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  #101  
Old 25.02.2012, 22:30
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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prove it when you write majority.

or is it the only several so called "democracies" like the United States? that so called "democracy" in the US is farce. you cannot even protest in the street or voice your opinion against the US government without being arrested.

US is more of a dictatorship if you look at it closely. Control your people via media, accuse other countries with false info(Iraq, Iran with "weapons of mass distruction" which do not exist, Libya...) and then bomb the countries and say we are bringing democracy to their people when in reality we are bombing them to acquire their resources, to get our own firms to make money by rebuilding their countries, selling our products to them, providing financing to them which they will never be able to repay..basically invading them and taking over their country.
I cannot "prove" it as it is difficult to define "democracies" but it is selfevident
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  #102  
Old 26.02.2012, 10:58
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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Considering that many swiss people have army rifles or pistols at home, One can easily loose his mind and start shooting around?

If this happens, hope never does, who will be responsible? Do you think SVP knows what they are dealing with?
Actually, the presence of a large right wing party is the reason why we don't have a big problem with extremism in Switzerland. They address the issues that would otherwise be picked up and manipulated by extreme-right parties.

In fact, most of the time extremism and events like the shootings in Norway are a response to excessive liberalism and political correctness. Extremes feed extremes.
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  #103  
Old 26.02.2012, 11:44
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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Actually, the presence of a large right wing party is the reason why we don't have a big problem with extremism in Switzerland. They address the issues that would otherwise be picked up and manipulated by extreme-right parties.

In fact, most of the time extremism and events like the shootings in Norway are a response to excessive liberalism and political correctness. Extremes feed extremes.
This is manure, not well matured, but manure nevertheless. Look at the demographics of extreme right wingers. Mainly disenchanted youth, spurred by the "chance to belong" through association, very similar to soccer hooligans. Once they grow up and meet a partner, they go back to the real world and start a family and get a mortgage. Not many fortysomething brown shirt wearers are there?

We have extremism in Switzerland just like every European nation, they are not essentially politically motivated, the politics and foreigners are just rallying cries to make themselves heard. I've said it before, but if the media just blacked out their activities their numbers would dwindle to extinction in a short period of time.

Your reference to the atrocities in Norway is naïve, one seriously mentally deluded idiot does not justify the hypothesis for an argument that liberalism will cause an extreme backlash.
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  #104  
Old 26.02.2012, 12:09
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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And....those bad guys who is making a problems in Swiss are NOT Serbs.
I do not want to be a hater or subjective or.... Just think about, you people from Swiss Government

Those criminals may not be ethnic Serbs but they are still Serbian citizens. Serbs(ethnic) are by far the most misrepresented and misunderstod people in Europe.

Could it be that svp is upset that Serbs whipe the sporting floor with Swiss athletes and teams on regular basis?
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  #105  
Old 26.02.2012, 13:16
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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Actually, the presence of a large right wing party is the reason why we don't have a big problem with extremism in Switzerland. .
This would imply that the SVP/UDC/PPS is not an extremist party. The discussion about this is not closed, I'm afraid, even if you don't seem to like that fact.

The way you use "political correctness" and "response to liberalism" explains however very clearly why far rights parties are not extreme to you. Nice piece of rhetorics, although not personal as it's the wording used by said extremists (Bad luck for you, I've read large extracts of Breivik's paper). Just because your share words doesn't mean that you share the ideas, does it?
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  #106  
Old 26.02.2012, 15:50
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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This would imply that the SVP/UDC/PPS is not an extremist party.
They have some well known members that one could consider somewhat extremist (e.g. Schlüer or Freysinger come to mind) and quite likely a number of more extremist but not widely known members, but the party as a whole isn't more extremist on the right than SP or the Greens on the left.

