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Old 27.03.2012, 15:10
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Instead, how about "Swimming with dolphins" ? Wouldn't that keep everyone happy?
good point, let's add "swimming with the fishes"
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Old 03.04.2012, 17:40
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

Still beats swimming with sharks.
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Old 03.04.2012, 20:47
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Still beats swimming with sharks.
The court simply followed the rule that in Switzerland, Swiss laws are valid. There is no reason to yield to some demands of Muslim fundamentalists. Or any other strict religious grouping. If somebody is not ready to accept Swiss laws, Switzerland has never built a well up to prevent people from leaving
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  #44  
Old 03.04.2012, 21:05
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

I think that is crazy, some expats pretend that the country their are living change just for them... This is the way it works here, if you are not , the go back to your country!
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  #45  
Old 03.04.2012, 21:15
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I think that is crazy, some expats pretend that the country their are living change just for them... This is the way it works here, if you are not , the go back to your country!
where did the article say that they were expats? I mean, the odds aren't great, everybody knows that all expats live in private complexes where only their native tongue is spoken, and for sure they don't let their kids mix with the local schools.
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Old 03.04.2012, 22:57
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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where did the article say that they were expats? I mean, the odds aren't great, everybody knows that all expats live in private complexes where only their native tongue is spoken, and for sure they don't let their kids mix with the local schools.
Most people from Muslim countries cannot afford either living in compounds or to send their kids to private schools. Add to this that private schools in Switzerland have to act in accordance with the directives of the Cantonal "Erziehungs-Direktion" and so basically have to act according to the same guidelines as the "official" state-schools. Beside the point that there up to now are no Arabic, Turkish or Albanian language private schools in evidence
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Old 04.04.2012, 02:13
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

I don't understand... 7 & 8 year old girls in islam are not yet women, so they can do as they please quite freely.

And if not, there's always the burkini.

I wonder if parents would have been fined if their kids had had a mortal fear of swimming... or something (don't laugh, I actually know someone like this)
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Old 04.04.2012, 02:17
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Most people from Muslim countries cannot afford either living in compounds or to send their kids to private schools. Add to this that private schools in Switzerland have to act in accordance with the directives of the Cantonal "Erziehungs-Direktion" and so basically have to act according to the same guidelines as the "official" state-schools. Beside the point that there up to now are no Arabic, Turkish or Albanian language private schools in evidence
I find it strange that parents would even consider sending their kids to Switzerland to get an Albanian education. I mean, that's what Albania is for.
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Old 04.04.2012, 02:43
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I don't understand... 7 & 8 year old girls in islam are not yet women, so they can do as they please quite freely.

And if not, there's always the burkini.

I wonder if parents would have been fined if their kids had had a mortal fear of swimming... or something (don't laugh, I actually know someone like this)
Had their kids had a "mortal fear of swimming" they, I mean the kids, would have been provided psychiatrist care. The Psychiatrist services in Zürich are quite considerable.
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Old 04.04.2012, 02:50
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I find it strange that parents would even consider sending their kids to Switzerland to get an Albanian education. I mean, that's what Albania is for.
In pre-independence days, first of all in "old-Yugoslavia-days" many Kosovari emigrated to Switzerland, in the years of trouble even more (including Prime Minister Thaci) came to Switzerland. They did not "send their kids to Switzerland to get an Albanian education" but "en-famille" escaped to Switzerland no longer to get molested by the Serbians. Most Kosovari there and here in fact are rather secularist, and in fact the same applies to Turks and Arabs and other Muslims, but SOME are rather fundamentalist or at the very least rather strict. Albania is the western part of the Albanian speaking areas there, the eastern part is Kosovo. Both countries are Muslim majority wise, but a majority of those Muslims are not fundamentalist not even rigorous. In case of Turkey, the amazing thing is that some Turks try to push through ideas which are NOT done in Turkey.
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Old 04.04.2012, 07:57
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

Does anyone know what the headline was for the article in Le Matin? After all the article says it was reported in their online edition, so just wondering if The Local simply used the same headline as the Swiss newspaper did.

