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Old 11.03.2012, 15:54
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"Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

The "Buchpreis-Bindung" was sent down the drain again today. By a fairly clear 58% NO. Only some Romandie Cantons, usually rather leftwing-voting, this time voted rightwing-conservative in favour.

This should be taken as what it is, a very clear signal that people are fed up with too high prices
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Old 12.03.2012, 01:13
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Hintergr...chpreisbindung

I am still surprised to see so many Romands voting conservatively in favour of high prices, in favour of ideas of the 1950ies
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Old 12.03.2012, 01:36
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Hintergr...chpreisbindung

I am still surprised to see so many Romands voting conservatively in favour of high prices, in favour of ideas of the 1950ies
Since when is the wish for government intervention in economy a trait of a Conservative?
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Old 12.03.2012, 01:48
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

Neither do I understand what you mean, Wollishofener.

Apart from the link between price fixing and high prices.
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Old 12.03.2012, 18:39
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Since when is the wish for government intervention in economy a trait of a Conservative?
Because the idea of the Buchpreisbindung was of the 1950ies, and because the Buchpreisbindung was meant to further some chanceless Swiss authors and because it regarded books not as something for the "masses" but as something for the highly educated

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Neither do I understand what you mean, Wollishofener.

Apart from the link between price fixing and high prices.
The "Buchpreisbindung" is something favoured by people in favour of the "ancien régime", and by some "culture-folks". It was sent down thanks to a defacto-coalition from left to right. The rightwingers feared regulation from the federal government and the leftwingers feared an elitist development in favour of highly expensive books not for a more general public.

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Old 12.03.2012, 18:50
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Because the idea of the Buchpreisbindung was of the 1950ies, and because the Buchpreisbindung was meant to further some chanceless Swiss authors and because it regarded books not as something for the "masses" but as something for the highly educated
Well OK I don't know "highly educated", but rather "niche mkt authors" maybe yes. But consider that language minorities in CH are niche markets per definitionem.

So what we get from free market is cheap stuff from Germany and the US (and let's face it: most of it is garbage) what anyway on the net can be purchased at cheap prices (reducing even VAT),

and quite expensive books from local or arts authors.

This is bad.

There is a reason why language and reading skills in CH are among the lowest all over Europe.
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Old 12.03.2012, 19:02
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

The result of deregulation in the book market is that bookshops stock only the trash that they can sell quickly and won't touch the cultural stuff that may languish on shelves for far longer. Virtually all bookstores I know have drifted downstream in recent years. Booksellers used to be people who loved books but now they are mostly some kids hired off the street who wouldn't know the difference between selling books and selling kleenex. We all bemoan the loss of service in retail but we have to understand why it's happening.
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Old 12.03.2012, 19:13
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Well OK I don't know "highly educated", but rather "niche mkt authors" maybe yes. But consider that language minorities in CH are niche markets per definitionem.

So what we get from free market is cheap stuff from Germany and the US (and let's face it: most of it is garbage) what anyway on the net can be purchased at cheap prices (reducing even VAT),

and quite expensive books from local or arts authors.

This is bad.

There is a reason why language and reading skills in CH are among the lowest all over Europe.
For many decades, books in Konstanz were much cheaper than in Zürich, and it was NOT "bad" books

At the other hands, many Swiss authors sold their stuff well in Germany.

The open market we had in recent years for a variety of factors (Buchzentrum, etc) did not really result in cheaper books.

High prices for books are NOT good for the reading skills of the population. While I am astonished to hear about "language skills .. among the lowest" , as I never heard anything thelike.

What however for sure was bad for the understanding of the Standard language was the trend of all the garbage-radio stations (also known as Lokalradio) to talk generally in dialect.
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Old 12.03.2012, 19:22
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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What however for sure was bad for the understanding of the Standard language was the trend of all the garbage-radio stations (also known as Lokalradio) to talk generally in dialect.
Free newspapers who don't use copy editors are not really contributing either.

