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  #161  
Old 19.01.2012, 19:43
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

And why criminal asylum seekers can't be sent back straight away is clear. Switzerland, like many countries respect human rights. Sending criminals back to countries where they will be persecuted for their religious beliefs or risk death would kind of go against these human rights
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  #162  
Old 19.01.2012, 20:13
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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and also don't forget that Switzerland sold weapons to these Dictators...which ironically was used to kill the families of the refugees which are here now...
]

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Which of course SWEDEN never would do
[QUOTE=OSueco;1462328]of course they are,...but they are not crying in the "newspapers" about these kind of things......of course Sweden is not hosting Nazi gold and money from dictators....but anyway, this thread was about Tunisians in Switzerland so it's not relevant...[/QUOTE]

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I like those stupid Q & A , but what I don`t like is one dumb ass "Swedish "guy in Switzerland .But then again this not relevant
Treverus ! My 'Dumb Ass" remark was directed at the statement about the Nazi Gold and the dismissal of begin not relevant .I am very grateful that I never was in Refuges,asylum seeker category ,and I don`t mind the view tax $ it cost me
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  #163  
Old 19.01.2012, 20:15
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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True war refugees who come from much worse and poorer backgrounds, for example Sri Lankans, manage to live and work here peacefully. I have no tolerance for criminals who excuse their deeds with poverty, none whatsoever. I don't care whether living in Tunisia is nice or not, when you commit a crime here you should be deported immediately.
i wonder why do you bother posting here? very few EF's will ever be able to vote, wouldnt it make more sense to do your propaganda to your fellow swissies who can actually vote for your cause?
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  #164  
Old 19.01.2012, 20:18
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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i wonder why do you bother posting here? very few EF's will ever be able to vote, wouldnt it make more sense to do your propaganda to your fellow swissies who can actually vote for your cause?
With that logic we shouldn't have a subforum on Swiss politics, period.

Curious what you see as propaganda in Simon's posts .
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  #165  
Old 19.01.2012, 20:22
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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]...or like when Switzerland protected Roman[/B] Polanski...
i.e. pedophiles OK....shoplifters NOT OK...what would you prefer? I'll go with the shoplifters...even though they are terrible criminals...
A other "Dumb ass" statment
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  #166  
Old 19.01.2012, 20:55
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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True war refugees who come from much worse and poorer backgrounds, for example Sri Lankans, manage to live and work here peacefully. I have no tolerance for criminals who excuse their deeds with poverty, none whatsoever. I don't care whether living in Tunisia is nice or not, when you commit a crime here you should be deported immediately.
Balkan citizens were also true war refugees and generated (and still) heated debates and remarks in switzerland because of inappropriate behaviour.

The only problem I have with your statement is the generalization; again it's a minority that makes the headlines and they should be punished or deported.

An interesting study shows a good integration and low criminality rate among sri-lankan in Switzerland but it's also the "foreign" community that has the highest rate of welfare beneficiary (federal study in french; see figure 16 & 17 page 72). There are also some "inside community crimes that are not reported" and do not directly affect the swiss citizen comfort.
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  #167  
Old 19.01.2012, 22:10
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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A other "Dumb ass" statment
but true nevertheless......I don't support pedophiles, some do, I don't...
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  #168  
Old 19.01.2012, 22:56
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisian_revolution

Following further public protests, Ghannouchi himself resigned on 27 February, and Beji Caid el Sebsi became Prime Minister; two other members of the Interim Government resigned on the following day. On 3 March 2011, the president announced the elections for the Constituent Assembly, which were held on 23 October 2011 with the Islamist Nahdah Party winning the plurality of seats.

After the revolution, the Tunisians have elected a government. Is there any problem now with gently sending them all back home, maybe with Fr 5'000 in their pocket to restart their lives?
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  #169  
Old 19.01.2012, 23:51
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Understandably the refugee system is a delicate matter. To brush aside the concerns of the population as being xenophobic or racist is a grave mistake though. After the anti-minarett initiative and the expulsion initiative I heard many opposing politicians saying they need to listen more to the people and take their concerns serious. This is the next potentially controversial subject.

If the moderate politicians don't start listening to the concerns and go about being able to reassure the citizens, then the SVP will make it their next big campaign and an extreme initiative will be put in front of the citizens and it will likely be accepted like all the ones mentioned.

