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Old 27.03.2012, 02:00
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

In Basel the kids are allowed to leave swimming when they are sexually mature. So there is already a compromise from state side. The family interpretation of the Koran is stricter.

On the other side the court has to interpret the law as there is no exact law about this problem. The court evaluates if the mandatory schoolprogram or religious freedom is more important.
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Old 27.03.2012, 02:13
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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How do you know? Do you know the family in question?
Are you try to confuse me
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Old 27.03.2012, 02:26
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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In Basel the kids are allowed to leave swimming when they are sexually mature. So there is already a compromise from state side. The family interpretation of the Koran is stricter.

On the other side the court has to interpret the law as there is no exact law about this problem. The court evaluates if the mandatory schoolprogram or religious freedom is more important.
Doo car bombs go under religion freedom to ?geez i had to ask

Last edited by cannut; 27.03.2012 at 03:22.
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  #84  
Old 27.03.2012, 02:35
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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The cities were predominantly protestant. The catholic population was more in the mountains and rural areas (and even there not as a rule but the confessional map of Switzerland was very much a patchwork). So in the cities it would indeed have been quite rare to see Catholics prior to the Industrial Revolution.
And I would guess that prior to the Industrial Revolution cities were not such a concentration relative to the population as it is now. So I would still say that the percentage of Catholics today is not skewed since the 50s due to immigration to any significant extent. City or not, Switzerland has always had a large Catholic presense especially prior to Zwingli ;-)
Basically the sizable Catholic population in Switzerland are Swiss and so are not predominantly from immigrant stock.

(sorry to bang on about this minor topic on a muslim based thread, but you gave no other examples of Christian faiths being introduced to Switzerland apart from Catholicism, which was actually incorrect).

Last edited by higgybaby; 27.03.2012 at 02:45. Reason: sorry to get anal :-)
  #85  
Old 27.03.2012, 03:50
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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The cities were predominantly protestant. The catholic population was more in the mountains and rural areas (and even there not as a rule but the confessional map of Switzerland was very much a patchwork). So in the cities it would indeed have been quite rare to see Catholics prior to the Industrial Revolution.
Catholic cities were (still are) Luzern, Solothurn and Freiburg/Fribourg. Interesting is the influence onto the style of the old buildings in these three cities, which is Baroque, which makes the three cities particularily beautiful. In Zürich you have the Romanic style for instance with the Grossmünster and the St. Peter and the Gothic style with the Fraumünster. The Basler Münster is another famous place of Gothic architecture. Basel (largest city in CH until the late 1800s) and Bern and Zürich had overall a tendency for neo-classicism. Lugano is something of its own. The charming little city has buildings in Gothic, Baroque, Rokoko and Renaissance style. Lugano of course is nr 4 among the Catholic cities.

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And I would guess that prior to the Industrial Revolution cities were not such a concentration relative to the population as it is now. So I would still say that the percentage of Catholics today is not skewed since the 50s due to immigration to any significant extent. City or not, Switzerland has always had a large Catholic presense especially prior to Zwingli ;-)
Basically the sizable Catholic population in Switzerland are Swiss and so are not predominantly from immigrant stock.

(sorry to bang on about this minor topic on a muslim based thread, but you gave no other examples of Christian faiths being introduced to Switzerland apart from Catholicism, which was actually incorrect).
Before Zwingli and Calvin, everybody was Catholic. But as mentioned, the immigration from Catholic nations increased the Catholic share considerably, so that there would be a Catholic majority now, without the presence of Greek-Orthodox, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu people. Furtheron, the Catholics lost the Civil War of 1847/48 when General Dufour who successfully merged the union army by some shrewd tactics conquered the Separatists.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 27.03.2012 at 04:04.
  #86  
Old 27.03.2012, 04:29
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

I'm personally a big fan of this ruling because it is in line with secular and Enlightenment values. It is ok to be religious and pray to your flavor of deity in private, but once you start demanding that public institutions bend their rules to cater to your ridiculous flavor of juju worship, it fragments society.

You create a two-tiered system where you have various factions of beliefs carving out parallel systems and societies that become ever more segregated as the various factions gain power, which is the norm in many places in the world today.

I honestly think that if you are such a strict Muslim that showing a bit of leg is obscene, you would probably be more comfortable living in a country where Islamic dress is enforced under pain of beatings and/or imprisonment as it is in many Islamic countries.

Christianity has spawned enough completely ridiculous laws as it is that have held back the progress of mankind -- it is my humble opinion that it is a very bad idea to give other religions a seat at the table to further manacle society with their own particular flavors of insanity. Halal and/or kosher food choices mandated in public institutions? Public street prayers? "Local" sharia law courts? Banning alcohol, gambling and pork? No thank you.

I like it that France, Switzerland and others are trying to stay as secular as possible, and I really hope to see further rulings like this. I'm all for cultural diversity, but not diversity that will limit my own life choices for the sake of someone else's religion.
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Old 27.03.2012, 06:18
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

Ok, so I guess it's time for a bit more disclosure here.

