Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
View Poll Results: Should mosques be allowed to have a minarette?
Yes 73 52.90%
No 43 31.16%
I don't care 18 13.04%
What a minarette? 4 2.90%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09.09.2006, 16:05
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 2,334
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 3,489 Times in 1,110 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Mosques with or without Minaret?

Currently two arguments are going on about the inclusion of building applications for a minarette as part of a mosque, one in St.Gallen and one in Soluthurn.

Is this a legitimate attempt to preserve appearance and heritage, or just plain old discrimination?

Read more here: on Swissinfo
  #2  
Old 09.09.2006, 16:19
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 2,995
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote from the article:

Quote:
"The argument that minarets are a symbol of Islamic aggression is not just 100 per cent wrong, it is 200 per cent wrong," Imam Sadaqat Ahmed told swissinfo.

"The purpose of the minaret is not to dominate but to act as a visible landmark to inform people that this is a place of worship. It does not outwardly call people to worship, like bells in a Christian church, but its focus is pointed inwards towards the mosque."
I drove past the Zurich mosque the other day - looked perfectly ok to me. Considering that 4.3% of the population are Muslim (2000 census) I do find it odd that there are only four mosques in the entire country...

Surely they deserve the right to worship as well? They pay their taxes like everyone else?
  #3  
Old 09.09.2006, 16:23
heather's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: canton zurich
Posts: 138
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
heather has made some interesting contributions
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

the whole 'preserving appearance' is only acceptable if all buildings, not just chambers of faith, are built within a 'preserved appearance'. Is this an argument for no modern architecture in Switzerland? I doubt it. A minaret is no more obvious than a church steeple or bell tower.
  #4  
Old 09.09.2006, 17:48
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 2,334
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 3,489 Times in 1,110 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

The argument is purely over the minarette, an external prominent and identifiable feature of most mosques around the world.

I would say the 4.3% percentage is probably double that now, as birth rates within this group are amongst the highest in the country.

Although I am not religious, I personally have no problem with such a feature, so long as it passes to the architecture and surroundings. A blanket rejection is just plain discrimination.
  #5  
Old 10.09.2006, 12:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Just as a piece of Information about Mosques.

A Mosque is not just a place of worship but a statement about the wealth of the community that worships there. The more the community earns the more elaborate the mosques can be. It is not a requirement of mosques to have a minarette at all it is just a way of showing that the community can afford it indeed why stop at one when you can have 4! If you go into the small villages on your next carpet tour of Turkey you will see the basic mosque without minarette and if on your next trip to Istanbul you stop off at the blue Mosque you can see how elaborate they can be.

So there is no religious argument for having them especially in Switzerland where there is no call to prayer anyway. That said there is no really acceptable argument for dictating the shape and size of a religious building. It is like saying that you can build your church but it must be hexagonal...
  #6  
Old 10.09.2006, 12:58
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 2,995
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I guess the idea isn't that different to what happened in the Christian world - much of the wealth of the people was directed towards building elaborate and large churches, with much of the money heading south to the most elaborate and powerful of them all - in Rome

Given that there were something like over 400,000 muslims in the country in the 2000 census and they have just four mosques - surely those mosques should be so rich that there should be minarets spouting out all over the place?
  #7  
Old 10.09.2006, 18:05
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CH
Posts: 93
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bambi has slipped a little
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Will the minarets be eventually used for calling out the "faithfull"? If the answer to that is yes then I say NO to the minarates. I personally say NO to the minarets anyway as I have nothing but contempt for religion in general and Abrahamic faiths in particular (for their intolerant teachings towards faithless people, gays, other faiths, women, free speech,animal cruelty, lack of common sense...etc etc etc).
So any building that directly or indirectly symbolizes or takes part in brainwashing of kids...future generations is something I personally don't want to promote.

Btw I don't pay direct tax towards the church either. I made sure that my name was stuck off from the canton documents with regards to the religion I follow. Oh and I won't be bothered if ZERO new churches, mosques, temples...were built in the world

I don't buy the SVP argument though. At the end of the day the Swiss will have the final say.

I am all for construction of buildings that:

a- promote science, freedom of speech and critical thinking
b- debunk medieval man made religious teachings for the fraud they are
c- expose the arrogance of this imaginary thing called "GOD"!
d- promote true tolerance and not the religious intolerance masked as tolerance by the religious folks


Last edited by Bambi; 10.09.2006 at 18:18.
  #8  
Old 10.09.2006, 20:10
stamp's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Basel/ London ( work and play)
Posts: 72
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
stamp has no particular reputation at present
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
d- promote true tolerance and not the religious intolerance masked as tolerance by the religious folks
ok that is an interesting argument. I generally folow the principles that my mum thought me ages ago about not discussing " religion, money,politics" with other people, I think , for once, will throw in my personal ideas in there- sorry mum-:

If one calls oneself tolerant, this should include by definition, tolerance to all that doesnt share the same beliefs as you do. So by the same definition, you can not "marginalise" people who will believe in any religion (official/inofficial/middle-east based/far east based/single deity/multi deity). So if you expect these people to respect the rights of the woman, gays etc; you cant set an example by marginalising their beliefs..