At school here I was lucky enough to have refugees as a topic for a week. It was interesting to see how little refugees western countries take in compared to poor African countries who don't even have enough money to look after themselves. From memory a refugee receives 15-20 Fr a day which really isn't much.
Me and a class mate went to an asylum home and interviewed an Iranian lady who spoke fluent German. They were political activists who fled to Germany but got eventually deported back to Iran. The police were waiting for them at the airport and took her husband in for ‘interrogation’. Eventually they released them where they then fled to Switzerland. Her story of how they escaped was literally something out of James bond. They needed to pass a border point by going through a mine filed and hiding under windows. As I said I can’t remember the exact details but one of the family memebers, either child or husband were in Germany and they weren’t able to be repatriated. So life for the refugees is hard but she seemed genuwinely grateful to be here and seemed to have integrated well.


On the other hand though a female friend had to twice press charges against an asylum seeker for threats he made. After the police had a talk with him- and after the brother had a talk with him she was left in peace.

I think one massive problem around the whole issue is that I feel the asylum services is used as one big stick to hit the other side with. The left and right continually argue about who’s at fault and there is constant talk about changing the regulations. On top of this people like the former boss of the department of migration has criticized his old boss, Sommaruga. I feel this considerably damages the credibility of the department. All sides need to sit down and agree on one concept on how to deal with refugees cause at the moment I feel the strategy and the constant talk of changing the strategy damages the credibility of the government in dealing with refugees. Personally I don’t feel the government has a clear and defined concept of solving the problem.

Additionally I feel the Government needs to show its citizens that it has a clear plan to deal with misbehaving asylum seekers. Especially as there is a shortage of beds for these people. Trying to bully villages like Bettwil into accepting over 100 asylum seekers, which would be roughly 20% of the village is not the way to go.

Villagers are understandably against having asylum homes near them. Every week or 2 there’s reports of fights or fires in them and of asylum seekers who harrase, burgle, steal, deal in drugs, disturb the peace, use public transport with out paying. Even if these are isolated cases, I fully understand villagers doing everything to oppose asylum homes rather than take the risk that a couple of them will cause trouble. I would like to know how the government plans to deal with them. Personally I don’t feel that our legal system is suited to dealing with them as it gives next to no deterrent. They’ve got no money, no home, often no family here. They can’t fine them and short prison terms aren’t really that tough either. If asylum seekers aren’t able to behave themselves in towns and villages then I feel they must be prevented from going near them and taken were they won’t do any harm. Also to protect the reputation of the well behaved refugees.

I found an article explaining the dutch process and it looks like it could greatly help the situation here as well. These are the 4 big points:

• Erstens: Alle Asylsuchenden werden in Holland zentral von einer Stelle betreut. Diese führt sämtliche Asylzentren des Landes mit total 25'000 Plätzen.

All asylum seekers are overseen by a central agency. This runs all asylum centres with room for a total of 25000.


• Zweitens: Es gibt ein einziges Empfangszentrum im Land. Es steht in Ter Apel nahe der deutschen Grenze und hat Platz für rund 1500 Menschen. Hier werden die meisten Asylbewerber registriert, und hier bleiben sie bis zum Ende ihres erstinstanzlichen Verfahrens. Wer auf dem Luftweg nach Holland kommt, wartet im Zentrum beim Flughafen Schiphol auf den Entscheid.

There are is one arrival centre in the whole country which has room 1500 people. Most of the asylum applicants are registered and stay here till the end of their first process. Those who come by plane wait at a centre at Schiphol airport.

• Drittens: Während des ganzen Verfahrens steht den Asylsuchenden ein kostenloser Rechtsanwalt zur Seite. Direkt vor Ort tätig sind auch alle anderen Akteure im Asylwesen, also Hilfswerke, Ärzte, Übersetzer und Rückkehrhelfer.

Through the whole process asylum seekers have a free lawyer. All other organisations which are involved, like charities, doctors, translators and helpers for those returning are also present.

• Viertens: Die wichtigsten Dokumente der Asylsuchenden wie Identitäts- und Reisepapiere werden schon vor Beginn des eigentlichen Verfahrens geprüft. In der sogenannten Vorbereitungsphase, die sechs Tage bis maximal drei Wochen dauert, finden zudem erste Gesundheitschecks statt.

The most important documents like ID and travel papers are checked before the process beginns. In the preparation phase which is between 6 days and 3 weeks long, first health checks are also done.



The average duration of an asylum process here is 413 days. In the Netherlands 70% of applications are dealt with within 2 months. I find this difference amazing. I think it’s also better for the aslum seekers to have their future swiftly decided over rather than have it drag on for potently years.
Thank you for this post!