When will people understand that good stuff doesn't come for free?
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Old 12.03.2012, 19:40
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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For many decades, books in Konstanz were much cheaper than in Zürich, and it was NOT "bad" books
...
But probably because of the foreign editors' price discrimination and maybe because of customs laws.


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At the other hands, many Swiss authors sold their stuff well in Germany.
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If their name was Suter, Dürrenmatt, Frisch or Muschg probably yes.

If not, I see some difficulty.


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The open market we had in recent years for a variety of factors (Buchzentrum, etc) did not really result in cheaper books.
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An argument more to enhance local authors by price fixing.


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High prices for books are NOT good for the reading skills of the population. While I am astonished to hear about "language skills .. among the lowest" , as I never heard anything thelike.
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Well of course PISA is criticable in many points, but I think it's reading skills where Swiss German kids are really bad in.


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What however for sure was bad for the understanding of the Standard language was the trend of all the garbage-radio stations (also known as Lokalradio) to talk generally in dialect.
I don't think the dialect is the problem.

Rather high prices for lower quality.

What is normal in Italy e.g. is that apart from the book market you have many many (I know, stereotypes about Berlusconistan do not consider that) good newspapers with gadgets and annexes,

in CH we don't, if you want to import them you get customs problems and better forget all gadgets (and you'll pay double price). So no wonder why the Swiss don't read.


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When will people understand that good stuff doesn't come for free?
I think that's it. "Geiz ist geil" did infact also conquer CH.
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Old 12.03.2012, 19:47
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Free newspapers who don't use copy editors are not really contributing either.

When will people understand that good stuff doesn't come for free?
But free newspapers are in the Standard language, and in case of 20MIN, it is the same journalistic product as the Tages Anzeiger. Most articles which are in 20MIN also are in the Tages Anzeiger. And "Blick am Abend" may not be a "quality-paper" but is a "boulevard-journal", true. The language used however is not so very bad afterall.

20MIN has brought many people into reading a newspaper who before did NOT ready anything, and so in my view is a positive contribution
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Old 12.03.2012, 19:49
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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The result of deregulation in the book market is that bookshops stock only the trash that they can sell quickly and won't touch the cultural stuff that may languish on shelves for far longer. Virtually all bookstores I know have drifted downstream in recent years. Booksellers used to be people who loved books but now they are mostly some kids hired off the street who wouldn't know the difference between selling books and selling kleenex. We all bemoan the loss of service in retail but we have to understand why it's happening.
Well, we'll hopefully always have Charring Cross... But even book mavens like myself have started finding ebooks attractive, especially recreational reads in the fiction range. The publishers are partially to blame due to publishing fewer books that they depend on...those 'sure things' from bestselling authors, but the population is to blame, too, as sitting down with a good book was something we did far more often before the likes of the internet and movies on demand came along. I still read quite a lot, but the younger kids who didn't grow up with books instead of Facebook, well, their love of books is not as deeply rooted. Publishers need to figure out how to survive in this new reality as there's no going back and price fixing will only drive customers to the ebooks. I hope used books stores continue to flourish.

One positive thing, though, is that self-published ebooks are flourishing. I found an interesting new author last week who probably would never gotten published by a mainstream publishing house. Upside; lots of new talent. Downside; need better tools to sift the wheat from the chaff.
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Old 12.03.2012, 20:13
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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But probably because of the foreign editors' price discrimination and maybe because of customs laws.
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No, but due to the far larger marketplace. Customs? Zero in case of the duties and only 2.5% in regard to the VAT.


