  #111  
Old 11.07.2007, 13:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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I am not really sure if you have read the books in a way to learn from it. Your way is more of critical analysis and fault finding.
Are you by any chance an auditor by profession .
Nope, but my profession is akin to it: bank employee

Anyway, I've learnt the standard stuff (the cherrypicking bits) back in primary and secondary school enticing me to read the whole thing.

Big disillusion: you can take any two opposite statements and find a quote justifying either side both in the Bible and the Qu'ran. Sort of cancelled them out as books of authority. Since then I go by my conscience. Works like a charm.

Oh, and to bring this back on-topic: Switzerland has a rather unique relation with religion. Here it's perfectly normal to discuss, disregard or disrespect religion, as long as you leave the church in the middle. Or "Give to Mammon which is Mammon's and give to God which is God's". Bet you never heard that one Anyway, what with Calvin and Zwingli and the mountain farmer telling the priest "holy day or no holy day, that thar cow needs milking!", cuts the mumbo-jumbo right down to size.

So, mosques with or without minarette?

Without.

Why?

Because we can
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  #112  
Old 11.07.2007, 14:15
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I am not qualified to debate on religion or the religious books. It seems that you have read more than an average person .

But as i said earlier you have read "The BOOKS" only with your critical eyes. Two opposite statements could have different references. You cannot take few clippings from different chapters and start comparing or solving a problem from the meanings. You will only get confused which shows in your statements quite clearly.
I suggest you should read some reference books which are written by religious philosophers to understand the real meaning or hidden texts between the lines.


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Anyway, I've learnt the standard stuff (the cherrypicking bits) back in primary and secondary school enticing me to read the whole thing.

Big disillusion: you can take any two opposite statements and find a quote justifying either side both in the Bible and the Qu'ran. Sort of cancelled them out as books of authority. Since then I go by my conscience. Works like a charm.
  #113  
Old 11.07.2007, 14:27
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I have actually read the Quran.....in my humble opinion, all four Books of God, came from the One God, whichever name we may give him...With all due respect to the faiths and beliefs of everyone who reads this thread/post, here's a little something to make things clearer:

”There are four holy books, Zaboor, Torah, Injeel, (bible) and Quran and there were some holy scriptures too. First Holy book was Zaboor sent through Daood (David,PBUH)) the father of Suleman (Solomon). Everyone at that time was asked to follow Zaboor but with the passage of time Zaboor lost its originality and now a days only its name is known. Then after some time Musa (Moses,PBUH) was sent on ‘Banni Israel’ (the people of Israel) and was honored to present Holly book of Torah. Everyone was asked to follow Torah and teachings of Musa (Moses,PBUH) at that time as it was the most current and unchanged version of God’s message. With the passage of time, people started changing Torah and started calling themselves as Jews. So Torah lost its originality. Many people remained same and did not or partially accepted or changed a lot of things in God’s message and started calling themselves as Hindus and Buddas and started to believe in hand made statues as their Gods.
Then after few hundred years, Issa (Jesus,PBUH) came and was honored to present the Holy book Injeel and everyone was asked to follow Issa (Jesus) and Injeel as it was the most current and unchanged version of God’s message but again with the passage of time, people started changing Injeel and started calling themselves as Christians. So Injeel lost its originality even its original name. People started using the name Bible and now days there are many versions of Bible. Every pope changed things according to his will and so it lost its originality.
Then after some time Mohammad (PBUH) came as the last prophet of God and was honored to present Quran as the last Holy book of God and it certifies all the other holy books, scriptures and prophets. Everyone was asked to follow Quran as it was and still is the most current and unchanged version of God’s message. Till now Quran is in 100% original form. Not even a single character in Quran has ever been altered or changed by any human involvement. Followers of Quran are called Muslims.
All these holly books have same level of respect in the eyes of Islam. The only difference is that books that have been altered or still being altered and changed by humans, we do not know what were the original and real words from God. Quran certifies all the other holy books and narrates the stories of all many prophets and nations and tells us the same base message.”


My point is, that we are all people of the same God, whichever faith we may have been born into, or chose. This tat for tat thing is rather childish. After this post, I will get into nothing but the topic of this thread, i.e minarets: yes or no……I think that any architectural enhancement to a place of worship is not an invasion of any sort, as long as what is in our hearts is unshakable. I rest my case


Marmoset wrote:
>And don't refute before reading the Qu'ran (I mean e.g. that one Sura stating no agression against the People of the Book, as opposed to the 230 "kill 'em!"'s)[/quote]
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  #114  
Old 11.07.2007, 15:00
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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I have actually read the Quran.....in my humble opinion, all four Books of God, came from the One God, whichever name we may give him...With all due respect to the faiths and beliefs of everyone who reads this thread/post, here's a little something to make things clearer:


Nice copy/paste below, care to give the URL?

