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  #121  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:48
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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You omit to mention that Pilatus planes are the world's standard training turbo-prop airplanes, none of them have any weapon system whatsoever.
Obviously machine guns can be mounted on any of these type of planes, but the same can be said of any other civilian aircraft or helicopter. I think it would only be fair to mention that, since you seem insinuate that Swiss companies sell military airplanes to dictators, which it does not, is has even stopped selling civilian Pilatus airplanes to instable regimes.
I am sorry, but there is a difference between a Pilatus "trainer" and "any other civilian aircraft".
- They are only officially a trainer as the countries that bought them do not have anything more serious to be trained for.
- They have "strong points" under their wings specifically designed to attach arms. A PC 9 can carry a metric ton of weapons. Show me a civilian airplane that can do anything similar.
- The customers don't even hide their plans. The Iraqi air force had Pilatus in a tender for a "counter insurgency" ground support plane. How do you support ground forces without the plan to arm the plane?
- they are much faster and more agile than any civilian aircraft. Because civilians cannot afford so strong engines in a hobby plane... the Pilatus performance is close to WW2 piston planes.
- They are not the standard trainer but infamous as "poor mans airforce". They were used by every villain in the book: Darfur, check. The poison gas dropped by Saddam on the Kurds? A Pilatus. The Burmese junta bombing minorities? Ditto.

I know that some central Swiss politicians and lobby groups bang for decades the "they are only planes" drum. Fact is that this is not true - they are the only "civilian" planes that can so easily be armed and are perfectly designed for ground support. In the 80s, the company still openly advertised this... in short: the company manages to keep a loophole open for their business. It is legal and does not count as weapon. But it is plain common sense that a plane that is and always has been used as a weapon should count... the proof is not even hidden, half of middle american has used them to bomb villages.

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  #122  
Old 19.01.2012, 13:59
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Fact is that this is not true - they are the only "civilian" planes that can so easily be armed and are perfectly designed for ground support. In the 80s, the company still openly advertised this... in short: the company manages to keep a loophole open for their business. It is legal and does not count as weapon. But it is plain common sense that a plane that is and always has been used as a weapon should count... the proof is not even hidden, half of middle american has used them to bomb villages.
Ok, point taken. But it still is primarily used as a training plane all over the world. But I agree about the weapon attachment, that should have been changed a long time ago.
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  #123  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:01
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

And now name a Western country that has not in some way or another harmed / repressed / cheated another country in the last 100 years. *some company my history teacher mentioned and whose name I'm not sure about* makes mines, mine detection instruments and replacement limbs. Now THAT is a business plan. But *that company* is not "Switzerland".

My solution would be that you get put straight back on to the same plane that brought you if you don't cooperate / state proper reasons for being here. It's not my problem if you travel from a different place.

Like I said, our system should become ridiculously unpleasant for those who have no good reason to be here and are not prepared to cooperate, this will reduce the people turning up for the wrong reasons. This will free up time for the true victims of persecution.

As for all the human rights fanatics defending badly behaving young men - how about they take on a few of these precious human beings into their homes to look after them?

Last edited by Kittster; 22.01.2012 at 19:43.
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  #124  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:03
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

I think we are far from the OP, which was about shoplifting
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  #125  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:05
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

Its funny because Switzerlands biggest export up until WWI was Mercenaries. We of course recycled all of our spoils into beautiful castles and burgeoning dairy industries. And of course the Nazis pushed us into banking.

Not sure why the Swedes like exporting violence so much?

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BTW: World's largest arms exporters 2001-2010 according to wikipedia:

Sweden ranks 8th (US$4.9 billion)
Switzerland ranks 13th (US$2.5 billion)
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  #126  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:05
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Sulzer makes mines, mine detection instruments and replacement limbs.
Seriously? I never new they were in the armament business - do you have a source? Thanks
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  #127  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:06
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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I think we are far from the OP, which was about shoplifting
Shoplifters at 12 o'clock! Hey! Don't run! These are just pickup trucks!

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  #128  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:08
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Don't bother, OSueco isn't very fond of facts.
sure, but we are discussing about Switzerland, and not about Sweden, it's not relavant...but it's always the same, "others are not better...or others do it..."