If you're looking for real right wing extremists, check out the PNOS.
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  #107  
Old 26.02.2012, 17:14
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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but the party as a whole isn't more extremist on the right than SP or the Greens on the left.
How exactly do you measure that? I wouldn't mind you being right, but how can you know exactly that?
Making the difference between measurable data and wishful thinking seems to me the first step to the argumentation for your point. I am missing it big time.

My point does not need that, as it is a questioning point: How do you know somebody is right extremist or isn't when the rhetorics is the same? I imply that the sound of it does not necessarily mean that it is the same content. But sound of it it is. In your message too: the "other side is worse" fallacy is a classic of right extremists, but I don't know if you only speak like them or also think like them.

I give you the benefit of the doubt. I like doubting, it a often bitterly missed first step in arguments. Enjoy.
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  #108  
Old 26.02.2012, 17:37
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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How exactly do you measure that?
For a start we could have a look at smartmap. It displays the political positions of the candidates for last fall's national elections.

If you select SVP you will see that there's quite a lot of diversity in the SVP candidates' positions. Some are even left of the center! IMHO we would see quite a different picture if the SVP was an extremist party, don't you think?
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  #109  
Old 26.02.2012, 17:48
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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If you select SVP you will see that there's quite a lot of diversity in the SVP candidates' positions.
Following the internal disputes of the party in the last 10 years convinced me already
But when it comes to exclusions, one-chief-only-for-ever tendencies and what we see of media buzz, it's this more extreme part that people keep and identify the party with. Even if there are just plain liberal protectionist democrats in the party on their side. Fact is, the party becomes in the public debate what the voice of the party makes it. And that voice is less moderate than the people you seemingly identify with.
I am not denying the existence of the latter, I am just implying that the impact of the extremist fringe of the party is leading the dance (German expression: beim Tanzen führen).
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  #110  
Old 26.02.2012, 17:54
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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prove it when you write majority.

or is it the only several so called "democracies" like the United States? that so called "democracy" in the US is farce. you cannot even protest in the street or voice your opinion against the US government without being arrested.

US is more of a dictatorship if you look at it closely. Control your people via media, accuse other countries with false info(Iraq, Iran with "weapons of mass distruction" which do not exist, Libya...) and then bomb the countries and say we are bringing democracy to their people when in reality we are bombing them to acquire their resources, to get our own firms to make money by rebuilding their countries, selling our products to them, providing financing to them which they will never be able to repay..basically invading them and taking over their country.
this is incredibly and grossly oversimplified thinking, and not even factually correct. the reality is that we are bombing those other countries because we're a military-industrial complex and we simply need to keep all those career-soldiers busy and deployed. there is no deeper rationale.
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  #111  
Old 26.02.2012, 22:03
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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Actually, the presence of a large right wing party is the reason why we don't have a big problem with extremism in Switzerland. They address the issues that would otherwise be picked up and manipulated by extreme-right parties.

In fact, most of the time extremism and events like the shootings in Norway are a response to excessive liberalism and political correctness. Extremes feed extremes.
> the SVP in fact IS an "extreme right party", even if its "bourgois wing" goes heavily into mainstream

I don't know Norway but do not exactly see "excessive liberalism" but just applied mainstream liberalism.

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For a start we could have a look at smartmap. It displays the political positions of the candidates for last fall's national elections.

If you select SVP you will see that there's quite a lot of diversity in the SVP candidates' positions. Some are even left of the center! IMHO we would see quite a different picture if the SVP was an extremist party, don't you think?
Sure, as the SVP came out of the BGB and still has in its ranks many people who are NOT right-wingers at all. For example, Mr Giezendanner not only is widely perceived as a rightwinger but positioned himself as a rightwinger clearly, while many of his positions in reality are THE positions of people in the transport industry in general. Most experts expect the "post-Blocher-SVP" to move back a bit towards the centre over the coming decades. But exactly your graph shows that the SVP right now IS an extreme right-wing party majority-wise

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  #112  
Old 27.02.2012, 14:40
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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They have some well known members that one could consider somewhat extremist (e.g. Schlüer or Freysinger come to mind) and quite likely a number of more extremist but not widely known members, but the party as a whole isn't more extremist on the right than SP or the Greens on the left.

