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Old 22.03.2012, 00:55
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Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

By Associated Press, Updated: Wednesday, March 21, 6:41 AM

BERN, Switzerland — The Swiss government says a referendum will take place on a nationalist-led proposal to introduce annual quotas for immigrants. The government said in a statement Wednesday that a campaign group called Stop Mass Immigration has gathered the necessary 100,000 signatures to force a referendum.

The nationalist Swiss People’s Party has promoted the campaign with posters of black boots marching onto the Swiss flag. The plan foresees caps for all types of foreigners living and working in Switzerland. It also calls for Swiss citizens to receive priority for new jobs and limits on the types of social services foreigners can enjoy.

Read more at:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...eRS_story.html
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Old 22.03.2012, 00:57
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

The article is a bit thin on details. Do you think this will pass, and if so when?
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Old 22.03.2012, 20:22
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

I think it's retarded because many people moving here already have a contract on hand...
Which means there is request for them from the economic world.
Sure, on border regions there is a problem with cross-border commuters, but it can't be solved with a blanket initiative like this.
The risk to damage the economy is too high, so the quotas would not be very strict. In the end, it would be useless, because if there is no request a lot of people would not move here in the first place.
This is the whole polish plumber discourse coming back.

If it passes, it's because they packaged something that would not pass (limiting foreginers per year in general) with other things that will draw many voters, such as having to provide justification for hiring a foreigner instead of a local, limiting cross-border commuters etc.
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Old 22.03.2012, 20:50
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

As long as there's a box to tick to send those septics home who want to make CH the 51st state, so that they can feel more at home here.
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Old 22.03.2012, 21:00
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

Here is the Text 'Gegen Masseneinwanderung'

There is a collection of signatures for two other similar initiatives:
'Für eine Stabilisierung der Gesamtbevölkerung'
and
'Stopp der Überbevölkerung - zur Sicherung der natürlichen Lebensgrundlagen'

PS: Thinking about housing bubble. That's the biggest needle aiming at it.
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Old 22.03.2012, 23:22
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

Just what do the supporters of this initiative hope to achieve?

First, there is nothing that can be done about EU immigrants unless Switzerland withdraws from the bilateral treaties. And we know that won't happen - the Swiss enjoy the benefits of those treaties, and won't give them up.

Which leaves non-EU immigrants the only group for whom caps could be introduced. But the referendum's demands - priority for Swiss for jobs, etc. - are already in place with respect to non-EU hiring. Employers already have to jump through hoops, have to prove that no Swiss (or EU) is able or available to do the job, before an EU candidate can be hired. A non-EU person is taking nothing from a Swiss worker.

So how is this initiative different from what already exists?


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Thinking about housing bubble. That's the biggest needle aiming at it.
If the fundamental problem truly is the rise in housing costs, why not tackle that directly? Rent control. Even more punative tax on capital gains on the sale of property. Problem solved.

(Oh wait... who benefits from rising house prices? Swiss landlords. Swiss home sellers. Guess that's behind the reluctance to tackle the house price issue head-on.)

Trying to get at house prices in a round about way is just plain inefficient.

---

And I've said this before - if the Swiss are serious about wanting jobs to go to Swiss citizens, then they need to look to their education system. For whatever reason, the current system has not produced enough people trained in the skills needed for today's jobs.

There also needs to be more flexibility, which is as much a mind-set issue as an educational one. The job you trained for 20, 10, even 5 years ago may not exist tomorrow. There needs to be more emphasis on continued growth in one's field, and less on diplomas that may no longer be relevant in tomorrow's world.
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Old 22.03.2012, 23:45
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

[QUOTE=meloncollie;1520883]

(Oh wait... who benefits from rising house prices? Swiss landlords. Swiss home sellers. Guess that's behind the reluctance to tackle the house price issue head-on.)

Trying to get at house prices in a round about way is just plain inefficient.

---

QUOTE]
Only the swiss landlords and swiss home seller?Cannut cries discrimination
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Old 22.03.2012, 23:47
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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there is nothing that can be done about EU immigrants unless Switzerland withdraws from the bilateral treaties.
Which hopefully they will do!

Tom
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Old 23.03.2012, 00:01
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

[QUOTE=Murloc;1520729]I think it's retarded because many people moving here already have a contract on hand...
QUOTE]
What ever you think ,retarded or no retarded ,if you where familiar whit the swiss constitution ,you would know 100000 signature a referendum has to be called .If I want that only pink toilet paper to be used ,i collect 100000 signature ,then we have a referendum on pink toilet paper .Call me a retard if you want
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Old 23.03.2012, 00:15
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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Which hopefully they will do!

