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  #21  
Old 28.08.2014, 15:06
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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I don't know why these things keep on going around in circles.

Hydrogen cells have been around for a long time but their problem is their miserably low energy efficiency. Progress in battery technology has put the technology in the limelight.
I don't think it is the efficiency of the cell, so much as too much energy is currently lossed in the process of isolating the necessary amount of hydrogen fuel.
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  #22  
Old 28.08.2014, 15:28
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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So where are they planning to get the hydrogen, use fossil fuels to extract it?
Last I checked they were planning to strip it from Methane. Certainly not carbon neutral but I believe expected to be near twice the carbon efficiency of internal combustion.
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Old 28.08.2014, 15:34
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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What is scammy about the catalytic converter? Or are you referring to the catalysis of the electrolysis reaction to break apart H2 and O?
Catalytic converters are claimed to be good for the environment, but if you saw the devastation left after mining for the materials you might think different. Also they weigh, which causes a car to use more fuel to carry it about, also they need to be kept at an optimum temperature which in all cases means the car pushes extra fuel at them, i.e. uses more fuel to clean up.

Don't know about you but to be better environmentally it might be an idea to do stuff that menas you need put less fuel in in the first place, hence why it's a scam: claim to do one thing, does the exact opposite: whilst costing you plenty.
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Old 28.08.2014, 15:50
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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Catalytic converters are claimed to be good for the environment, but if you saw the devastation left after mining for the materials you might think different. Also they weigh, which causes a car to use more fuel to carry it about, also they need to be kept at an optimum temperature which in all cases means the car pushes extra fuel at them, i.e. uses more fuel to clean up.

Don't know about you but to be better environmentally it might be an idea to do stuff that menas you need put less fuel in in the first place, hence why it's a scam: claim to do one thing, does the exact opposite: whilst costing you plenty.
Completely missing the point that the purpose of a catalytic converter is to remove the poisons produced by an internal combustion engine. Of which there are otherwise quite a lot and there is no other reasonable way of removing them.

BTW Platimium mining in itself is not particularly problematic given that the bulk is produced as a by-product of copper and nickel mining which we do anyway.
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  #25  
Old 29.08.2014, 08:54
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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Completely missing the point that the purpose of a catalytic converter is to remove the poisons produced by an internal combustion engine. Of which there are otherwise quite a lot and there is no other reasonable way of removing them.

BTW Platimium mining in itself is not particularly problematic given that the bulk is produced as a by-product of copper and nickel mining which we do anyway.
As well as Aluminum, ., same can be said for gold and a few other higher value minerals. not the bulk, necessarily, but it is extractable.

The catalytic converter's weight is well within the +/- of which and how many passengers are on board, and it's definitely pulling it's own weight.
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Old 29.08.2014, 09:52
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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As well as Aluminum, ., same can be said for gold and a few other higher value minerals. not the bulk, necessarily, but it is extractable.

The catalytic converter's weight is well within the +/- of which and how many passengers are on board, and it's definitely pulling it's own weight.
It is still extra weight and therefore it still costs extra to carry around.
A car with a cat will use 10% more fuel than one without, removing it will up the performance a bit, removal and remap to a non-cat map, not a performance map just one that doesn't waste fuel, will improve it alot. Driving normally will then produce a 10% saving in fuel.
Amusingly my old 750 had a heater in the cat to warm it up faster so it qualified as a high efficiency vehicle.
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Old 29.08.2014, 10:28
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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A car with a cat will use 10% more fuel than one without
It must be a big cat:
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  #28  
Old 29.08.2014, 10:37
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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Hindenburg, anyone?

Tom
Give it a couple years and carvolution will eliminate the bad drivers
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  #29  
Old 29.08.2014, 10:52
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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It is still extra weight and therefore it still costs extra to carry around.
A car with a cat will use 10% more fuel than one without, removing it will up the performance a bit, removal and remap to a non-cat map, not a performance map just one that doesn't waste fuel, will improve it alot. Driving normally will then produce a 10% saving in fuel.
So, without the catalytic converter, a 10% full savings means you are pouring 10% less NOx, SOx, and COx into the atmosphere.

As opposed to with the cat, where once at prime conversion conditions, well over 90%* of pollutants are converted. head scratcher, that.

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Amusingly my old 750 had a heater in the cat to warm it up faster so it qualified as a high efficiency vehicle.
not high efficiency, but low emission. the preheated e-cat reached optimal conversion conditions faster => more pollutants neutralized


*quick number search on 3 way converter, can probably get more specific; in my search I spotted this though: www.gizmag.com/more-effective-catalytic-converter/30636/
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  #30  
Old 29.08.2014, 11:17
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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So, without the catalytic converter, a 10% full savings means you are pouring 10% less NOx, SOx, and COx into the atmosphere.
The 10% figure is nonsense anyway. In a very few cases, in the very early days of cat converters being required they were sometimes fitted to engines not designed for them, and did have a noticeable effect on economy, but once the engine designs and mappings were modified accordingly, this difference largely disappeared.

The additional few kilos of weight will of course make a marginal difference to efficiency, but only equivalent to carrying a spare tyre, a toolkit and an extra can of petrol.

The very fact that it's the conspiracy-theory nutjobs pushing the idea should be a big enough clue in itself, e.g. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread572015/pg1

Still, it gives them something to whinge about, and a good laugh for the rest of us.
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  #31  
Old 29.08.2014, 11:21
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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Give it a couple years and carvolution will eliminate the bad drivers
"Unsafe at any speed" Ralph Nader 1965 has a chapter about how the steering column becomes a javelin in some collisions. And I've seen several accidents on admittedly older cars where a rear end shunt pushed the rear bumper mounting brackets into the petrol tank rupturing it. People were stood around smoking and nothing happened. One might think some form of Darwinism would reduce the bad driver and idiot population but, if anything such as that awakening to an angry tram bell this morning would say, it is safer cars that are keeping them alive.
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  #32  
Old 29.08.2014, 11:29
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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A car with a cat will use 10% more fuel than one without
I have yet to see any difference in fuel economy with the cat removed.

