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  #101  
Old 19.01.2012, 09:28
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Which of course SWEDEN never would do
of course they are,...but they are not crying in the "newspapers" about these kind of things......of course Sweden is not hosting nazi gold and money from dictators....but anyway, this thread was about Tunisians in Switzerland so it's not relevant...
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  #102  
Old 19.01.2012, 09:40
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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On a more serious note - I wish the Swiss government would for once be unbureaucratic and apply a simple "anti-social behaviour? asylum request denied, no further requests possible" rule. All these young trouble-makers are taking away time, space and resources from those who truly need help. I mean, for crying out loud, they are still selling package holidays to Tunisia, how "unsafe" can it be?

As for the not having money to eat - why can't they implement a system of you getting standard clothes and three square meals a day? If you want to do something away from your residence, then you have the option of getting a packed lunch. If you want money, you could be assigned tasks to do for which you get a symbolic amount. If your prime concern is to be safe and this is costing a state other than your own money, then that state only has to ensure safety and health, not "comfortable living". If it becomes apparent and generally known that all you can expect as an asylum seeker in Switzerland is to be "kept alive" and that this is generally less fun than sitting in a dark room with a wet paper bag over your head, it will become less attractive to those who come with ill intent and still a good option for those who need to be safe.

This, of course, does not solve the immediate problem of shoplifting - maybe they need to implement a system whereby the asylum seekers can only go to the shops in the company of a staff member. If you can't behave like a responsible adult, you get treated like a child. Those that prove themselves to be honest and have actively contributed to society in some way would then be able to win the right to go out on their own.
If you judge the safety of a country on whether you can get holiday there then really all hope is lost. They sell holiday's to Somalia currently, but if you have been a political activist in somalia and come here for asylum, if you are sent back because of the new "holiday" test, then you would be tortured and killed. It's not the safety of country, asylum is based on the safety of the individual when they return to the country given their personal history.

In terms of the "can't go into a shop without a staff member" and "winning the right to go out on your own" I'm lost for words. They are people, not four year old naughty children.
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  #103  
Old 19.01.2012, 09:59
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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of course Sweden is not hosting nazi gold and money from dictators....
I don't know if they have it anymore, but they did indeed host nazi gold.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/40519.stm

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  #104  
Old 19.01.2012, 11:10
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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If you judge the safety of a country on whether you can get holiday there then really all hope is lost. They sell holiday's to Somalia currently, but if you have been a political activist in somalia and come here for asylum, if you are sent back because of the new "holiday" test, then you would be tortured and killed. It's not the safety of country, asylum is based on the safety of the individual when they return to the country given their personal history.

In terms of the "can't go into a shop without a staff member" and "winning the right to go out on your own" I'm lost for words. They are people, not four year old naughty children.
The government has changed in Tunisia now and I seriously doubt that every single one of these young men are rampant political activists. So for someone who is not politically active in a dictatorship, Tunisia is safe enough.

Four year old children are people too - people who have not quite yet learned the proper social norms and legal restrictions. Shoplifting and then urinating in the offices of the police when caught is pretty much the behaviour of a small child.
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  #105  
Old 19.01.2012, 11:11
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Correct. In 1972, three years after Ghaddafi seized power, he bought a corvette built in Italy and equipped with two or three Swiss Oerlikon anti-aircraft guns, typically useful for killing families of refugees. Any more examples?
In 2004, Mugabe wiped out an entire village using a sub-atomic air-to-ground raclette launcher.
In 2007, Mubarak tortured 27 dissidents by drowning them in hot chocolate while playing the Alphorn at them.
The list goes on.
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  #106  
Old 19.01.2012, 11:16
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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And they really need to hurry up these application reviews, not knowing is probably as frustrating as the lack of money or rights. Genuine asylum seekers should be able to get on with rebuilding their lives as quickly as possible as I do not doubt that all they want is to work for their living and be safe.
One of the reasons the process is so slow is that the asylum seekers, with the support of hordes of lawyers and humans rights organisations, are bogging down the system in paperwork and challenging even the most obvious of decisons. This is costing the taxpayer millions as well as binding resources that should be used to help those genuinely in need.
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  #107  
Old 19.01.2012, 11:41
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

Asyl seekers are allowed three attempts to submit their form as an official asyl seeker. That's right.... three attempts. This process usually takes about 1.5 years. After the third letter of refusal, three things happen:

1. they are shipped back to their homeland
2. they flee the center
3. There are some countries that do not allow refugees to return so Switzerland puts them into a new program where refugees are allowed to stay and are supported by the government. It's like a welfare program for people they don't know what to do with. These people are not allowed to work but can continue their stay in Switzerland. I can't remember the correct term for this.