I mean if a country profit from the misery of others you have to deal with the consequences whether if it's Sweden, Switzerland or US...quite easy, no?
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  #129  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:09
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Consider however that when you send your asylum seekers back they might be killed. So if they are hungry in switzerland, so they steal a loaf of bread, so they get automatically deported, then they might be shot on their return. Not sure if that really means anything to anyone over here, after all you can all agree "that'll teach them not to steal". Of course, they would be unlikely to steal ever again, because you can't, when your not alive.
But not evne China shoots people randomly.

If they are being pursued by the authorities there, it is either because they are criminals, in which case we shouldn't be sheltering them (just as much as we wouldn't want China to provide a safe haven for our paedophiles) or they are being pursued unfairly because, for example, they belong to a forbidden religion or political group. In that case they fulfill the basic criteria for receiving asylum and so we shouldn't be sending them back.

I don't agree by the way with those who say we can't do anything about China. Of course we can. China needs exports and if we really practiced what we preached we should make it clear to them that if they don't fulfill certain minimal humanitarian conditions we don't buy their junk.
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  #130  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:12
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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For those of you fluent in German, here's an excerpt from the Kanton Aargau website that answers many of your questions:
see http://www.ag.ch/sozialdienst/de/pub...lte_fragen.php
Stimmt es, dass die meisten Asylsuchenden nur Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge sind?

Die Anerkennungsquote ist tatsächlich tief. Das heisst allerdings nicht, dass alle anderen Personen Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge sind. Es trifft aber zu, dass ein wesentlicher Teil der Migrantinnen und Migranten versucht über das Asylverfahren in der Schweiz zu einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung und einer Erwerbsmöglichkeit zu gelangen, um ihre wirtschaftliche Situation zu verbessern.

Gibt es eigentlich noch echte Flüchtlinge?


Siehe Antwort Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge.


Warum bearbeitet die Schweiz die Gesuche nicht schneller und schafft die Leute im Anschluss sofort aus?

Das Bundesamt für Flüchtlinge entscheidet rund drei Viertel aller Asylgesuche innert 3 Monaten. Zum Teil werden Entscheide bereits an der Grenzstelle gefällt. Ein Grossteil der Gesuchsteller führen jedoch gegen diesen erstinstanzlichen Entscheid bei der Asylrekurskommission Beschwerde. Die Beschwerden und die Schwierigkeiten bei der Identitätsabklärung und der Papierbeschaffung verzögern den Vollzug der Wegweisung.


Warum arbeiten die Asylsuchende nicht?
Während der ersten drei Monate unterstehen die Asylsuchenden einem gesetzlichen Arbeitsverbot. Nach dieser Zeit dürfen sie grundsätzliche einer Erwerbstätigkeit nachgehen, sofern ihr Verfahren nicht bereits rechtskräftig entschieden und sie aus der Schweiz weg gewiesen werden. Entsprechende Arbeitsgesuche werden durch das Migrationsamt entschieden.


Ich habe gehört, dass die Schweiz abgewiesene Asylsuchende weiterhin unterstützt. Stimmt das?
Ja, abgewiesenen Asylsuchenden, die bei der Papierbeschaffung nicht kooperieren, können die Fürsorgeleistungen auf ein absolutes Minimum reduziert werden.


Wieso werden kriminelle Asylsuchende nicht sofort ausgeschafft?
Kriminelle Asylsuchende werden grundsätzlich durch die Strafverfolgungsbehörden verfolgt und auch verurteilt. Haftstrafen müssen verbüsst werden. In der Folge werden die Asylsuchenden auch ausgeschafft, sofern für sie Papiere beschafft werden können. Dies hängt von der Person aber auch vom Willen des Heimatlandes ab. Die Zwangsmassnahme (Ausschaffungshaft) im Ausländerrecht ist zeitlich begrenzt.


Ich höre immer wieder, dass Asylsuchende nicht überall gleich viel bekommen. In Genf etwa bekämen sie mehr als im Aargau. Existieren diese Unterschiede und woher rühren sie?
Das Bundesamt für Flüchtlinge als Subventionsbehörde entschädigt die Kantone für die Ausgaben im Asylbereich. Diese Abgeltungen bestehen aus verschiedenen Pauschalen, die die unterschiedlichen Kosten in den Kantonen berücksichtigen (Mieten, Krankenkassen usw.). Die Kantone sind aber frei, wie sie die Bemessung und Ausrichtung der Fürsorge ausgestalten. Es ist aber so, dass sich die Kantone dabei an die kantonale Philosophie zur Ausgestaltung der Sozialhilfe anlehnen. Der Kanton Genf richtet grundsätzlich eher hohe, der Kanton Aargau eher tiefe Sozialhilfebeiträge aus.


