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  #61  
Old 25.02.2012, 14:01
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Interesting links, sadly only in German:

http://bazonline.ch/basel/stadt/Wo-i...story/27502344

Burglary map of Basel (burglary per building 2005-2009)


  • a study (Räumliche Strukturmuster städtischer Kriminalität in Basel) shows an increase in burglaries in Basel from 647 cases in 2007 to 1187 in 2009
  • most burglaries during main holiday seasons (April-July, Christmas-New Year)
  • public authorities see cross-border operating gangs from Romania, Bulgaria etc. (EU enlargement to the East, Schengen) as a reason for the increase

Another study shows that Switzerland is "European champion" in burglary:

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...ister-29038825
What? That map shows that one in every 3 homes was burgled over 4 years?
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  #62  
Old 25.02.2012, 14:08
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Landlord immediately blamed eastern Europeans
I suspect the French.

But seriously this is disturbing. Just makes me all the more leery about when I see strange people in the neighborhood, or kids testing the main door to the building to see if it will open.
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  #63  
Old 25.02.2012, 15:15
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Interesting links, sadly only in German:

http://bazonline.ch/basel/stadt/Wo-i...story/27502344

Burglary map of Basel (burglary per building 2005-2009)


  • a study (Räumliche Strukturmuster städtischer Kriminalität in Basel) shows an increase in burglaries in Basel from 647 cases in 2007 to 1187 in 2009
  • most burglaries during main holiday seasons (April-July, Christmas-New Year)
  • public authorities see cross-border operating gangs from Romania, Bulgaria etc. (EU enlargement to the East, Schengen) as a reason for the increase
Another study shows that Switzerland is "European champion" in burglary:

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...ister-29038825
But you see, Romanians (and probably Bulgarians) can freely move within Schengen space (without visas) since First of January 2002, due to UE pre-accession agreement. Do the police intelligentia believe the criminals from EU2 would have waited 5 years, for the accession (enlargements) to EU? Common...bullocks!!!
As a side story, I know about the times when Romanians were humiliated standing in queues for hours for visas to France for example (and I mean, some were literally sleeping on the pavement in front of the French Embassy), and the fellow countrymen gypsies had no problems with the queues or whatever. They got into Europe long before Swiss "intelligence" is aware of...they needed no enlargement..and Schengen was no barrier to them back then, either.

But I digress. For quite some time, all ex-Yugoslavs can freely move too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
I am not the one to point a finger, but sometimes I just can't stand to let anyone pointing a finger only to certain countries.


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Citizens of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Serbia can enter the Schengen Area without a visa. On 30 November 2009, the EU Council of Ministers for Interior and Justice abolished visa requirements for citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, and Serbia,[109] while on 8 November 2010 it did the same for Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina.[110] The former took effect on 19 December 2009,[71] while the latter on 15 December 2010.[111]
Citizens of Kosovo holding Kosovo passports as well as people living in Kosovo holding the biometric Serbian passport still need a visa to travel to the EU. Serbia created the Serbian Coordination Directorate to facilitate this process. However, a visa liberalisation road-map for Kosovo is expected to be announced and negotiated in the near future.[112][113][114]
Visa liberalisation negotiations between the EU and the Western Balkans (excluding Croatia and Kosovo) were launched in the first half of 2008, and ended in 2009 (for Macedonia, Montenegro, and Serbia) and 2010 (for Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina). Before visas were fully abolished, the Western Balkan countries (Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Serbia) had signed "visa facilitation agreements" with the Schengen states in 2008. The visa facilitation agreements were, at the time, supposed to shorten waiting periods, lower visa fees (including free visas for certain categories of travellers), and reduce paperwork. In practice, however, the new procedures turned out to be longer, more cumbersome, more expensive, and many people complained that it was easier to obtain visas before the facilitation agreements entered into force.[115][116][117]

Last edited by greenmount; 25.02.2012 at 16:37.
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  #64  
Old 27.02.2012, 09:30
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Re: Basel crime-wave

So the famous Swiss locks don't work anymore? Basel is a real Disneyland compared to everything I've seen and experienced so far, be it UK, central EU or the US, but not immune to property crime. Will depend where you live, as shown on the crime-stats map in our of the previous posts.
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  #65  
Old 27.02.2012, 10:11
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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But you see, Romanians (and probably Bulgarians) can freely move within Schengen space (without visas) since First of January 2002, due to UE pre-accession agreement. Do the police intelligentia believe the criminals from EU2 would have waited 5 years, for the accession (enlargements) to EU? Common...bullocks!!!
Switzerland implemented Schengen not in 2002 but in December 2008.