I was given this information by a refugee center employee. If my facts are wrong, please feel free to correct them.
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  #108  
Old 19.01.2012, 12:22
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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One of the reasons the process is so slow is that the asylum seekers, with the support of hordes of lawyers and humans rights organisations, are bogging down the system in paperwork and challenging even the most obvious of decisons. This is costing the taxpayer millions as well as binding resources that should be used to help those genuinely in need.
hmm you don't like human rights organization do you? It's fine for you if one dies of a heart attack in a plane because forced/beaten by police agents to get in the jet. All you need is to throw a few thousands CHF to the family somewhere in africa...it's cheaper than handling here. If you want to send someone HOME you need to know WHERE it is and WHO he is. What you seem to ignore is that process is slow due to identification issues and embassies not cooperating with swiss government.


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Asyl seekers are allowed three attempts to submit their form as an official asyl seeker. That's right.... three attempts. This process usually takes about 1.5 years. After the third letter of refusal, three things happen:

1. they are shipped back to their homeland
2. they flee the center
3. There are some countries that do not allow refugees to return so Switzerland puts them into a new program where refugees are allowed to stay and are supported by the government. It's like a welfare program for people they don't know what to do with. These people are not allowed to work but can continue their stay in Switzerland. I can't remember the correct term for this.

I was given this information by a refugee center employee. If my facts are wrong, please feel free to correct them.
why bother send them in a train and throw them in the mediteranean sea..they'll swim back home. And if they see a mermaid she will either change sea-side or they will sink when making lip-noise or smootching attempts.
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  #109  
Old 19.01.2012, 12:42
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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hmm you don't like human rights organization do you? It's fine for you if one dies of a heart attack in a plane because forced/beaten by police agents to get in the jet. All you need is to throw a few thousands CHF to the family somewhere in africa...it's cheaper than handling here. If you want to send someone HOME you need to know WHERE it is and WHO he is. What you seem to ignore is that process is slow due to identification issues and embassies not cooperating with swiss government.
The entire human rights story around asylum has grown into an industry. There are hordes of human rights lawyers who don't care one way or another about the people they pretend to be helping but see their fat paycheque and throw sticks into the system at every possible opportunity to slow it down so they can write down more hours. Is it asking for too much to have some simple rules by which you can determine who can stay and who can't that can be tested quickly and then implemented. Lack of cooperation would automatically disqualify the applicant.
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  #110  
Old 19.01.2012, 12:43
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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hmm you don't like human rights organization do you? It's fine for you if one dies of a heart attack in a plane because forced/beaten by police agents to get in the jet. All you need is to throw a few thousands CHF to the family somewhere in africa...it's cheaper than handling here. If you want to send someone HOME you need to know WHERE it is and WHO he is. What you seem to ignore is that process is slow due to identification issues and embassies not cooperating with swiss government.
If people refuse to cooperate, then why should we cooperate with them? Why should we foot the bill for the consequences of countries not being able to get their act together? Where is the incentive for such countries to do so if their citizens can just run away and come back with "severance pay" and the government gets aid money for being disorganised and corrupt? Of course the embassies will not cooperate, it's much better for them to keep people away, one less problem.

My point is, why can the system not allow for speeding up the process for those who are happy to cooperate and integrate? Why should we waste time on people who have thrown away their passports and refuse to follow the proper procedures?
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  #111  
Old 19.01.2012, 12:45
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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In 2004, Mugabe wiped out an entire village using a sub-atomic air-to-ground raclette launcher.
In 2007, Mubarak tortured 27 dissidents by drowning them in hot chocolate while playing the Alphorn at them.
The list goes on.
Well, I personally prefer the Pilatus planes used to drop cluster bombs in Africa... that's how you create refugees in the first place.

http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...PC-9-im-Tschad
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  #112  
Old 19.01.2012, 12:57
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

just to avoid circling around the topic, let's make a few things clear:

1) we are talking here in this very thread about the north-african/tunisian asylseekers in Switzerland.

2) we all more or less agree that all these asylseekers are not here for political reasons but for economical reasons.

3) we all more or less agree that they should not stay here given the law on asylseekers and the Schengen-Dublin agreement.