I'd be more concerned about the parents' need to teach their children shame. What are they supposed to be ashamed of? Their bodies, the fact that they're girls/women in the first place? Why should parents need to teach their children this, what reglious significance could it possibly have, for God's sake?
  #52  
Old 04.04.2012, 08:30
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Does anyone know what the headline was for the article in Le Matin? After all the article says it was reported in their online edition, so just wondering if The Local simply used the same headline as the Swiss newspaper did.

I'd be more concerned about the parents' need to teach their children shame. What are they supposed to be ashamed of? Their bodies, the fact that they're girls/women in the first place? Why should parents need to teach their children this, what reglious significance could it possibly have, for God's sake?
Those parents believe that, not parents. Those parents think it has some religious signification, not parents.

Those.
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  #53  
Old 04.04.2012, 09:08
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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What reglious significance could it possibly have, for God's sake?
I believe that specific issue is based on culture - please note that in middle east some christian families behave the same as well.

Children that are not yet adult (means not yet at the age where they can give birth), are having wide range of freedom in terms of their acts and the way they dress.


If your question about how in general religous significance request women to cover themselves, I found this article may help a bit understanding why adult women in Islam cover themselves, again please note that this doesn't apply on a 7 years old girl that is not yet adult, this is just an answer to the general question if that is what is asked, otherwise if it is not your question then kindly skip reading the article.

http://pilgrim-of-light.instablogs.c...er-themselves/


Back to this specific case, the family was not allowed to use the muslim swimsuit (as per their say in a tv show), and also they did not get a good explanation on how the school would deal with aqua phobia children that have fear from water and swimming.

The family added as well that they refused that their children make some swimming practises in groups of a male and female where some exercises the girls feel shy to do when a boy is stretching his hands to balance the girl's body while they are floating over the water.

At the end, the family used their right to object in a legal way, and I hope they respected and accepted the court in applying the swiss rules, in the country that hosts them regardless if they stay as guests or as locals.


-----------

General off the topic comment (not an answer to Medea Fleecestealer, just a general comment):

I have a personal opinion about some fights happened here on the forum due to religions and belief, I think the best for those who need to know about some religious rules and concepts is to target an organisation that represents those believers, where people their base their answers on studies and can better explain reasons behind acts and can provide references other than just expressing how they feel about it.

For muslim specific issues, I found the wikipedia link contains names of those organisations / associations in Switzerland , if someone really needs to know and understand, the best is to contact them, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Switzerland
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  #54  
Old 07.04.2012, 11:34
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Back to this specific case, the family was not allowed to use the muslim swimsuit (as per their say in a tv show), and also they did not get a good explanation on how the school would deal with aqua phobia children that have fear from water and swimming.

The family added as well that they refused that their children make some swimming practises in groups of a male and female where some exercises the girls feel shy to do when a boy is stretching his hands to balance the girl's body while they are floating over the water.
A) THat "Muslim swimsuit" is NOT accepted as "swimsuit" at all here
B) They most likely spoke with a teacher and not with a psychiatrist of the "Schulamt" . Most teachers tend to ignore aqua-phobia as a psychical problem and simply regard such children as "wasserscheu"
C) that boys are instructed to balance the body of girls during swimming instruction is normal . The idea is that many boys are much stronger than girl

A2) At a time when swimming places prohibit long "shorts" or boys wearing shorts over swimming slips, you cannot expect that almost full clothing is accepted

I am sorry, but those families live in Switzerland, and so by law have to accept and respect Swiss laws and regulations. If they do not, they risk that their children are taken away from them to be given into suitable care

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I believe that specific issue is based on culture - please note that in middle east some christian families behave the same as well.
Basically, it is to be mentioned that for example the Christian community in your country is one of the oldest Christian communities in the world, and that there were/are rather old Christian communities in countries like Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