Tom
Speaking as someone who is a dual US/EU citizen and really wants to come to Switzerland, I hope not. It would crush me if the door were slammed in my face before I could get there.

I agree with what others here have said and think that because bilateral treaties work both ways, I can imagine the average Swiss won't want to give up easy EU entry and rights so hopefully the implementation of this won't get much traction even if passed.
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Old 23.03.2012, 09:23
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

The good news is that when we've thrown you out of the country, you can still pretend that you're a part of our society by lying about your Swiss activities right here on EF.
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Old 23.03.2012, 09:31
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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I can imagine the average Swiss won't want to give up easy EU entry and rights so hopefully the implementation of this won't get much traction even if passed.
And just how many Swiss are looking for jobs in Greece or eastern Europe?

Tom
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Old 23.03.2012, 10:52
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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I agree with what others here have said and think that because bilateral treaties work both ways, I can imagine the average Swiss won't want to give up easy EU entry and rights so hopefully the implementation of this won't get much traction even if passed.
If it passes it will be part of the constitution!

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Just what do the supporters of this initiative hope to achieve?

First, there is nothing that can be done about EU immigrants unless Switzerland withdraws from the bilateral treaties. And we know that won't happen - the Swiss enjoy the benefits of those treaties, and won't give them up.

Which leaves non-EU immigrants the only group for whom caps could be introduced. But the referendum's demands - priority for Swiss for jobs, etc. - are already in place with respect to non-EU hiring. Employers already have to jump through hoops, have to prove that no Swiss (or EU) is able or available to do the job, before an EU candidate can be hired. A non-EU person is taking nothing from a Swiss worker.

So how is this initiative different from what already exists?
It tries to nullify the all bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland. In particular the agreement on the free movement of persons.
Quote:
Es dürfen keine völkerrechtlichen Verträge abgeschlossen werden, die gegen diesen Artikel verstossen.
[...]
Völkerrechtliche Verträge, die Artikel 121a widersprechen, sind innerhalb von drei Jahren nach dessen Annahme durch Volk und Stände neu zu verhandeln und anzupassen.
Now, there is a clause in the bilateral agreements that says if one single agreement gets canceled all agreement will get canceled. aka Guillotine clause.

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If the fundamental problem truly is the rise in housing costs, why not tackle that directly? Rent control. Even more punative tax on capital gains on the sale of property. Problem solved.

(Oh wait... who benefits from rising house prices? Swiss landlords. Swiss home sellers. Guess that's behind the reluctance to tackle the house price issue head-on.)

Trying to get at house prices in a round about way is just plain inefficient.
I do not think the this initiative tries to lower the housing cost. It is more a side effect that many may not be aware off. If this initiative will pass many will rub there eyes because of effects it will have on the economy, housing, etc.

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And just how many Swiss are looking for jobs in Greece or eastern Europe?

Tom
When it passes some may have to.
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Old 23.03.2012, 13:05
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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If it passes it will be part of the constitution!
Veering off-topic for a moment...

I've always been curious about this. So - if a people's referendum passes, it automatically becomes part of the constitution?

What happens if the referendum is in conflict with other constititional provisions? How is that ironed out?

Are there any bits of the constitition that are carved in stone, unchangeable?

And, does a constitution-changing referendum require only a simple majority to come into law?

Many thanks...
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Old 23.03.2012, 13:19
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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The good news is that when we've thrown you out of the country, you can still pretend that you're a part of our society by lying about your Swiss activities right here on EF.
You made me think about that
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Old 23.03.2012, 13:21
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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Veering off-topic for a moment...

I've always been curious about this. So - if a people's referendum passes, it automatically becomes part of the constitution?

What happens if the referendum is in conflict with other constititional provisions? How is that ironed out?

Are there any bits of the constitition that are carved in stone, unchangeable?

And, does a constitution-changing referendum require only a simple majority to come into law?

Many thanks...
Supreme court ,or what we call it again
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Old 23.03.2012, 13:34
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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Veering off-topic for a moment...

I've always been curious about this. So - if a people's referendum passes, it automatically becomes part of the constitution?

What happens if the referendum is in conflict with other constititional provisions? How is that ironed out?