If you're looking for real right wing extremists, check out the PNOS.
So true. The Greens have a fair number of extremists including some who sanction terrorism. Even the SP has people like Jean Ziegler who still believe in some neo-Stalinist Utopia. In the UK both Labour and Conservative parties have a number of extremists in their rows, and the US parties also (both of them). A party isn't extremist because it includes a number of deluded loud-mouths.

And the PNOS is actually struggling to survive at all these days. The last I heard they lost the last of their councillors and they are little more than a website and a bunch of keyboard heroes these days. So if anything, extremism is receding on the far right in Switzerland.
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  #113  
Old 27.02.2012, 14:46
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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For example, Mr Giezendanner not only is widely perceived as a rightwinger but positioned himself as a rightwinger clearly, while many of his positions in reality are THE positions of people in the transport industry in general.
Such as abolish speed cameras and parking fees? That's cheap wind-up populism at best, or right-wing delusionism at worst. Either way, that chap is a dangerous nutcase hiding behing a suit and tie and the claim to be resonable because he runs a business.
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  #114  
Old 27.02.2012, 14:47
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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> the SVP in fact IS an "extreme right party", even if its "bourgois wing" goes heavily into mainstream

How can an entire party be "extremist" if it has a large proportion of liberal- and centrist-thinking members?

PNOS is extremist and yes, some of the SVP are bordering on PNOS views (if not sharing), but the entire party is not per se.
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  #115  
Old 27.02.2012, 15:36
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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Such as abolish speed cameras and parking fees? That's cheap wind-up populism at best, or right-wing delusionism at worst. Either way, that chap is a dangerous nutcase hiding behing a suit and tie and the claim to be resonable because he runs a business.
NO. The two "proposals" are two out of some simply silly notions the man has at times. But his interesting ideas are "doubledecker-highways", tunnels below lakes to ease traffic in cities, a toll-tunnel through the San Gottardo reserved for passenger-motor-cars, more modern loading terminals for trucks to go onto Trans-Gotthard-trains, a kind of "stock-exchange" for trucking-contracts, and much more.

He sometimes goes too far in his SVP mentality. This is the reason why he was NOT elected into the Senate.
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  #116  
Old 27.02.2012, 15:43
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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How can an entire party be "extremist" if it has a large proportion of liberal- and centrist-thinking members?

PNOS is extremist and yes, some of the SVP are bordering on PNOS views (if not sharing), but the entire party is not per se.
I did NOT say the SVP was extremIST but that the party IS extreme-rightwing. A small but decisive difference. The party WAS liberal/right-of-centre until Mr Blocher lead the party to the right. Parts of the liberal/centrist wing have become the BDP, but people like Messrs Eberle and Spuhler still are centrists, and they in the end will gradually move their party back into the right-of-centre mainstream. Mr Adolf Ogi in an interview recently regretted that his party had moved into extreme waters. You can be sure that Mr Ogi did NOT speak about extremist waters, and he did not even mention extremists.

Many people believe that the "post-Blocher" area is beginning gradually. But for the time being, the clout of that business-tycooon is still enormous.
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  #117  
Old 27.02.2012, 15:46
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

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I did NOT say the SVP was extremIST but that the party IS extreme-rightwing. A small but decisive difference...
Fair enough, but I would still argue that the SVP is NOT extreme right wing, either.

Edit: actually, to most people, those 2 terms are more or less interchangeable.
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  #118  
Old 27.02.2012, 15:49
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Re: SVP at it again ( this time against Serbs and Turks )

Oh yes, and let's not forget some of the delightful characters in the SP.
No, I'm not saying the entire SP are child pornographers, but then again not all SVPers are rampant xenophobes.

Just FYI, I'm probably an FDP man myself. Mostly.
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