4) the key point is HOW do you deal with it! Some of you just think it's very simple: ship them back or kick them out. Yes of course but where given the lack of cooperation from embassies and the asylseekers. if they give their identity they will be kicked back! Therefore they won't do it.
The challenge is to find a human solution that respects the dignity of everyone including swiss authorities.

So please suggest realistic and constructive solutions on how to kick them back!


PS: I am the first one who wants to kick them back. My car's window was broken to steal a few objects by one of those asylseekers.
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  #113  
Old 19.01.2012, 12:57
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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and also don't forget that Switzerland sold weapons to these Dictators...which ironically was used to kill the families of the refugees which are here now...
BTW: World's largest arms exporters 2001-2010 according to wikipedia:

Sweden ranks 8th (US$4.9 billion)
Switzerland ranks 13th (US$2.5 billion)
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  #114  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:05
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Well, I personally prefer the Pilatus planes used to drop cluster bombs in Africa... that's how you create refugees in the first place.

http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...PC-9-im-Tschad
You omit to mention that Pilatus planes are the world's standard training turbo-prop airplanes, none of them have any weapon system whatsoever.
Obviously machine guns can be mounted on any of these type of planes, but the same can be said of any other civilian aircraft or helicopter. I think it would only be fair to mention that, since you seem insinuate that Swiss companies sell military airplanes to dictators, which it does not, is has even stopped selling civilian Pilatus airplanes to instable regimes.

If you want to accuse Switzerland of something more substantial you have to look at grenade and ammunition delivery to the US and UK army used in the Iraq war. A large proportion of hand grenades in use are Swiss made, propably not with this one though..

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  #115  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:06
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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BTW: World's largest arms exporters 2001-2010 according to wikipedia:

Sweden ranks 8th (US$4.9 billion)
Switzerland ranks 13th (US$2.5 billion)
Don't bother, OSueco isn't very fond of facts.
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  #116  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:09
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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4) the key point is HOW do you deal with it! Some of you just think it's very simple: ship them back or kick them out. Yes of course but where given the lack of cooperation from embassies and the asylseekers. if they give their identity they will be kicked back! Therefore they won't do it.
The challenge is to find a human solution that respects the dignity of everyone including swiss authorities.

So please suggest realistic and constructive solutions on how to kick them back!
Tie the governments cooperation in repatriations with our cooperation in other fields, such as a) aid b) Visa issues c) market access, tariffs d) political cooperation. A key demand from the SVP for years, unfortunately not pursued much by Calmy-Rey (social-democrats) as foreign minister...

The message should be clear; if you want to continue to benefit from aid, technology transfer, investment and preferred market access you have to cooperate in repatriations as well as effective border control.
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  #117  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:23
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Tie the governments cooperation in repatriations with our cooperation in other fields, such as a) aid b) Visa issues c) market access, tariffs d) political cooperation. A key demand from the SVP for years, unfortunately not pursued much by Calmy-Rey (social-democrats) as foreign minister...

The message should be clear; if you want to continue to benefit from aid, technology transfer, investment and preferred market access you have to cooperate in repatriations as well as effective border control.
Can I ask what we do with countries that don't accept asylum seekers back ? China, for example, does not accept Asylum seekers back. And Switzerland needs trade with China, as all countries do. This wonderfully simple model of asylum seekers being kept like little children only allowed out when accompanied by a responsible citizen and just posted back to their home country within a few minutes of arriving here - how would it deal with such countries ?
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  #118  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:36
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Can I ask what we do with countries that don't accept asylum seekers back ? China, for example, does not accept Asylum seekers back.
Surely that is the least of our worries.

Firstly, Chinese only make up a tiny proportion of all asylum seekers.

Secondly, why tell the Chinese authorities that the person demanded asylum. Just tell them the person was on extended vacations in Switzerland and is now being sent back as their visum expired. Or are the Chinese now also refusing to take back vacationers?
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Old 19.01.2012, 13:40
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

For those of you fluent in German, here's an excerpt from the Kanton Aargau website that answers many of your questions:
see http://www.ag.ch/sozialdienst/de/pub...lte_fragen.php
Stimmt es, dass die meisten Asylsuchenden nur Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge sind?

Die Anerkennungsquote ist tatsächlich tief. Das heisst allerdings nicht, dass alle anderen Personen Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge sind. Es trifft aber zu, dass ein wesentlicher Teil der Migrantinnen und Migranten versucht über das Asylverfahren in der Schweiz zu einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung und einer Erwerbsmöglichkeit zu gelangen, um ihre wirtschaftliche Situation zu verbessern.