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So the famous Swiss locks don't work anymore?
Most locks are fine. But even the most advanced locks aren't worth much when they're used with just a single bolt and a weak door frame.
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  #66  
Old 27.02.2012, 15:28
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Switzerland implemented Schengen not in 2002 but in December 2008.
.
You know what, as long as they don't provide any reliable data and statistics to support those allegations, I don't see any direct connection between implementing Schengen agreement in Switzerland and free movement of citizens of Bulgaria and Romania.
But I guess it is so much easier to find a black ship or a scape goat, as always..
But believe me, as a Romanian citizens I don't think these things are funny or fair.
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Old 27.02.2012, 16:05
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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I quickly went through all the articles and there was no mention about those Roma (gypsies) people being from Romania, rather from ex-Yugoslavia.
It doesn't matter, but I am afraid that many a time the blame is put on the Romanian gypsies even when it is not the case. Some of them are not angels and I know it ohh, so well, but being from my country I kind of feel sad for them.
> there were many many press articles about the Romanian Gypsies problem over the years, and it is known that the number of Gypsies in Romania was and most likely still is larger than in any other country. I years ago also discussed this in Budapest and Istanbul with locals who also knew about the problem.

> there were/are gypsies in ex-Yugoslavia but not as many as in Romania

THIS
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in...en#Demographie
link gives an idea

and here some press links
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/16500916
http://www.woz.ch/archiv/old/02/40/6804.html
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/15614366
http://www.ogs-seebach.ch/p/infoseld...c=seebhome.php
http://www.welt.de/kultur/article121...-Zigeuner.html
http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/16176263
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  #68  
Old 27.02.2012, 16:12
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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You know what, as long as they don't provide any reliable data and statistics to support those allegations, I don't see any direct connection between implementing Schengen agreement in Switzerland and free movement of citizens of Bulgaria and Romania.
But I guess it is so much easier to find a black ship or a scape goat, as always..
But believe me, as a Romanian citizens I don't think these things are funny or fair.
Those things indeed are neither funny nor fair. The reports quoted above show that the criminals among the Gypsies are in reality a tiny minority. And while I have heard the stories about those "residing" in the Alsace and jumping into Basel for some unsavoury business, I am rather careful about conclusions. Each time they catch a gang of burglars it turns out to be a funny concoction of nationalities and those gangs usually include one or two CH-natives.
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  #69  
Old 27.02.2012, 16:15
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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> there were many many press articles about the Romanian Gypsies problem over the years, and it is known that the number of Gypsies in Romania was and most likely still is larger than in any other country. I years ago also discussed this in Budapest and Istanbul with locals who also knew about the problem.

> there were/are gypsies in ex-Yugoslavia but not as many as in Romania

THIS
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in...en#Demographie
link gives an idea

and here some press links
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/16500916
http://www.woz.ch/archiv/old/02/40/6804.html
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/15614366
http://www.ogs-seebach.ch/p/infoseld...c=seebhome.php
http://www.welt.de/kultur/article121...-Zigeuner.html
http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/16176263
Wolli, I appreciate your posts a lot. But this time I kind of don't understand what is the point you wanna make about Romania having a larger Rroma population. (compared with Hungary? And Turkey??? Really?)
Even if it is so..what is to be done? Do you know in Hungary they are attacked by neo-nazi Magyar Garda ?
Honestly, I do not wish that Romania becomes anything near Hungary in terms of minority rights or whatever.

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Those things indeed are neither funny nor fair. The reports quoted above show that the criminals among the Gypsies are in reality a tiny minority. And while I have heard the stories about those "residing" in the Alsace and jumping into Basel for some unsavoury business, I am rather careful about conclusions. Each time they catch a gang of burglars it turns out to be a funny concoction of nationalities and those gangs usually include one or two CH-natives.
You are right! Amen to that.
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  #70  
Old 27.02.2012, 16:28
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Switzerland implemented Schengen not in 2002 but in December 2008.
You know what, as long as they don't provide any reliable data and statistics to support those allegations, I don't see any direct connection between implementing Schengen agreement in Switzerland and free movement of citizens of Bulgaria and Romania.
I merely pointed out that your argument regarding Schengen being in force since 2002 holds no water as far as Switzerland is concerned.