No misunderstandings here; I am not promoting the application of "organised" religion as it is seen today in the eastern or the western world. I am just trying to say that, it is a very "sentsitive" and "personal" subject, so requires a bit caution when once makes any comments about it. .
  #9  
Old 10.09.2006, 22:22
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CH
Posts: 93
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bambi has slipped a little
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
ok that is an interesting argument. I generally folow the principles that my mum thought me ages ago about not discussing " religion, money,politics" with other people, I think , for once, will throw in my personal ideas in there- sorry mum-:
That is a very interesting point but when religion directly has a negative impact on world then to be silent about it's negative impact and not debate or atleast point what the text books, preachers and plenty of followers openly say is equal to sticking the head in the sand and hoping that you never end up being at the receiving end of religious intolerance.

Quote:
If one calls oneself tolerant, this should include by definition, tolerance to all that doesnt share the same beliefs as you do. S .
Stamp very good point but I never said that I myself was tolerant in a self destructive way For example if a religion or it's followers say that a faithless person can be killed for trival meaningless things then me ignoring such views is not tolerance but sucidal stupidity. Me saying no to a minaret, church etc is not going to lead to anyones death. Religious teachings and religious intolerance do and have lead to millions of lost lives.

For example recently two Iranian teenagers got hanged for being gay according to Sharia law. How is being silent about it equal to being tolerant? AIDS is out of control in African countries but catholic priests forbid use of condoms. Should one be quiet/tolerant as religion is a personal thing?

If religion is such a personal thing then what is the need for such overt non-personal buildings? Surely people can still communicate with "God" without a minaret or bell tower. The bottom line is that organized religion (cult) is not a truely personal thing. Religious ideology is expansionist at it's core and one of the central aims being to conquer new lands, faithless people and followers of other religions. Anyone who does not agree with atleast my last point is truely innocent to religious facts, religious history and ground reality of our messed up world.

Note- I deliberately did not quote any religious text from any religion because that would be very off topic (if my posts are not already) plus something I don't want to get into for various reasons. Plenty of forums like that on the net.
  #10  
Old 11.09.2006, 00:20
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,015
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,837 Times in 2,059 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I dont think this issue is about religion. I think it's just intolerence of people's differences. Intergration is a two way street if the Swiss law denies people self-expression and associates it with negative factors, then people will proberly react in a negative manner.
  #11  
Old 11.09.2006, 00:26
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 2,995
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
I dont think this issue is about religion. I think it's just intolerence of people's differences. Intergration is a two way street if the Swiss law denies people self-expression and associates it with negative factors, then people will proberly react in a negative manner.
Exactly. Often the view of many Swiss towards integration is that people must become like them - which if it really happened wouldn't make them accepted either. Ironically the SVP calls on the Zurich mosque to pull down the minaret as a "gesture to show that they are willing to integrate". If that's what integration means then I'll have no part in it
  #12  
Old 11.09.2006, 03:59
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CH
Posts: 93
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bambi has slipped a little
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
I dont think this issue is about religion. I think it's just intolerence of people's differences. Intergration is a two way street if the Swiss law denies people self-expression and associates it with negative factors, then people will proberly react in a negative manner.
I think it's both. It's about the religion thing and the integration thing. I do agree that Swiss have lot of speed bumps and barriers on their side of the two way street in the way they deal with foreigners.

As far as the religion part is concerned I am not sure if the Swiss would be as opposed to say building of a Buddhist Pagoda. Sure they would oppose it but I don't think that the feelings would run as deep. Lot of the Swiss find Islam threatening and incompatible with their values so religion definitely plays a major part in the minaret debate. I have heard this first hand from lot of the Swiss so it's not just a figment of my imagination. The fact that Islam is growing rapidly in CH adds to Swiss fear factor.

Quote:
From 2.2% of the population in 1990 to 4.3% in 2000.
  #13  
Old 17.09.2006, 22:51
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CH
Posts: 93
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bambi has slipped a little
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I was just reading Swissinfo news and came across this bit in the context side note-

"Swiss society regularly faces demands from the Muslim community over issues such as Muslim plots in cemeteries, the erection of minarets and separate swimming sessions for men and women."

Seperate session for men and women? I thought that is relevant to this topic. So as lot of you are pro minaret am I correct in assuming that you would be pro giving special muslim days at the swimming pool as well? If yes then where is the line going to be drawn?

If Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians...Spanish Italian etc all demand special days at the swimming pool then would that also be fair? Just curious.
  #14  
Old 17.09.2006, 22:55
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 2,995
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I would be careful as to the amount of weight given to some of those comments - often these things get a little blown out of proportion. Remember that separate facilities for men and women already exist - there are swimming pools dedicated only for women and pools dedicated only for men.

Anyone who is part of a community has the right to express their opinion about what they would like to see. Whether or not they actually expect to get it is another.

I'm quite vocal about wanting Sunday shopping - should that make the community nervous? I mean if I got my way with that, what would I ask for next???
  #15  
Old 17.09.2006, 23:23
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CH
Posts: 93
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bambi has slipped a little
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
I'm quite vocal about wanting Sunday shopping - should that make the community nervous? I mean if I got my way with that, what would I ask for next???
It should only make the community nervous if your eventual intention was to convert everybody to shop on sundays only Plus when the community discusses and debates with you, you would be giving logical reasons to support your argument and not stuff like "Stephen King's novel says that I must shop on sundays so I have to". I think you get my point

You are probably right about there already being seperate days for men and women. Could it be that the demand was for muslim seperate days? I don't know the details apart from the quote I posted.

Quote:
Anyone who is part of a community has the right to express their opinion about what they would like to see. Whether or not they actually expect to get it is another.
Fair point but the flip side would be that if you are minority in a community then your opinion won't carry same weight as the majority community (irrespective of the merit of the actual argument).
  #16  
Old 17.09.2006, 23:30
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 2,995
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
Plus when the community discusses and debates with you, you would be giving logical reasons to support your argument and not stuff like "Stephen King's novel says that I must shop on sundays so I have to". I think you get my point
Where do you think the whole Sunday as a day of rest and not shopping came from? Sure, I get your point - just not sure if you realise that the primary reason for us having shopping restriction is because of pressure from the church. So in that respect we are totally in agreement! That doesn't mean that I should start becoming alarmed when sectors of society express their views.

The be honest I was a little disappointed by Couchepins comments. Switzerland is SUPPOSED to be a secular society, I don't think his comments were in any way appropriate, and the timing is exceptionaly poor.

In other words, this is no time for anyone to be taking sides, especially someone in that position...
  #17  
Old 18.09.2006, 00:44
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CH
Posts: 93
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bambi has slipped a little
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

I would like sunday shopping without a doubt. Hell I want 24/7 shopping.
Anyway you are right that it's no time to take sides. The recent event in my eyes was equivalent of one thief accusing another thief of thieving
  #18  
Old 20.09.2006, 12:05
Lob's Avatar
Lob Lob is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: -
Posts: 7,795
Groaned at 42 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 1,973 Times in 1,060 Posts
Lob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret
having just been to Istanbul, I can say minarets are pretty and it's nice to hear the call to prayer from alternating mosques - but the minaret of course is now no longer a watchtower but a speaker-mount.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraum%C3%BCnster - I believe the 11am bells are ringing. It must be either that or St Peter's church ringing away.... I struggle to see how either "call" is either good or bad for me - in the end, it just becomes background noise.

It does, however, strike me that the minaret issue is purely aesthetic and the objections are to the object and not the call to prayer. How very odd.
  #19  
Old 22.09.2006, 06:54
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,015
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,837 Times in 2,059 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Sometimes i think objections towards Minarettes is a "sweep it under the carpet thing" if there is no outward expression of Islamic presence then the Swiss can feel comfy. Hence there are lots of prayer rooms and centers, few Minarettes.
As far as Muslim graveyard's go i understand the Swiss way of thinking, the Swiss cant have a permanent burial place, your loved one is on a contract of 10-20 years of rest in peace, then they must leave the spot to make room for others. If they cant why should others?
Oldhand
  #20  
Old 22.09.2006, 13:00
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 2,995
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mosques with or without Minarette?

Quote:
As far as Muslim graveyard's go i understand the Swiss way of thinking, the Swiss cant have a permanent burial place, your loved one is on a contract of 10-20 years of rest in peace, then they must leave the spot to make room for others. If they cant why should others?
Interesting idea, I never thought of it like that. That issue with the graveyards isn't just something that upset muslims, it upsets a lot of expats that I know to think they aren't going to get much time "in the ground". Personally I'd rather be cremated, but I totally understand if any culture has the wish for a permanent burial place. I haven't researched how they wanted to go about doing it, but I'd bet that they tried to purchase their own plot of land for the purpose - a private cemetary, but like the minaret were refused planning permission. So if they want to do it with their own money, and not disturb anyone else, where would the harm be? Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick there - like I said, I haven't researched this particular issue
Closed Thread

Tags
community, democracy, division, intolerance, minarettes, mosques, planning applications, racism, referendums, religion, religious expression, svp, swiss politics, tolerance




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mosques in Switzerland - Zurich & Baden ahswitzerland Other/general 5 29.07.2008 01:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0