Gibt es eigentlich noch echte Flüchtlinge?


Siehe Antwort Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge.


Warum bearbeitet die Schweiz die Gesuche nicht schneller und schafft die Leute im Anschluss sofort aus?

Das Bundesamt für Flüchtlinge entscheidet rund drei Viertel aller Asylgesuche innert 3 Monaten. Zum Teil werden Entscheide bereits an der Grenzstelle gefällt. Ein Grossteil der Gesuchsteller führen jedoch gegen diesen erstinstanzlichen Entscheid bei der Asylrekurskommission Beschwerde. Die Beschwerden und die Schwierigkeiten bei der Identitätsabklärung und der Papierbeschaffung verzögern den Vollzug der Wegweisung.


Warum arbeiten die Asylsuchende nicht?
Während der ersten drei Monate unterstehen die Asylsuchenden einem gesetzlichen Arbeitsverbot. Nach dieser Zeit dürfen sie grundsätzliche einer Erwerbstätigkeit nachgehen, sofern ihr Verfahren nicht bereits rechtskräftig entschieden und sie aus der Schweiz weg gewiesen werden. Entsprechende Arbeitsgesuche werden durch das Migrationsamt entschieden.


Ich habe gehört, dass die Schweiz abgewiesene Asylsuchende weiterhin unterstützt. Stimmt das?
Ja, abgewiesenen Asylsuchenden, die bei der Papierbeschaffung nicht kooperieren, können die Fürsorgeleistungen auf ein absolutes Minimum reduziert werden.


Wieso werden kriminelle Asylsuchende nicht sofort ausgeschafft?
Kriminelle Asylsuchende werden grundsätzlich durch die Strafverfolgungsbehörden verfolgt und auch verurteilt. Haftstrafen müssen verbüsst werden. In der Folge werden die Asylsuchenden auch ausgeschafft, sofern für sie Papiere beschafft werden können. Dies hängt von der Person aber auch vom Willen des Heimatlandes ab. Die Zwangsmassnahme (Ausschaffungshaft) im Ausländerrecht ist zeitlich begrenzt.


Ich höre immer wieder, dass Asylsuchende nicht überall gleich viel bekommen. In Genf etwa bekämen sie mehr als im Aargau. Existieren diese Unterschiede und woher rühren sie?
Das Bundesamt für Flüchtlinge als Subventionsbehörde entschädigt die Kantone für die Ausgaben im Asylbereich. Diese Abgeltungen bestehen aus verschiedenen Pauschalen, die die unterschiedlichen Kosten in den Kantonen berücksichtigen (Mieten, Krankenkassen usw.). Die Kantone sind aber frei, wie sie die Bemessung und Ausrichtung der Fürsorge ausgestalten. Es ist aber so, dass sich die Kantone dabei an die kantonale Philosophie zur Ausgestaltung der Sozialhilfe anlehnen. Der Kanton Genf richtet grundsätzlich eher hohe, der Kanton Aargau eher tiefe Sozialhilfebeiträge aus.


Können die Asylsuchenden wohnen wo sie wollen oder besteht eine Meldepflicht?
Asylsuchende können den Wohnort grundsätzlich selber wählen, sofern sie wirtschaftlich selbständig sind. Bis es jedoch soweit ist werden sie in der Regel in Kollektivunterkünften des Kantons untergebracht.


Stimmt es, dass die UNO für die Asylsuchenden zahlt und nicht die Schweiz?
Weder die UNO noch andere Dritte leisten einen Beitrag an die Aufwendungen des Asylwesens in der Schweiz. Im letzten Jahrzehnt hat der Bund im Durchschnitt rund eine Milliarde Franken für die direkten Kosten aus dem Asylbereich aufgewendet. Wenn man die indirekten Kosten (Polizei, Justiz, Schule, Gemeinden etc.) dazurechnet, verdoppelt oder verdreifacht sich dieser Betrag.


Warum können Asylsuchende nicht bei ihren Verwandten wohnen?
In der Regel wohnen Asylsuchende mindestens während der ersten Zeit des Verfahrens in Strukturen des Kantonalen Sozialdienstes. Das macht auch Sinn. Während dieser Zeit stehen sie für die verfahrensrechtlichen Schritte zur Verfügung und die Folgemassnahmen der grenzsanitarischen Untersuchung können gemacht werden. Weiter haben wir Gelegenheit den Asylsuchenden etwas Deutsch und "Gesellschaftskunde" zu vermitteln. Verwandte in direkter auf- und absteigender Linie können selbstverständlich zusammen wohnen, wenn es die jeweiligen räumlichen Verhältnisse zu lassen.