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If their name was Suter, Dürrenmatt, Frisch or Muschg probably yes.
If not, I see some difficulty.
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There in the past and now were and are books in fields like crime-novels and "Fachbücher" produced here which also sell in Germany. And a good part of all printed Tages Anzeiger and NZZ and lots of other newspapers and magazines are successfully exported to Germany and in fact DEPEND on the German market


[QUOTE=Bucentaure;1511259]
An argument more to enhance local authors by price fixing.
[/QUOTE/
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Yes, this argument was used by Schneider-Ammann, but did not succeed



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Well of course PISA is criticable in many points, but I think it's reading skills where Swiss German kids are really bad in.
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in my view an overkill-effect. Less would be more. What I mean is that Swiss German kids are "tortured" by a full lesson in German language daily, beside the point that Standard German is spoken and written in all lesson except gymnastics. I still remember our teacher(ess) in the first two years of Primary School, who made it a bit more bearable when reading out of books to us in some German language lessons



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I don't think the dialect is the problem.
Rather high prices for lower quality.
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Those rubbish-radios ARE a problem

[QUOTE=Bucentaure;1511259]
What is normal in Italy e.g. is that apart from the book market you have many many (I know, stereotypes about Berlusconistan do not consider that) good newspapers with gadgets and annexes,
------------------
in CH we don't, if you want to import them you get customs problems and better forget all gadgets (and you'll pay double price). So no wonder why the Swiss don't read.
/QUOTE]
--
such gadgets if being "part" of the newspaper are tolerated by customs up to a certain extent. Go to any kiosk and you can see German magazines with CDs and much else included and the stuff IS imported as magazines. The same applies to those Italian papers which are imported into Switzerland in big numbers. Add to this that Switzerland possibly has a higher number of newspapers "consumed" per capita than anybody else.
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Old 12.03.2012, 20:29
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Add to this that Switzerland possibly has a higher number of newspapers "consumed" per capita than anybody else.
I'll have to work on digging up reasonable stats (a little bit of googling wasn't fruitful) but I recall that the main Finnish paper, Helsingin Sanomat, had a really high subscriber base (as you just weren't moved into a place without a Hesari subscription) and very loyal readership that was, at least at the time ~2006 was the highest in Europe. It is a really great paper as I continue to read it still, even if only to keep my Finnish up to scratch. I think the only German paper I read regularly is Die Zeit since some of the local papers are a bit too local.

It's a tough one to compare, though, as most of the newsprint readers (and I love reading a tactile newspaper rather than reading online but I do hate the newsprint ink even still) are old farts like us...not the younger crowd who want it in electronic format and on their various devices. Newspapers need to evolve just like the book publishers if they want to keep readership.
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Old 12.03.2012, 20:29
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Less would be more. What I mean is that Swiss German kids are "tortured" by a full lesson in German language daily, beside the point that Standard German is spoken and written in all lesson except gymnastics. I still remember our teacher(ess) in the first two years of Primary School, who made it a bit more bearable when reading out of books to us in some German language lessons
...
Maybe loud voice might be a problem (however, never forget Egon Huber; but also Alexander Niemetz was more than understandible), but normally one reads a newspaper for oneself.


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such gadgets if being "part" of the newspaper are tolerated by customs up to a certain extent. Go to any kiosk and you can see German magazines with CDs and much else included ...
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Sure?


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The same applies to those Italian papers which are imported into Switzerland in big numbers.
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Maybe it's the "big numbers" thing; but normally they arrive without and cost double.


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Add to this that Switzerland possibly has a higher number of newspapers "consumed" per capita than anybody else.
Yes, but what newspapers.
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Old 12.03.2012, 20:32
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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One positive thing, though, is that self-published ebooks are flourishing. I found an interesting new author last week who probably would never gotten published by a mainstream publishing house. Upside; lots of new talent. Downside; need better tools to sift the wheat from the chaff.
True, self publishing has become a lot easier. And not just in terms of ebooks. Printed books too are now a lot cheaper to print in small quantities thanks to print on demand techniques so that anybody who has a tale to tell can get it out there. I've read some pretty good books by people who were writing as a hobby and probably didn't sell more than several hundred copies (and could have done with a better copy editor and maybe some minimal professional advice). The problem is that many go unrecognised and so sell far smaller volumes than they deserve. So whereas the small guys are growing (the good with the bad) it's the middle area that is becoming a desert.
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Old 12.03.2012, 21:41
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Sure?
Absolutely, as I often bought such stuff (incl the gadgets) --- and I know precisely well about customs clearance and the customs-tariff