************************************************** ****************************

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http://pilgrim-of-light.instablogs.c...er-themselves/

Actually HIJAB provides a safe and secure situation for women to work and have effective role in society. They regard HIJAB as immunity not limitation. They see that with HIJAB society does not look at them just as pieces of beauty but honors them because of their reason, knowledge and skills.
Whomever wrote this is not aware of realities overhere.
A) the Hijab rather blocks such women from any effective role in society, as they are regarded as NOT being part of society
B) Hijab wearing women are NOT "honoured" but regarded as strange
-
C) If they are splendid in regard to knowledge and skills, they will be respected professionally, but will still be regarded as outsiders, and NOT as part of society
-

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Old 07.04.2012, 11:40
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I am sorry, but those families live in Switzerland, and so by law have to accept and respect Swiss laws and regulations. If they do not, they risk that their children are taken away from them to be given into suitable care
I don't see a point thst show that they did not respect the swiss law, they objected via the legal channels.
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Old 07.04.2012, 11:59
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I don't see a point thst show that they did not respect the swiss law, they objected via the legal channels.
Everybody has the right to object to existing regulations via the legal channels, true, But once, the legal verdict gets issued they will have to act accordingly.

They even then will have a final option and that is to send her girl to a psychiatrist who possibly may issue a kind of "order" that the girl for psychical reasons cannot participate. If the psychiatrist however denies a psychical problem and concludes that the whole problem is based on the parents, it will be the end of the road
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Old 07.04.2012, 12:00
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

Slightly off topic, in the USA some non-swimming parents are frightened of their children taking swimming lessons,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11172054
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Old 07.04.2012, 13:03
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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If your question about how in general religous significance request women to cover themselves, I found this article may help a bit understanding why adult women in Islam cover themselves, again please note that this doesn't apply on a 7 years old girl that is not yet adult, this is just an answer to the general question if that is what is asked, otherwise if it is not your question then kindly skip reading the article.

http://pilgrim-of-light.instablogs.c...er-themselves/
fyi, sexual harassment quite often has nothing to do with "sex", not to mention that, generally speaking, the track record of countries such as Iran on issues such as sexual harassment is utterly appaling. the summary you've linked is nothing more than propaganda - the Islamic practice of regulating the manner in which women dress goes back centuries upon centuries and has absolutely nothing to do with providing women with "immunity".
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Old 07.04.2012, 14:33
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

The problem is not the way a woman dress up but the way some people think it is ok to abuse women for the way they dress.
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Old 08.04.2012, 14:17
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Slightly off topic, in the USA some non-swimming parents are frightened of their children taking swimming lessons,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11172054
Do not forget that a vital part of the swimming instruction program in Switzerland is the many lakes around here, where in the 1950ies and 60ies, dozens of people, by majority foreigners !, drowned in the lakes. Why ? Because quite many of the foreigners in question were used to the seashore back home where you could/can walk out for a few hundreds meters without swimming for a moments, while here, after a few centimeters, you are in deep water.

Now, when in the USA, in vast stretches of that country, there are few lakes around. And the next seashore usually is more than 1000 kms away. Just look at USA realities. Amazing is that many people in Boston and New York CAN swim, even are good and enthusiastic swimmers. While in Texas, good swimmers are rare. I still remember my first visit to Texas. I was enroute in Dallas and found a nice parking lot where I could take sensational photos of starting B52 bombers. But then temperatures got up and I drove towards Fort Worth, and to my right detected a kind of artificial lake. Went there, and had the "non-nonswimmer swimmer area almost to myself. An old man when coming to his side complimented me for my swimming capability. I discussed this with the man, nice and interesting. And in the evening, back in Marshall, discussed it with Uncle Bill (born Schaffhausen 1900, over to the USA 1905, died Marshall/TX 1992) who also considered the size of the two countries (he was citizen still of both). He of course, while having learnt to swim in his earlier life, forget about swimming as he had forgotten his native German at this age (1976) .
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