Quote:
”There are four holy books, Zaboor, Torah, Injeel, (bible) and Quran and there were some holy scriptures too. First Holy book was Zaboor sent through Daood (David,PBUH)) the father of Suleman (Solomon). Everyone at that time was asked to follow Zaboor but with the passage of time Zaboor lost its originality and now a days only its name is known. Then after some time Musa (Moses,PBUH) was sent on ‘Banni Israel’ (the people of Israel) and was honored to present Holly book of Torah. Everyone was asked to follow Torah and teachings of Musa (Moses,PBUH) at that time as it was the most current and unchanged version of God’s message. With the passage of time, people started changing Torah and started calling themselves as Jews. So Torah lost its originality. Many people remained same and did not or partially accepted or changed a lot of things in God’s message and started calling themselves as Hindus and Buddas and started to believe in hand made statues as their Gods.
Quote:
Then after few hundred years, Issa (Jesus,PBUH) came and was honored to present the Holy book Injeel and everyone was asked to follow Issa (Jesus) and Injeel as it was the most current and unchanged version of God’s message but again with the passage of time, people started changing Injeel and started calling themselves as Christians. So Injeel lost its originality even its original name. People started using the name Bible and now days there are many versions of Bible. Every pope changed things according to his will and so it lost its originality.
Then after some time Mohammad (PBUH) came as the last prophet of God and was honored to present Quran as the last Holy book of God and it certifies all the other holy books, scriptures and prophets. Everyone was asked to follow Quran as it was and still is the most current and unchanged version of God’s message. Till now Quran is in 100% original form. Not even a single character in Quran has ever been altered or changed by any human involvement. Followers of Quran are called Muslims.
All these holly books have same level of respect in the eyes of Islam. The only difference is that books that have been altered or still being altered and changed by humans, we do not know what were the original and real words from God. Quran certifies all the other holy books and narrates the stories of all many prophets and nations and tells us the same base message.”


So to summarize: Drop your Bibles and Torahs! They went past their expiry date. Instead, buy the new *improved* Book-of-God: the Qu'ran! *badabing*

My turn for a copy/paste: is the Qu'ran preserved?
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/A..._preserved.htm
If you don't want to read it, don't click it, 'kay?

Quote:
*snip* This tat for tat thing is rather childish.


Notice: that's what I wrote.

Quote:
After this post, I will get into nothing but the topic of this thread, i.e minarets: yes or no……I think that any architectural enhancement to a place of worship is not an invasion of any sort, as long as what is in our hearts is unshakable. I rest my case


As long as it doesn't escalate into "must be higher than the church belfry to show dominance of Islam", whatever floats your boat. But the muezzin calling the faithful is right out, especially via loudspeaker

Marmoset wrote:
>And don't refute before reading the Qu'ran (I mean e.g. that one Sura stating no agression against the People of the Book, as opposed to the 230 "kill 'em!"'s)[/quote][/quote]

Care to copy/paste some on above?
  #115  
Old 11.07.2007, 15:26
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Here it is, just for you Marmoset.

http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl9a5h/lif...ereligions.htm

No more comments for you. I already have two kids!!!
  #116  
Old 11.07.2007, 15:45
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Javo, sounds like you ticked the Catholic box when you registered with the authorities. They will keep sending these until you either pay or they will eventually hit you with an order ...
Not too sure, but think I heard that you can go to your local authority & de-register your religion, all the same, you will have to pay the church tax for the time that you are registered ...
are you kidding me? the church is taxing me? wow i never thought jesus could be suck a jerk. just kidding. i never checked the catholic box when i registered. also i never remember seeing that option. after i got the tax notice, i sent the church a letter, do you think thats enough? also i dont work so there's no real income for them to be taxing... im just a student, why can the church leave me alone...

thanks for the advice polorise
  #117  
Old 11.07.2007, 15:46
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Here it is, just for you Marmoset.

http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl9a5h/lif...ereligions.htm

No more comments for you. I already have two kids!!!
What a load of horse shite! According to your link "REALITY" is-

Quote:
Reality


...But life stage starting directly after our death is a NEVER ENDING life. One day our soul will be lifted up from this planet of earth and our stay on this planet will finish. But our life stage starting after death will never have any end. It will be a forever life and an infinite life and religions tell us how to make that EVER LASTING life as a permanent peaceful place and to be successful in that forever life.

God has sent His prophets and messengers among human to deliver His message through His messengers to other human. Prophets came in different times in different regions. They delivered same message but after them their followers labeled themselves as the follower of different religions.


I think you need a reality check

Edit- I just finished reading rest of your link, I must saw that it is not only full of horse shite but bull shite as well

Last edited by pea; 11.07.2007 at 15:59.
  #118  
Old 11.07.2007, 15:47
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
As long as it doesn't escalate into "must be higher than the church belfry to show dominance of Islam", whatever floats your boat. But the muezzin calling the faithful is right out, especially via loudspeaker
an earlier post from me on this ...

Quote:
That said, Singapore has mosques with minarets, however no loudspeakers, if this is what stops Cantons from passing planning, maybe it is a good "Swiss" compromise ?
because as we all know Singapore is the Switzerland of the Far East ....
  #119  
Old 11.07.2007, 16:06
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

FYI, I don't agree with other stuff in that link, hence didn't post it here. Whats your beef anyway?!?


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What a load of horse shite! According to your link "REALITY" is-



I think you need a reality check

Edit- I just finished reading rest of your link, I must saw that it is not only full of horse shite but bull shite as well
  #120  
Old 11.07.2007, 16:11
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Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

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Till now Quran is in 100% original form. Not even a single character in Quran has ever been altered or changed by any human involvement. Followers of Quran are called Muslims.

My point is, that we are all people of the same God, whichever faith we may have been born into, or chose. This tat for tat thing is rather childish. After this post, I will get into nothing but the topic of this thread, i.e minarets: yes or no……I think that any architectural enhancement to a place of worship is not an invasion of any sort, as long as what is in our hearts is unshakable. I rest my case
I really hate it when people say "we all have the same god." no we dont. Christians have seen their god, if you believe in the holy trinity jesus appeared on earth. while jews and muslims have never seen their god(s). i think there is a big fundamental difference there!

No i dont think all religions teach the same peaceful beliefs. Some are flawed, some are taken out of context, and some differ greatly from the next. Anyone that has done religious studies or read these books would have seen that. Trying write off cultural and religious differences, so you feel a little safer about the unknown and different people, is really ignorant and insulting to the 1000s of years of history...
its time to grow-up, its not elementary school anymore, we can be different and not believe in the same things - and still be friends.

Last edited by Javo; 11.07.2007 at 16:21.
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