Können die Asylsuchenden wohnen wo sie wollen oder besteht eine Meldepflicht?
Asylsuchende können den Wohnort grundsätzlich selber wählen, sofern sie wirtschaftlich selbständig sind. Bis es jedoch soweit ist werden sie in der Regel in Kollektivunterkünften des Kantons untergebracht.


Stimmt es, dass die UNO für die Asylsuchenden zahlt und nicht die Schweiz?
Weder die UNO noch andere Dritte leisten einen Beitrag an die Aufwendungen des Asylwesens in der Schweiz. Im letzten Jahrzehnt hat der Bund im Durchschnitt rund eine Milliarde Franken für die direkten Kosten aus dem Asylbereich aufgewendet. Wenn man die indirekten Kosten (Polizei, Justiz, Schule, Gemeinden etc.) dazurechnet, verdoppelt oder verdreifacht sich dieser Betrag.


Warum können Asylsuchende nicht bei ihren Verwandten wohnen?
In der Regel wohnen Asylsuchende mindestens während der ersten Zeit des Verfahrens in Strukturen des Kantonalen Sozialdienstes. Das macht auch Sinn. Während dieser Zeit stehen sie für die verfahrensrechtlichen Schritte zur Verfügung und die Folgemassnahmen der grenzsanitarischen Untersuchung können gemacht werden. Weiter haben wir Gelegenheit den Asylsuchenden etwas Deutsch und "Gesellschaftskunde" zu vermitteln. Verwandte in direkter auf- und absteigender Linie können selbstverständlich zusammen wohnen, wenn es die jeweiligen räumlichen Verhältnisse zu lassen.


Die Asylsuchende haben alle Handy's. Wer bezahlt diese?
Es trifft zu, dass die meisten Asylsuchenden über Handy's verfügen. Handy's mit Easy-Card sind leicht zu beschaffen. Woher die Asyl Suchenden die Mittel dafür haben, entzieht sich unserer Kenntnis. Weder der Kantonale Sozialdienst noch die Gemeinde zahlen Telefonrechnungen für Asylsuchende.


Es heisst immer, die Leute würden zurückgeschoben, wenn sie zum Beispiel schon in Deutschland ein Gesuch gestellt haben. Welche Mittel existieren, dies mit Sicherheit zu bestimmen?
Wenn der Verdacht besteht, dass Asylsuchende bereits in einem verfolgungssicheren Drittstaat ein Asylgesuch gestellt haben, werden diese Staaten von der Schweiz angefragt. Trifft dies zu und bestehen mit diesem Staat Rückübernahmeabkommen, werden die Asylsuchenden in der Regel diesem Staat überstellt.


Warum werden Kleinkriminelle einfach wieder laufen gelassen? Sollte man die nicht besser sofort ausschaffen?
Wegen Vergehen oder kleiner Delikte wie Schwarzfahren oder einmaliger Ladendiebstahl wird ein Asyl Suchender nicht als Krimineller betrachtet. Er wird in dieser Angelegenheit vernommen und meist mittels Strafbefehl gebüsst. Solche Strafen, falls es sich nicht um Wiederholungstaten handelt, haben keine Einfluss auf das Asylverfahren. Werden schwerer Delikte nachgewiesen erfolgt eine Verurteilung ( Vgl. hiezu Frage: "Warum werden kriminelle Asylsuchende nicht gleich ausgeschafft?")


Alle Asylsuchenden sind Schwarzfahrer. Was tun Sie dagegen?
Schwarzfahren ist ein Problem, dass primär die Personentransportunternehmen angehen müssten. Wir unsererseits machen die Asylsuchenden eindringlich darauf aufmerksam, dass Schwarzfahren in der Schweiz kein Gentleman-Delikt ist und strafrechtliche Folgen haben kann. Wir fordern die Asylsuchenden auch auf, die Bussen zu zahlen. Hier spielt aber, wie in anderen Bereichen auch, die Eigenverantwortung der Asylsuchenden und ihre Verantwortung gegenüber der Gesellschaft des Aufnahmestaates. Asylsuchende sind erwachsene, eigenverantwortliche Menschen, wir können und wollen sie nicht "bevormunden". Werden Termine für Asylsuchende behördlich angeordnet, werden ihnen die Transportkosten entschädigt.