I don't know whether Basel authorities are right with their allegations regarding citizens of Romania and Bulgaria and I understand that you feel offended by them. But I don't really care what citizenship the burglars have anyway.
What I do care about is the strong correlation between the implementation of Schengen in 2008 and the almost doubled number of burglaries from 2007 to 2009. Seems to corroborate the theory that Schengen leads to a rise in criminal activity.
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Old 27.02.2012, 16:48
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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I merely pointed out that your argument regarding Schengen being in force since 2002 holds no water as far as Switzerland is concerned.

I don't know whether Basel authorities are right with their allegations regarding citizens of Romania and Bulgaria and I understand that you feel offended by them. But I don't really care what citizenship the burglars have anyway.
What I do care about is the strong correlation between the implementation of Schengen in 2008 and the almost doubled number of burglaries from 2007 to 2009. Seems to corroborate the theory that Schengen leads to a rise in criminal activity.
If there is a gang from Romania of course with other nationalities blended in as it happens, in I do hope the Romanian government will do something about it and send some officers etc. so they can help the Swiss police.
I don't understand why it took them so long to react in regards to some criminal gangs operating in France. I too do care about things like that and most of the people I know.
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  #72  
Old 27.02.2012, 17:50
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Wolli, I appreciate your posts a lot. But this time I kind of don't understand what is the point you wanna make about Romania having a larger Rroma population. (compared with Hungary? And Turkey??? Really?)
Even if it is so..what is to be done? Do you know in Hungary they are attacked by neo-nazi Magyar Garda ?
Honestly, I do not wish that Romania becomes anything near Hungary in terms of minority rights or whatever.



You are right! Amen to that.
There is no point to be made, but it is to be mentioned that press-reports in Switzerland between 1991 and now repeatedly pointed to the relatively many
A) Gypsies in Romania
B) many Gypsies from Romania having been involved in beggary + crime
C) that Gypsies from ex-Yugoslavia were mentioned in reports about the Western Balkan, but not in regard to Switzerland

And again, those who wrote/write these reports generally have about as much a clue really as I have, and that is close to zero You in the link about "numbers" of Gypsies in Romania may see the incredible differences in estimates ranging from 200'000 to 2,5 mio

D) Media here in Switzerland in regard to Gypsies in the Southern Alsace clearly mentioned "Romanian Gypsies". Whether they were right or wrong is something I cannot tell
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  #73  
Old 27.02.2012, 18:26
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Re: Basel crime-wave

The same kind of estimations were made about Gypsies in Hungary, some say they actually made up something between 5 to 10 % of entire population. In Turkey, they are not anymore recognized as national minority, so depending of the source one finds out they are somewhere between 35,000 and 5,000,000. I didn-t check out for ex-Yugoslavia, but I wouldn't be surprised they have more than what we could read in some places. Anyways.
That is not the point. As I mentioned in one of my posts, some of gypsies always managed, and I mean right after 1990 when most of the citizens had to endure humilating queues in order to get visas for trips to the "West", they managed to travel and, generally, do what they still do nowadays. UE membership or not, free movement within Schengen or not...I personally plead for a better cooperation between police forces, and not restrictions for certain countries.
I remember that some years ago Eastern countries were accused for not integrating Roma population, but as soon as the borders were let loose, no-one complained anymore..
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  #74  
Old 27.02.2012, 18:36
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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The same kind of estimations were made about Gypsies in Hungary, some say they actually made up something between 5 to 10 % of entire population. In Turkey, they are not anymore recognized as national minority, so depending of the source one finds out they are somewhere between 35,000 and 5,000,000. I didn-t check out for ex-Yugoslavia, but I wouldn't be surprised they have more than what we could read in some places. Anyways.
That is not the point. As I mentioned in one of my posts, some of gypsies always managed, and I mean right after 1990 when most of the citizens had to endure humilating queues in order to get visas for trips to the "West", they managed to travel and, generally, do what they still do nowadays. UE membership or not, free movement within Schengen or not...I personally plead for a better cooperation between police forces, and not restrictions for certain countries.
I remember that some years ago Eastern countries were accused for not integrating Roma population, but as soon as the borders were let loose, no-one complained anymore..
Sure, the whole VISA-matter did not help against criminals as it only is a hindrance for normal people. But agreements like the Dublin-Agreement really DO help
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Old 28.02.2012, 01:05
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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But you see, Romanians (and probably Bulgarians) can freely move within Schengen space (without visas) since First of January 2002, due to UE pre-accession agreement. Do the police intelligentia believe the criminals from EU2 would have waited 5 years, for the accession (enlargements) to EU? Common...bullocks!!!
As a side story, I know about the times when Romanians were humiliated standing in queues for hours for visas to France for example (and I mean, some were literally sleeping on the pavement in front of the French Embassy), and the fellow countrymen gypsies had no problems with the queues or whatever. They got into Europe long before Swiss "intelligence" is aware of...they needed no enlargement..and Schengen was no barrier to them back then, either.