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Maybe it's the "big numbers" thing; but normally they arrive without and cost double.
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some kiosks don't have them and others do. Very often you have to ASK about the add-on and then will be pointed to a separate box


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Yes, but what newspapers.
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> Südostschweiz
> St. Galler Zeitung
> Schaffhauser Nachrichten
> Winterthurer Landbote
> Zürcher Unterländer
> Zürcher Oberländer
> Zürichsee Zeitung
> NZZ
> Tages Anzeiger
> Zuger Zeitung
> Neue Luzerner Zeitung
> Aargauer Zeitung
> Bund
> Berner Zeitung
> Basler Zeitung
> Corriere del Ticino
> le Temps
and many many more
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Old 12.03.2012, 21:47
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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I'll have to work on digging up reasonable stats (a little bit of googling wasn't fruitful) but I recall that the main Finnish paper, Helsingin Sanomat, had a really high subscriber base (as you just weren't moved into a place without a Hesari subscription) and very loyal readership that was, at least at the time ~2006 was the highest in Europe. It is a really great paper as I continue to read it still, even if only to keep my Finnish up to scratch. I think the only German paper I read regularly is Die Zeit since some of the local papers are a bit too local.

It's a tough one to compare, though, as most of the newsprint readers (and I love reading a tactile newspaper rather than reading online but I do hate the newsprint ink even still) are old farts like us...not the younger crowd who want it in electronic format and on their various devices. Newspapers need to evolve just like the book publishers if they want to keep readership.
German language newspapers to be recommended are
> NZZ (Zürich)
> Tages Anzeiger (Zürich)
> Süddeutsche Zeitung (München)
> Frankfurter Allgemeine (Frankfurt)

French language newspapers to be recommended are
> le Temps (Geneva+Lausanne)
> le Monde (Paris)
> Liberation (Paris)

and for justice-reasons let's not forget the best Italian language one
> Corriere della Sera (Milano)
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Old 13.03.2012, 12:28
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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Maybe it's the "big numbers" thing; but normally they arrive without and cost double.
Only double? Luxury!

I see you've never tried buying a copy of NZZ in NYC.
You might think it was printed in gold type or something.
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Old 13.03.2012, 13:54
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Re: "Buchpreis-Bindung" sent down the drain

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I see you've never tried buying a copy of NZZ in NYC.
You might think it was printed in gold type or something.
Until a certain point I can understand why far away from the publishers and big number distribution channel an item costs more, also much more.

What we have in CH however is that il Corriere della Sera, L'Espresso, Il Panorama and all of them cost a lot more, having the same or even lower transportation costs. They have the same price in Chiasso as they probably have at Basel, but far more than at Domodossola or Battipaglia.


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> Südostschweiz
> St. Galler Zeitung
> Schaffhauser Nachrichten
> Winterthurer Landbote
> Zürcher Unterländer
> Zürcher Oberländer
> Zürichsee Zeitung
> NZZ
> Tages Anzeiger
> Zuger Zeitung
> Neue Luzerner Zeitung
> Aargauer Zeitung
> Bund
> Berner Zeitung
> Basler Zeitung
> Corriere del Ticino
> le Temps
and many many more
The list is longer in fact, but not by much (and some have the same owner).

So in some regions (Ticino e.g.) you don't have the newspapers you once had (s.th. like 3 if you don't count free stuff and the weekly newspaper Il Caffè della Domenica what is the best one imho).

So offer is restricted.

Another problem is the Swiss Post Office and letter delivery (extremely slow). That's why I cancelled my Corriere del Ticino-abo this year after decades (besides that I didn't really like it - but what else could I have read?), having the newspaper only in the afternoon (and I have no time to read in the evening) being delivered with my letters.
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