Asylsuchende werden finanziell unterstützt, besitzen aber ein Auto. Das ist störend.
Asylsuchende, welche ihren Lebensunterhalt selber bestreiten, dürfen auch ein Auto besitzen. Nicht aber wenn sie durch den Kanton unterstützt werden müssen. Ein autofahrender Asylsuchender muss jedoch nicht zwingend Eigentümer des Fahrzeuges sein. Asylsuchende, welche bei der Motorfahrzeugkontrolle einen Führerschein beantragen, erhalten diesen, wenn Sie die Voraussetzungen dafür erfüllen, unabhängig der Herkunft und der finanziellen Verhältnisse der Gesuchsteller.
The worst Q&A ever...the questions are incredible stupid...
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  #131  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:18
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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sure, but we are discussing about Switzerland, and not about Sweden, it's not relavant...but it's always the same, "others are not better...or others do it..."
You critize people who didn't do anything else than correct your inaccurate statements?
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  #132  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:19
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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You critize people who didn't do anything else than correct your inaccurate statements?
Explanation: He may be related to the captain of the Costa Concordia.
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  #133  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:23
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Seriously? I never new they were in the armament business - do you have a source? Thanks
I'm afraid the source is my history teacher from a looong time ago. And now that I've researched online, it looks like his statement was either wrong or they have covered up any link to this.
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  #134  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:30
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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I'm afraid the source is my history teacher from a looong time ago. And now that I've researched online, it looks like his statement was either wrong or they have covered up any link to this.
Thanks - I'm unsure it was a different company, I do remember an almost identical "joke" from way back, but my memory fails me on the company name...
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  #135  
Old 19.01.2012, 14:37
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Thanks - I'm unsure it was a different company, I do remember an almost identical "joke" from way back, but my memory fails me on the company name...
I think he was saying it in relation to hidden connections with firms, his point being that it may look as if someone is only making A, but is in fact also contributing to B and C being made.
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Old 19.01.2012, 14:59
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

Dethbunny seems to be very liberal with groans and thanks on this topic , yet hasn't posted

How about contributing rather than being a fan/critic?
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Old 19.01.2012, 15:03
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Thanks - I'm unsure it was a different company, I do remember an almost identical "joke" from way back, but my memory fails me on the company name...
Yes, some men with a black helicopter paid a visit and did something to your brain? Happened to me too.
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Old 19.01.2012, 15:04
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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The worst Q&A ever...the questions are incredible stupid...
I like those stupid Q & A , but what I don`t like is one dumb ass "Swedish "guy in Switzerland .But then again this not relevant
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Old 19.01.2012, 15:18
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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If they are being pursued by the authorities there, it is either because they are criminals, in which case we shouldn't be sheltering them (just as much as we wouldn't want China to provide a safe haven for our paedophiles) or they are being pursued unfairly because, for example, they belong to a forbidden religion or political group. In that case they fulfill the basic criteria for receiving asylum and so we shouldn't be sending them back.
Criminality can vary from country to country, as can standards of evidence for crime, as can punishment, which can be extremely harsh for minor crimes. It's also not a simple of matter of belonging to certain groups, people can be persecuted for all manner of reasons, personal grudges, convenience, money or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Saying that asylum seekers are either "fake", being criminals, or "real", being members of certain groups, is incredibly naive.
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Old 19.01.2012, 15:45
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Interestingly, it does present an interesting piece of hairdresser tittle-tattle about Switzerland in general: it is happy to frown on criminals it deems to be from a particular ethnic group for the low level crime of pickpocketing, yet it beams like a Cheshire cat at the prospect of investment from criminals of the same ethnic group who happen to be exceedingly rich and wish to store their money no-questions-asked.
It would seem that your information is also of the "Hairdressing tittle-tattle" format.

Swiss banks have lists of countries from whom they will not accept money. I know, because I was standing next in line once, at an airport bank, when a couple of well-dressed dark complexioned men asked to open a bank account - the teller asked which country they are residents in, consulted his list and told them politely that it is not possible. The one man then hefted up his small suitcase, opened it (money? I couldn`t stretch my neck that far to see!) .... but the answer was still a shaking of the head and a loud and clear "No".

Maybe it was not money, maybe it was food, but whatever it was it would not convince the bank guy to open an account for them.
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