Are there any bits of the constitition that are carved in stone, unchangeable?

And, does a constitution-changing referendum require only a simple majority to come into law?

Many thanks...
The constitution basicaly say that the power is ultimately in the hands of the people so the people have to get their way. If there is any conflict with other bits of the constitution that's for those who draft the law to work around. If they can't do it satisfactorily then test cases can be trialled in courts to determine the correct interpretation. If you don't like the interpretation you start another referendum. It's an organic process. Nothing is set in stone.

That's why a minor squabble over urban planning and zoning laws in Langenthal escalated into a nationwide ban on minarets.
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Old 23.03.2012, 13:47
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

I know of only one chase the court steped in "Frauen stimmrecht in Appenzell"
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Old 23.03.2012, 14:05
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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First, there is nothing that can be done about EU immigrants unless Switzerland withdraws from the bilateral treaties. And we know that won't happen - the Swiss enjoy the benefits of those treaties, and won't give them up.
Not so sure about that. Heard the one with France threatening to withdraw from Schengen? Switzerland will follow if that becomes reality.
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Which leaves non-EU immigrants the only group for whom caps could be introduced. But the referendum's demands - priority for Swiss for jobs, etc. - are already in place with respect to non-EU hiring. Employers already have to jump through hoops, have to prove that no Swiss (or EU) is able or available to do the job, before an EU candidate can be hired. A non-EU person is taking nothing from a Swiss worker.
Again, the initiave is not (solely) aimed at non-Europeans. As long as salaries in all neighbouring countries are much lower than in Switzerland they will drive down wages. It's all a question of priorities, is the wellbeing of companies and the overall economy more at the center of your concern or that of Swiss employees? Some people at the SVP think, by far not everyone and unlike the FDP of course, that the latter should be the case.

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If the fundamental problem truly is the rise in housing costs, why not tackle that directly? Rent control. Even more punative tax on capital gains on the sale of property. Problem solved.
Very, very bad idea, then we have conditions like in Paris or Geneva where rent is exorbitant, investors stop building rental properties while landlords stop to invest in their units, and only people with connection get a (publically subsidized because of the rent cap) appartment.

Quote:
(Oh wait... who benefits from rising house prices? Swiss landlords. Swiss home sellers. Guess that's behind the reluctance to tackle the house price issue head-on.)

Trying to get at house prices in a round about way is just plain inefficient.
Trying to solve a general imbalance between supply (low) and demand (too high and rising) by introducing rent control is not just plain inefficient as you put, it but suicidal.

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And I've said this before - if the Swiss are serious about wanting jobs to go to Swiss citizens, then they need to look to their education system. For whatever reason, the current system has not produced enough people trained in the skills needed for today's jobs.
Again, wrong. With an unemployment rate of 3.5% there clearly is sufficient demand for Swiss labour even with the competition of half the EU's graduates trying to land a job here. There simply aren't enough Swiss to educate in the required skills, or put otherwise: our economy is too big for us, hence the low unemployment despite the massive influx of foreign workers.
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There also needs to be more flexibility, which is as much a mind-set issue as an educational one. The job you trained for 20, 10, even 5 years ago may not exist tomorrow. There needs to be more emphasis on continued growth in one's field, and less on diplomas that may no longer be relevant in tomorrow's world.
More flexilibity than starting off as a lowly mechanic apprenticeship from a local firm and ending up as an engineer for a large MNC supervising projects all over the world with an exec MBA in sight? Name me another system where you can truly compensate a slow start as well as here, I'd be interested to hear.
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Old 23.03.2012, 14:08
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Re: Swiss to get referendum on nationalist campaign for immigration caps

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Speaking as someone who is a dual US/EU citizen and really wants to come to Switzerland, I hope not. It would crush me if the door were slammed in my face before I could get there.

I agree with what others here have said and think that because bilateral treaties work both ways, I can imagine the average Swiss won't want to give up easy EU entry and rights so hopefully the implementation of this won't get much traction even if passed.
Yes, it's both ways but Swiss only truly enjoy the right of free, passport-free travel, not the part about being able to work in the EU because for vast majority of Swiss it would simply mean throwing away at least 2/3 or their salary. Those who could enjoy a similar standard of life abroad could always do so, Schengen or not. So don't count too much on the argument of rexiprocity if it ever comes to a vote, you'd be dissapointed about how little the Swiss really value that.
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