Tom
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  #33  
Old 29.08.2014, 12:52
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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The 10% figure is nonsense anyway. ...

The additional few kilos of weight will of course make a marginal difference to efficiency, but only equivalent to carrying a spare tyre, a toolkit and an extra can of petrol.
Thanks Ace, I figured as much in post #25, .., the second part of my comment that you quote was my attempt at indicating the real benefit of cat. converters, a clumsy attempt at sarcasm i guess.
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Old 29.08.2014, 14:07
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

So the point being made is that burning more fuel and carrying around a cat is better environmentally than not burning it? Right.
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Old 29.08.2014, 14:07
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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H2O then? Awesome, I'll start saving my urine....
hahaha
The car could be a portable toilet!
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Old 29.08.2014, 14:12
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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not high efficiency, but low emission. the preheated e-cat reached optimal conversion conditions faster => more pollutants neutralized
Yes and to achieve this feat they need two (i.e. 1 more than the normal 1) huge lead-acid batteries in the boot (so big there is no room under the bonnet for them). What a great way to achieve low emissions. LOL

There again the 750 I had before that had two batteries too, however they weren't as big.
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Old 29.08.2014, 14:26
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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So the point being made is that burning more fuel and carrying around a cat is better environmentally than not burning it? Right.

I'm guessing you don't know a lot about catalysis
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  #38  
Old 29.08.2014, 14:32
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

Good thing is ,if you see some little mushroom on the horizon . Take a detour right away
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  #39  
Old 29.08.2014, 14:44
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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There again the 750 I had before that had two batteries too, however they weren't as big.
The E38 750 had an e-cat in the facelift (production after Sept. '98) for emissions. The two battery system was in place since '95 (beginning of production). The car is a limousine and had an abundance of electrical components that were expected to be operated by drivers waiting for their passengers. One 120Ah battery (and even smaller) is more than enough. Also the starter for that V12 besides sounding amazing, was eating up a lot of amps, and was better with one battery that was not powering stereo+TV+electric seats + the REST heating function with the aux water pump and the fans in the car.


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Catalytic converters are claimed to be good for the environment, but if you saw the devastation left after mining for the materials you might think different. Also they weigh, which causes a car to use more fuel to carry it about, also they need to be kept at an optimum temperature which in all cases means the car pushes extra fuel at them, i.e. uses more fuel to clean up.

Don't know about you but to be better environmentally it might be an idea to do stuff that menas you need put less fuel in in the first place, hence why it's a scam: claim to do one thing, does the exact opposite: whilst costing you plenty.

The purpose of cats are immediately-destroying pollutants, namely carbon monoxide (CO) and absolutely hateful nitrous oxides. If we didn't implement them, lean burning engines could have lower emissions of CO2 and lower consumption, but much higher NOx and instead of worrying about what will happen in 20 years of greenhousing the earth, we would die of poisoning much sooner.

There is always a trade off in using technology. There is no such thing as a free meal. If you want to move around fast you will need energy and you will emit something. Some people will always find something to complain about.



Energy will either be cheap but dirty, or expensive and less dirty. You can't have both. The only way humans have a zero impact on the environment is actually renouncing civilisation and everything that comes with it.

The matter of the fact remains though, that people will have to remember that other species would do the same with us having the same tools or capacities we do. Birds build nests, we build houses. It's a different scale but it's the fact that we can use resources on a much grander scale is what has allowed us to leave comfortably and involve ourselves with other things than basic survival.

So stop complaining about "it's better to not spend energy", and just promote more sensible use of energy. And no, taking the bicycle is not sensible if I have to move 35 ton cargo around Europe...



About fire safety:

When you talk about fire hazards in fuels, please have in mind the following:
A lithium battery has everything it needs to continue burn until it burns out and has nothing else. You can actually extinguish a gasoline or hydrogen fire. There is little to nothing you can do for a battery fire. You just wait it out. Even fire suppression systems, are just keeping it under "control" until it burns out. And while gas/hydrogen tanks need a shock and a spark to catch fire, a lithium battery can just spontaneously combust since it's (almost) always excited. Yes safe-guards in charging and power electronics systems reduce the statistical probability of that significantly, and they are considered perfectly safe, but because people know that gasoline/hydrogen are flammable doesn't mean they are unsafe.



Also, as an engineer that has partly designed, built, and raced a dedicated one-seater race car, seeing the percentages, guesses, and numbers thrown around like someone's talking about flour quantities in pancakes make me cringe. Throwing away the cat on its own makes nothing to economy, can make it much worse in everyday use of a car, and adding a battery to a two tonne car with a 5.6 l V12 engine with 2 valves on the head does pretty much jack shit to its 20lt/100Km consumption. Case in point the BMW 850Ci, which has one battery and can easily go to 25 and 30 lt/100Km when driven in a mildly fun way (have driven both in many occasions and a dear friend owns both among other late 90s behemoths).
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Old 29.08.2014, 15:05
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Re: Swatch plans car fueled by hydrogen and oxygen

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Case in point the BMW 850Ci, which has one battery and can easily go to 25 and 30 lt/100Km when driven in a mildly fun way (have driven both in many occasions and a dear friend owns both among other late 90s behemoths).
Both my 850s a 5.7 Alpina B12 and a csi MTech had two batteries.
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