But I digress. For quite some time, all ex-Yugoslavs can freely move too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
I am not the one to point a finger, but sometimes I just can't stand to let anyone pointing a finger only to certain countries.
Not exactly true. Romania and Bulgaria haven't implemented the Schengen Agreement yet, and the ex-Yugoslav states (with the exception of Slovenia) aren't party to the Schengen Agreement. Pre-Schengen arrangements do mean that citizens of most of these countries have the right to visa-free access to Schengen states, but not free and unfettered access -- they must carry a passport for access to all Schengen states.

Agreed, though, that in practical terms this isn't much of a barrier.
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Old 28.02.2012, 01:14
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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What? That map shows that one in every 3 homes was burgled over 4 years?
How do you figure that? That suggests that at most, there are 14,255 homes in Basel in total (number of burglaries in 2009 multiplied by 3, then by 4), which seems unlikely to me.
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  #77  
Old 28.02.2012, 01:35
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Not exactly true. Romania and Bulgaria haven't implemented the Schengen Agreement yet, and the ex-Yugoslav states (with the exception of Slovenia) aren't party to the Schengen Agreement. Pre-Schengen arrangements do mean that citizens of most of these countries have the right to visa-free access to Schengen states, but not free and unfettered access -- they must carry a passport for access to all Schengen states.
That doesn't really matter. The point is that a burglar's chance to enter and leave Switzerland undetected has greatly increased with the implementation of the Schengen treaty. The burglar's country of citizenship doesn't make a difference.
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Old 28.02.2012, 02:08
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Re: Basel crime-wave

When I first moved to Switzerland, I used to hear about the crime committed by foreigners - "The Turks," usually being blamed. Since 2008, it seems that the Romanians are being blamed instead, along with the Roma from anywhere.

I am pleased that people from Turkey are no longer being blamed for everything, but do we really have to offer so many smug generalisations, and verbal prejudices, about any one nationality or cultural group?
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Old 28.02.2012, 02:13
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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Most locks are fine. But even the most advanced locks aren't worth much when they're used with just a single bolt and a weak door frame.
My personal complaint is with the rule that many apartment blocks seem to have, including mine, that the outside door must be kept double locked ie: cannot be opened from the inside without using a key.

This doesn't seem to be a very safe practice to me, when most buildings don't have an alternative emergency exit. I suppose the risk of being burgled is higher than the risk of a sudden nighttime fire or other need for evacutaion, but I prefer to not have that door double locked, and take my chances with the potential burglars.
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Old 28.02.2012, 10:10
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Re: Basel crime-wave

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When I first moved to Switzerland, I used to hear about the crime committed by foreigners - "The Turks," usually being blamed. Since 2008, it seems that the Romanians are being blamed instead, along with the Roma from anywhere.

I am pleased that people from Turkey are no longer being blamed for everything, but do we really have to offer so many smug generalisations, and verbal prejudices, about any one nationality or cultural group?
So true! It is so convenient for everybody! Third class citizens of the so called United Europe! The second class (EU-8) was at least being treated a bit better. I only hope someday we could pay back all these favours...
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