One big problem I see in Switzerland concerning the process compared to the Netherlands is that here we have some 26 cantonal police and justice laws, which makes everything more complicated.
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  #170  
Old 20.01.2012, 00:23
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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but true nevertheless......I don't support pedophiles, some do, I don't...
Well pedophiles support pedophiles, that is kind of obvious, no?
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  #171  
Old 20.01.2012, 00:27
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Thank you for this post!

One big problem I see in Switzerland concerning the process compared to the Netherlands is that here we have some 26 cantonal police and justice laws, which makes everything more complicated.

True but in the link I posted to an interview with the former boss of the department for migration he admitted a couple of mistakes. The first was this:

Die Einrichtung von temporären Bundeszentren war ein Fehler. Ich habe unterschätzt, dass wir damit bei den Kantonen Erwartungen wecken, die wir letztlich nicht erfüllen können.

Setting up temporary federal centres was a mistake. I underestimated that we would raise expectations of cantones which we in the end were not able to fulfill.

So it doesn't sound like the cantones would be too disappointed if Berne took control over the refugess.
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  #172  
Old 20.01.2012, 02:35
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Well pedophiles support pedophiles, that is kind of obvious, no?
na, they don't like competition.
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  #173  
Old 20.01.2012, 02:37
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Balkan citizens were also true war refugees and generated (and still) heated debates and remarks in switzerland because of inappropriate behaviour.
Look, I do agree, and it's certainly not (or shouldn't be) about singling out a nationality or specific regional background. It was more meant to be an example of how poverty or war-torn backgrounds should not serve as an excuse for crime. I was more peeved at the "refugees from Northern Africa come from poorer backgrounds and that's their excuse for crime"-argument. I do believe that everyone should have a fair chance and does not deserve to be labelled as this or that just because of his or her nationality. But the best way to do that is to reward positive, contributing members of society and punish the disturbing, criminal ones, and I think that's what it's all about.
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Old 20.01.2012, 02:51
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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As Gadhaffi's son was welcomed in Geneva not too long ago?
Yes, as a matter of fact.

Until, he stepped over the line so far that they just couldn't ignore his behaviour anymore. I seem to recall that there was a great deal of effort expended to try and reverse the decision.

BTW, I think it was the right one but it was a long time coming as far as I was concerned.

I think the point is that we object to "criminals" who have no money and do relatively little damage, even if they are "put your epithet here" but there seems to be little done to those who are seen to be "good for banks or industry." This even though these latter people are far more dangerous and evil than the petty shoplifters and pickpockets that seem to get people all in a uproar.
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  #175  
Old 20.01.2012, 07:45
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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i wonder why do you bother posting here? very few EF's will ever be able to vote, wouldnt it make more sense to do your propaganda to your fellow swissies who can actually vote for your cause?
Get a grip man! If your going to enter into discussions at least be civil!
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  #176  
Old 20.01.2012, 11:45
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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i wonder why do you bother posting here? very few EF's will ever be able to vote, wouldnt it make more sense to do your propaganda to your fellow swissies who can actually vote for your cause?
A wonderful example that ignorance is alive and well on the EF forum.
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  #177  
Old 20.01.2012, 18:31
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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Get a grip man! If your going to enter into discussions at least be civil!
absolutely, and the same goes for prejudices...not very civilized...
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  #178  
Old 20.01.2012, 19:53
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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absolutely, and the same goes for prejudices...not very civilized...
But prejudice is very civil. Civilization has been doing it for centuries.

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  #179  
Old 20.01.2012, 20:09
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

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According to the local paper, North Africans, especially those from Tunesia, are responsible for the increase in shoplifting in Central Switzerland. When caught, the shoplifters react aggressively by shouting, hitting, spitting and even urinating on the police.

On the other hand, pickpocketing has decreased.

no one has really explained the Urinating bit... if the journalist or the editor hasn't questioned it really demeans the accuracy of the report. Also if this is a direct translation it reads as

More North African = All North Africans caught Shoplifting = All either shout, hit, spit or urinate.

Again this editorial oversight really weakens the reporting. It reads as terribly sensationalist and anyone who takes this at face value really shouldn't.
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  #180  
Old 20.01.2012, 20:14
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Re: Increased shoplifting due to North African Asylseekers

An excerpt from the article I quoted:

http://www.bote.ch/page/newsticker/i...on&startrow=11
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