I'm one of these "Allah beggars" that people seem to hate for some particular reason.

I'm not a scholar and I don't particularly think that I am an authority on anything, but from my understanding as long as there is no obscenity, touching, holding hands or any sexualized behaviour then it is permissible.

The only condition is that they must cover the 'awrah' which means they should wear shorts and maybe a swimming shirt and maybe a cap for the girl.

The rest of the discussion about boys and girls (especially young ones) not mixing because of religious reason is crap.

At age 7 or 9 I can hardly imagine string bikini's and tiny bathing costumes. I don't think at 7 or 9 kids are even sexually aware of the 'other'
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Old 27.03.2012, 06:24
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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(If someone speaks arabic here, please help me to translate the word Tawakkol and Tawaakol)
Reliance on God
  #89  
Old 27.03.2012, 06:50
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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Doo car bombs go under religion freedom to ?geez i had to ask
I guess the good christian Breivik killing people from his own country to somehow get at Muslims is an example of religious freedom too, then.

Obviously you can judge the actions of 1+ billion people by the behaviour of such a minority.
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Old 27.03.2012, 07:47
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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I guess the good christian Breivik killing people from his own country to somehow get at Muslims is an example of religious freedom too, then.

Obviously you can judge the actions of 1+ billion people by the behaviour of such a minority.
I think the tone of the commentary here, both this and the car bomb point, is extremely low. Car bombs and Mass Murderers are criminal atocities, I don't think that needs to be questioned.
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Old 27.03.2012, 07:55
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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I'm one of these "Allah beggars" that people seem to hate for some particular reason.
Do you wear a big badge with "I am a Victim too" on it ? People don't universally hate other religions so please take the massive victimization complex elsewhere.

It's all rather blown out of proportion as SBrinz said. A couple of parents with strong beliefs attempted to raise them above the law and are stopped by the legal process itself (in the way of a fine). This is how the law works in most cases believe it or not. If you refuse to pay a parking fine because you dont believe you should, you'll go to court and the law may end up issuing you with a fine. Religious belief (from any denomination) sometimes attempts to cast itself as above the law for a particular field but with a slow, predictable monotony the law normally wins and despite much screaming and howling, the religious belief loses out.

I think its a win-win situation in a way: If they dont like the CHF1400 fine they will let their kids swim next time making the children (I would expect) quite happy. If they stick to their religious beliefs and remain in switzerland then if its anything like parking fines they'll get fined more and more each time meaning there is more money for the canton to spend on cantonal resources, such as new swimming pools for kids.

As is said many times: "It may not be popular, but its the law".
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Old 27.03.2012, 08:09
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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I like it that France, Switzerland and others are trying to stay as secular as possible, and I really hope to see further rulings like this. I'm all for cultural diversity, but not diversity that will limit my own life choices for the sake of someone else's religion.
Europe considers itself secular only because everyone does the same thing, i.e. christianity/catholicism, and that the younger set don't remember or were never curious enough to figure out the religious basis for so many traditions. Just the mere mention of repealing the bans on sabbath shopping brings near hysteria from it's proponents. This seems fairly consistent in that someone wanting an 'exception' is being portrayed as possibly opening the floodgates to non-conformity and, heaven forfend, variety!

You're all for diversity as long as that diversity conforms to your diversity. It's like livin' in the Midwest!
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Old 27.03.2012, 08:21
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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Europe considers itself secular only because everyone does the same thing, i.e. christianity/catholicism, and that the younger set don't remember or were never curious enough to figure out the religious basis for so many traditions. Just the mere mention of repealing the bans on sabbath shopping brings near hysteria from it's proponents. This seems fairly consistent in that someone wanting an 'exception' is being portrayed as possibly opening the floodgates to non-conformity and, heaven forfend, variety!

You're all for diversity as long as that diversity conforms to your diversity. It's like livin' in the Midwest!
Wait. What? You can't shop on a Saturday?
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Old 27.03.2012, 08:31
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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Wait. What? You can't shop on a Saturday?
Nice try, but Judaism isn't a majority religion and it also doesn't hold exclusive license on Sabbath which is synonymous with Sunday in most Christian religions (though I'm sure there are some which refuse to use it since it is also used by Jews...).
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Old 27.03.2012, 08:33
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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Nice try, but Judaism isn't a majority religion and it also doesn't hold exclusive license on Sabbath which is synonymous with Sunday in most Christian religions (though I'm sure there are some which refuse to use it since it is also used by Jews...).
Maybe you shouldn't use a Hebrew word for your day of rest then?
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Old 27.03.2012, 08:39
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

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Maybe you shouldn't use a Hebrew word for your day of rest then?
It's not originally Hebrew, nor was it first used by the Jews. Keep in mind it is also related to Sabbatical. It simply means a 'day of rest'. My OED is currently in a sea-going crate, but the word and its use does pre-date the Jews.
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Old 27.03.2012, 09:49
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Re: Muslim parents refused childrens' swimming lessons: fined Fr 1'400

About time to close off this thread judging from the recent posts.
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