Die Asylsuchende haben alle Handy's. Wer bezahlt diese?
Es trifft zu, dass die meisten Asylsuchenden über Handy's verfügen. Handy's mit Easy-Card sind leicht zu beschaffen. Woher die Asyl Suchenden die Mittel dafür haben, entzieht sich unserer Kenntnis. Weder der Kantonale Sozialdienst noch die Gemeinde zahlen Telefonrechnungen für Asylsuchende.


Es heisst immer, die Leute würden zurückgeschoben, wenn sie zum Beispiel schon in Deutschland ein Gesuch gestellt haben. Welche Mittel existieren, dies mit Sicherheit zu bestimmen?
Wenn der Verdacht besteht, dass Asylsuchende bereits in einem verfolgungssicheren Drittstaat ein Asylgesuch gestellt haben, werden diese Staaten von der Schweiz angefragt. Trifft dies zu und bestehen mit diesem Staat Rückübernahmeabkommen, werden die Asylsuchenden in der Regel diesem Staat überstellt.


Warum werden Kleinkriminelle einfach wieder laufen gelassen? Sollte man die nicht besser sofort ausschaffen?
Wegen Vergehen oder kleiner Delikte wie Schwarzfahren oder einmaliger Ladendiebstahl wird ein Asyl Suchender nicht als Krimineller betrachtet. Er wird in dieser Angelegenheit vernommen und meist mittels Strafbefehl gebüsst. Solche Strafen, falls es sich nicht um Wiederholungstaten handelt, haben keine Einfluss auf das Asylverfahren. Werden schwerer Delikte nachgewiesen erfolgt eine Verurteilung ( Vgl. hiezu Frage: "Warum werden kriminelle Asylsuchende nicht gleich ausgeschafft?")


Alle Asylsuchenden sind Schwarzfahrer. Was tun Sie dagegen?
Schwarzfahren ist ein Problem, dass primär die Personentransportunternehmen angehen müssten. Wir unsererseits machen die Asylsuchenden eindringlich darauf aufmerksam, dass Schwarzfahren in der Schweiz kein Gentleman-Delikt ist und strafrechtliche Folgen haben kann. Wir fordern die Asylsuchenden auch auf, die Bussen zu zahlen. Hier spielt aber, wie in anderen Bereichen auch, die Eigenverantwortung der Asylsuchenden und ihre Verantwortung gegenüber der Gesellschaft des Aufnahmestaates. Asylsuchende sind erwachsene, eigenverantwortliche Menschen, wir können und wollen sie nicht "bevormunden". Werden Termine für Asylsuchende behördlich angeordnet, werden ihnen die Transportkosten entschädigt.


Asylsuchende werden finanziell unterstützt, besitzen aber ein Auto. Das ist störend.
Asylsuchende, welche ihren Lebensunterhalt selber bestreiten, dürfen auch ein Auto besitzen. Nicht aber wenn sie durch den Kanton unterstützt werden müssen. Ein autofahrender Asylsuchender muss jedoch nicht zwingend Eigentümer des Fahrzeuges sein. Asylsuchende, welche bei der Motorfahrzeugkontrolle einen Führerschein beantragen, erhalten diesen, wenn Sie die Voraussetzungen dafür erfüllen, unabhängig der Herkunft und der finanziellen Verhältnisse der Gesuchsteller.
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Surely that is the least of our worries.

Firstly, Chinese only make up a tiny proportion of all asylum seekers.

Secondly, why tell the Chinese authorities that the person demanded asylum. Just tell them the person was on extended vacations in Switzerland and is now being sent back as their visum expired. Or are the Chinese now also refusing to take back vacationers?
hmm... I'm not sure but I think they might see through that one, they are pretty switched on over there.

Ok I think I will stop here, the logical-solution argument is unanswerable from a cold-light-of-day perspective.

Consider however that when you send your asylum seekers back they might be killed. So if they are hungry in switzerland, so they steal a loaf of bread, so they get automatically deported, then they might be shot on their return. Not sure if that really means anything to anyone over here, after all you can all agree "that'll teach them not to steal". Of course, they would be unlikely to steal ever again, because you can't, when your not alive.
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